The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Now that JC is hurt physically (aside from emotionally), the team should take advantage of the situation, and:

1) "Rest" (Bench) Campbell and insert Collins in the starting lineup.

* Collins needs to work all week with the starters, and get comfortable. Clearly, he won't come in prepared midway through a game and have success behind a leaky line.

2) Allow JC to heal, and give Collins a chance to put together some game film for his next team to gauge his abilities on.

*I say 4 games (the time ey is gone). Since he plays with mostly 2nd stringers, he may mesh better with some of the new guys in the mix. Best case scenario: Todd turns this team around, and gets us to better than .500. Worst case scenario, the team continues to struggle, and we're fighting for the #1 draft pick next year.

3) Reinsert JC into the starting lineup, and let him finish out the year with his favorite receiver, ey, and his arsenal of receivers.

*He, too, during this stretch, can show his prospective employers what a healthy Campbell can do for them next year.

4) Retire the #17 Jersey.

*Not in honor of JC, but to preserve the legacy of the #17, and REFUSE TO EVER LET THAT NUMBER BE WORN BY ANOTHER QB.

Thanks for your services, JC. Get well soon, and good luck finding employment in the NFL during the offseason. - TRO

Maybe they should alternate every week, because they are both gonna be injured pretty severely after every game.

Right, a different system is not going to change the fact that he runs INTO most sacks.

I guess he will show us what he can do next year when he's with another team.

frankcal20 wrote:I guess he will show us what he can do next year when he's with another team.

I bet he's just going to rip up the league with the Calgary Stampeders

I'm sure you all know that I've been saying this since mid 2007 .. and now you all see it too ... Jason Campbell is an enigma.

While (most) everyone was saying he needed time to get comfortable in the offense (the old one and this new one too), what was really happening was that he seemed to digress as time went on .. the complete opposite of what you would expect. Most human beings get better with practice (whatever it is they practice) .. but Campbell gets worse. It's inexplicable, and makes no sense at all.

Look back to 2006 ... those 7 games he threw for 10 TD's. Never since then has he thrown more TDs than games played. He digressed during the 2007 season in his second year under Saunders offense. And he digressed from the start of 2008 until the end. In his second year under Zorn, he's worse than he was last year.

This has been the pattern all along. Hard to explain why, but thats what has happened.

PulpExposure wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I guess he will show us what he can do next year when he's with another team.

I bet he's just going to rip up the league with the Calgary Stampeders

That is just nasty ...

RayNAustin wrote:I'm sure you all know that I've been saying this since mid 2007 .. and now you all see it too ...

People have been saying Campbell was done and would never be a good QB since November of 2006 when he made his first starts. Does that mean they are the most perceptive here?

The question is when that observation is warranted and borne out by enough practice and on-field experience. Pulling Campbell and moving on to Plan B back in 2007 would have been a hasty judgment by the coaches, IMO.

While (most) everyone was saying he needed time to get comfortable in the offense (the old one and this new one too), what was really happening was that he seemed to digress as time went on .. the complete opposite of what you would expect. Most human beings get better with practice (whatever it is they practice) .. but Campbell gets worse. It's inexplicable, and makes no sense at all.

This is out of touch with reality. His play showed marked increases each year, IMO. (Take a look at his QB rating, for example—it's consistently gotten better.) It's just that it was never enough and it never punched him through to that higher plane: the level of being a solid starter in the NFL.

Anyway, I hope the above was written with tongue in cheek.

Irn-Bru wrote:This is out of touch with reality. His play showed marked increases each year, IMO. (Take a look at his QB rating, for example—it's consistently gotten better.)

Anyway, I hope the above was written with tongue in cheek.

Then I guess you weren't watching the same games I have. His QB rating got better not because he did, but because of the WCO he was playing in -- in particular in 2007 when his rating when up 7 points. The prior 2 years it remainded relatively the same; which is the same case for this year. He did not show improvement. He did not improve on the things that he was deficient in: such as deep passing, mobility within the pocket, decision making, quick progressions, leadership. Those are unchanged since the day he was drafted.

On top of that, he plays a game that people have characterized as "limited mistakes". This may be correct in that he doesn't take chances deep, but he has not limited mistakes. He has 7 INTs and 10 fumbles this year alone -- both things he hasn't improved on since 2006.

