The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

frankcal20 wrote:Win's are not individual stat's, TD's are but as a QB, you are depending mostly on other's as well. Again, we had a ton of drops last week and in season's past. Search that and you'll see numerous threads about that.

I didn't see (in the half that I saw) any drops. I saw MANY bad passes, but no drops. As far as depending on others...isn't HE supposed to be the leader? MAKE something happen, Jason. Stop missing on the long ball and stop staring down receivers and stop dumping it off. All you're doing is padding stats and NOT winning games.

frankcal20 wrote:I'm not going to kill him b/c he threw a pick. I was happy he tried to force one. Did you see all notice he had a passer rating of 107.77? I'm just not going to buy into what Harrison said. Of course he's not going to strike fear in defenses. There arn't many QB's in the league that do. I would say the normal 5-7 QB's.

Campbell is no where near their level but I would put him up there in the middle to 10-15 range in talent. What he still lacks is experience. Given time under the same system, he will get better and we've seen that week in week out.

I also think the reason that we've had one WR have big stats each week is b/c the defenses we've played have shut down the guys from the previous week.

Really? He almost threw another pick, had the guy caught the ball it would have been returned for a TD. How about his near fumble and the horrible throws he made?

That show is going for ratings by having the opinionated Harrison on there. His only strength is is brutal honesty. Yes he has played the game but when you listen to his commentary, alot of it's taking shots at people...

Having the "x"th best stats doesn't necessarily make you the "x"th best QB.

With the MNF game left to go, JC is now:

5th in comp. pct. -- 67.6
9th in yards -- 793 (he'll be 10th if Romo has 310)
9th in QB rating -- 92.5

But is he a top-10 QB?

Perhaps to the untrained eye!

You watch this guy and you just don't see the qualities that give you the belief that he can make the big plays at the big times.

Champsturf wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I'll be more than happy to update those tomorrow then.

I completely disagree with you frank, in regards to your opinion of Campbell. However, I want to thank you VERY much for the link so that I could watch the game. I couldn't get on here until about halftime, so I missed the entire first half, but from the sounds of it, I'm glad. I didn't even like the second half, but was glad that I could see it.

Thanks! Seriously!

I don't think he actually did you any favors ... unless pain is your thing.

tribeofjudah wrote:Did anyone else hear the comments from Rodney during a roundtable?
He said that Jcam is nothing but a 2nd string qb who was elevated to starter.... Huh? That was a pretty low blow.....

I didn't hear it, but it's what I've been saying since 2007.

Campbell was appointed the starter in 2006. He's never been sat .. not even for a single game in spite of lengthy stretches of poor play. Only an injury removed this travesty from the field briefly, and in spite of the fact that his replacement played circles around him production wise, he was once again appointed the undisputed starter in 2008. He never earned the starter position, he was given it based on the draft. Had Campbell been a 5th round pick, he would have been released long ago.

Now this is purely speculation on my part, but I think what happened with Todd Collins played a part in Gibbs decision to leave with a year left on his contract. Campbell was Gibbs pick .. and after 1 1/2 years of sideline study, and another 1 1/2 seasons as the starter, Collins came in cold and played circles around Jason Campbell. Of course I'm sure Gibbs was glad that he did, but at the same time, it had to be slightly embarrassing to a Hall of Fame coach that always stressed playing the players that gave the team the best chance to win.

And with Campbell, we've seen a repeating pattern, over and over again. He's very inconsistent, and streaky. He goes on long stretches of being unable to move the ball or make critical plays. He racks up some impressive yards between the 20's, but falls flat on his face when it comes to scoring.

If Jason Campbell was a car, he'd be a Jaguar. A luxurious sports car with considerable horsepower ... everyone would love to own one ... and nothing looks cooler in the driveway. Unfortunately, it spends more time in the shop than it does on the highway And after spending tons of money just to keep them running, most owners wish they'd never bought them in the first place.

frankcal20 wrote:I'm not sure where the progression was on those plays. I don't know the plays but he played lights out imo today.

Lights out? How about the 3rd down conversions 2-10? How about 14 points coming from one busted coverage play to Moss, where he had plenty of time and the other in prevent time. Where was he the first half?

Did you watch the game. Campbell was a no show until the game was in desperation mode. I didn't see any badly dropped passes that caused it. I did see many balls thrown where the defenders (because they were double or triple covered) were in better position. He's awful at the deep ball. He prefers check downs to throwing in the middle of the field and reading defenses.