The fact is that a QB rating improvement of 1 or 2 points is not improvement. The large increase in his 3rd year was due to the offense. It is no secret that QBs in a WCO have higher QB ratings. But the real stats -- TDs, INTs, passes over 20 and 40 yards, yards per game, and points scored -- have either stayed EXACTLY the same or decreased (on a per game basis year to year). Where's the improvement????

markshark84 wrote:Where's the improvement????

What you're saying is that Jason Campbell from 2006 would be doing better, or at worst no different, than Campbell of 2009?

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Where's the improvement????

What you're saying is that Jason Campbell from 2006 would be doing better, or at worst no different, than Campbell of 2009?

What I am saying is that JC's body of work over the course of this season is not significantly different from his body of work from 2006 on a per year, game by game, basis, with a very few exceptions. I have no way of knowing whether the 2006 JC would be THE SAME as 2009, but based on the product he has placed on the field, I don't see how you can definitively say that he would, without a doubt, be better -- which I believe the standard should be. Usually players improve with experience.

Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement. We don't have a time machine, so it would be difficult to prove definatively, but based on his progress as a QB, both tangible and intangible, I don't see how you can say there has been noticable improvement from JC -- other than the fact that he is no longer a rookie, which should be taken into account as well.

frankcal20 wrote:If he does become a free agent at the end of the year, I don't think he'll be on the market long. I think there are enough people who understand that he hasn't been put in a situation to win here and that he has enough talent to win in this league under the right situation. I could see him end up in a town like Carolina, Houston, Buffalo or even Minnesota.

Houston: Schabb>JC
Buffalo: Edwards>JC
Minnesota: Favre, Rosenfelds > JC (we also shopped him there last offseason to no avail)
Carolina: most likely draft a QB

He may end up somewhere. But in no way will he start for a team.

IF ITS NOT CAMPBELL

NOT COLLINS

IS IT BRENNAN?

DO THE SKINS HAVE A FRANCHISE QB ON THE ROSTER?

Have to say that if I were a fan of another team I would dread the thought of JC coming to be the starting QB for my team. Maybe Miami .... he can spend a lot of the time on the sidelines watching the Wildcat.

Manchester_Redskin wrote:Have to say that if I were a fan of another team I would dread the thought of JC coming to be the starting QB for my team. Maybe Miami .... he can spend a lot of the time on the sidelines watching the Wildcat.

Henne > JC

I go on the dolphins messageboards occassionaly only because I have some team contacts, and the fans are saying they have their QB for the next 10 years in Henne. I have even heard fans say that Henne is the best miami QB since Marino. I don't think they are looking to replace Henne with a QB that has averaged about 13 ppg over his career. Their biggest concern right now is getting WRs for Henne to throw to. They are fully invested in Henne. After all, he is putting up about 30 ppg (and is 2-1 with their only loss against NO) in his 3 starts after taking over for Pennington.

Trust me, I have thought about where JC could go after washington, mainly because I fear that he will be resigned after testing the FA waters and coming up empty --- and we sign him for next to nothing. In the offseason, we literally shopped him everywhere to no avail. I cannot think of one team (maybe with the exception of CLE, OAK -- but CLE didn't want him last year and OAK appears invested in Russell) where he could even compete as the starting QB. I thought about JAX and STL, but they are definetely taking high round QBs in the upcoming draft.

DO THE SKINS HAVE A FRANCHISE QB ON THE ROSTER?

The answer to that question is obviously no.

Why not play ARE for the rest of the year at QB. Not neccessarily in the single wing, but in the regular offense. We're gonna need a player who can escape the pass rush and he can throw it. I dunno, just a thought. Maybe the team could start having some fun out there, and I would actually enjoy watching it.

On second thought...how about Snyder suiting up. I would actually pay big money to see that.

chiefhog44 wrote:On second thought...how about Snyder suiting up. I would actually pay big money to see that.

The NFL does not allow players in young children league uniforms.

markshark84 wrote:Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement.

I think it's clear in watching him play, and that the stats bear it out.

Mind you, I don't think he's a good QB, and you won't find me defending him. He won't be a starter in the NFL next year. But that doesn't mean I have to bash every aspect of his career, or pretend that he hasn't improved when his play says otherwise.

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement.

I think it's clear in watching him play, and that the stats bear it out.

What stats? Where? His QB rating which was a result of the WCO? I gave you a ton of stats showing aspects of his game where he has not improved; where are yours? Do I have to take your word for it? You provide ZERO support.

And I am not "bashing" every aspect of his career. I am merely proving that he has not improved. When I hear something that I don't believe is accurate -- I will call it out. He was a draft bust. He has not improved as a QB and definetely has not improved for a typical 5 year veteran. Is that a bad thing to say? Personally, I don't think I am saying anything that isn't OBVIOUS.

markshark84 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement.

I think it's clear in watching him play, and that the stats bear it out.

What stats? Where? His QB rating which was a result of the WCO? I gave you a ton of stats showing aspects of his game where he has not improved; where are yours? Do I have to take your word for it? You provide ZERO support.

And I am not "bashing" every aspect of his career. I am merely proving that he has not improved. When I hear something that I don't believe is accurate -- I will call it out. He was a draft bust. He has not improved as a QB and definetely has not improved for a typical 5 year veteran. Is that a bad thing to say? Personally, I don't think I am saying anything that isn't OBVIOUS.

I guess none then --- because they DO NOT EXIST.

markshark84 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement.

I think it's clear in watching him play, and that the stats bear it out.

What stats? Where? His QB rating which was a result of the WCO? I gave you a ton of stats showing aspects of his game where he has not improved; where are yours? Do I have to take your word for it? You provide ZERO support.

And I am not "bashing" every aspect of his career. I am merely proving that he has not improved. When I hear something that I don't believe is accurate -- I will call it out. He was a draft bust. He has not improved as a QB and definetely has not improved for a typical 5 year veteran. Is that a bad thing to say? Personally, I don't think I am saying anything that isn't OBVIOUS.

I guess none then --- because they DO NOT EXIST.

Are you arguing against yourself?
JC stats have improved every year, but that doesn't make him a good QB. I don't think it is a system thing either. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a good QB in the NFL. He just doesn't have that winning quality. The experiment failed, and the time to cut our losses has come. Actually it came a while back, but we are where we are.

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Is it obvious that JC is better now than he was in 2006? I don't think so and I don't think that there is enough to make a valid arguement to support his improvement.

I think it's clear in watching him play, and that the stats bear it out.

What stats? Where? His QB rating which was a result of the WCO? I gave you a ton of stats showing aspects of his game where he has not improved; where are yours? Do I have to take your word for it? You provide ZERO support.

And I am not "bashing" every aspect of his career. I am merely proving that he has not improved. When I hear something that I don't believe is accurate -- I will call it out. He was a draft bust. He has not improved as a QB and definetely has not improved for a typical 5 year veteran. Is that a bad thing to say? Personally, I don't think I am saying anything that isn't OBVIOUS.

I guess none then --- because they DO NOT EXIST.

Are you arguing against yourself?
JC stats have improved every year, but that doesn't make him a good QB. I don't think it is a system thing either. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a good QB in the NFL. He just doesn't have that winning quality. The experiment failed, and the time to cut our losses has come. Actually it came a while back, but we are where we are.

Not to mention my main indicator for saying he has improved is that I've witnessed his improvement on the field. I've watched it. He doesn't make the same dumb throws he made in his first few starts. Some of those first interceptions were truly cringe-worthy. He's quicker in getting the team to the line of scrimmage and running a smoother offense. He makes better decisions and hits his target more often. (Even with receivers that have no hands, his completion percentage has gone up consistently.) He's shown better awareness about when to pull it in and run for some yardage, rather than continuing to flounder before taking a sack.

markshark goes to Campbell's stat page to find data that will confirm his already-held view. He downplays any evidence he might find to the contrary. Then, with a newly-reinforced opinion in hand, he comes here and pretends that positive developments in Campbell's stat lines don't exist. It's an interesting way of developing an argument, but I find it to be unconvincing. (Mostly because it ignores the positive developments in Campbell's stat lines.)

Nevertheless, I'd appeal to anyone (including markshark) who wants to step back a moment, and think about things a little more objectively, to visit his stats page. The numbers do bear it out, even though they also don't tell the whole story.

Got to agree with FFA and JSPB on this - Campbell has improved but he is not close to being a very good NFL QB

the real problem right now is who could we start as QB given the condition of the line and the other players on offense - I do not think Campbell is very good at all but I do not agree that we should just try another QB just because "we" think it might help - I think if Zorn (or any coach that had input) thought that a QB change might help this team then that would happen - we need a lot of help for this offense but putting someone else in there as QB just because a bunch of ignorant fans think it is going to make this offense work better is not what is going to happen - that's fantasy football stuff

these coaches are trying to win games - the coaches and players may not have what it takes to do that but in my opinion they are trying to win this game this week

you want to change the QB make the effort to be the guy that can do that