JC has become a QB that only plays well when were in desperation mode or when someone is wide, wide open with plenty of protection. They are a dime a dozen, don't kid yourselves.

Let's not forget that our last two trips to the playoffs were when Mark Brunell led the team and Todd Collins pulled off 4 straight at the end of the season. This is season four, and I'm not looking for a fantasy QB like Jon Kitna was a few years ago. He put up great stats, but the lost most of their games. At least Kitna scored some points.

Boomer Esiasion on NY's WFAN 660am just lambasted JC on the RADIO ..He said a qb IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE to two things ....3rd down conversions---and POINTS

and Since CAMPBELL has started we have a bottom Five team in both areas since the start of 2008-which is btw the way a HARDCORE FACT--and yesterday was another affirmation of those areas

Esiason said the Redskins are bonkers for not just trying to see if Collins to put up more points than this

dont know if I agree with that but--- JC is not good at the most apects of the QB position ....Yardage in a loss means squat!!!!

MEZZSKIN wrote:Boomer Esiasion on NY's WFAN 660am just lambasted JC on the RADIO ..He said a qb IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE to two things ....3rd down conversions---and POINTS

and Since CAMPBELL has started we have a bottom Five team in both areas since the start of 2008-which is btw the way a HARDCORE FACT--and yesterday was another affirmation of those areas

Esiason said the Redskins are bonkers for not just trying to see if Collins to put up more points than this

dont know if I agree with that but--- JC is not good at the most apects of the QB position ....Yardage in a loss means squat!!!!

I think it was SkinsFreak that was asking for so-called "experts" that were saying that Collins should play. Well, here we have it. So that's two former successful players, Harrison and Boomer, calling out JC as not being starting caliber.

Hahahaha. Bonkers aye? That's one way to say it.

I just knew ... before the game ever started that Campbell would rack up some big yardage numbers. He has had his best statistical games against the Lions over the past couple of years. And I also knew we'd put up a paltry number of points. What I didn't expect is that the defense would play so poorly in the first half, but, I think our getting stuffed on the 1 in our first series fired up the Lions, and unconsciously affected the defense right from the start.

For all of the apologists out there ... take note of the rookie QB that didn't have two or three years to learn the "system". He worked the hard count on the d-line and got a couple of offsides on them. He made some nice throws on third downs to extend drives, and all of the "slippery" balls must have been given to Campbell, because Stafford didn't seem to have the same ball issues.

Overall, the root cause of the problems are still the same. This team can't score points, and you can analyze and rationalize why all day long ... and you can blame the defense and the tackling which certainly could have been better. But in the end, that elephant in the room demands to be noticed:

Campbell isn't a play maker, and Zorn isn't a play caller. We have the blind leading the blind offensively.

1) If Campbell is so much more effective from the gun ... run the gun ... and don't wait till there's only 5 minutes left in the game to muster some urgency.

2) Don't run Betts straight ahead inside the 5, and Portis wide on 4th and 1. It hasn't worked so far, so DO SOMETHING ELSE.

3) Stop being Zany and cute, Zorn ... your decisions are not awesome.

4) In the red zone .... throw the ball. And if you're going to make it a four down process, THROW THE BALL 4 TIMES ... maybe then, we can score a TD while there is more than 3 minutes left on the clock. Maybe we can even play with a lead??

5) No matter how many yards Campbell throws for .. if he can't put points on the board ... MAKE A CHANGE ... even if it's for just 1 game. How much worse could Collins do? WE JUST LOST TO THE LIONS. IT DOESN"T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.

RayNAustin wrote:1) If Campbell is so much more effective from the gun ... run the gun ... and don't wait till there's only 5 minutes left in the game to muster some urgency.

Seriously, that's a no brainer.

2) Don't run Betts straight ahead inside the 5, and Portis wide on 4th and 1. It hasn't worked so far, so DO SOMETHING ELSE.

Wow, the Redskins running left? Who'd have seen that??

Zorn, on the goal line...run a dive play. Just once. Or a QB sneak with your gigantic QB.

3) Stop being Zany and cute, Zorn ... your decisions are not awesome.

That's three games in a row that his tricky plays have utterly failed. They're supposed to be used rarely...not all the time.

4) In the red zone .... throw the ball. And if you're going to make it a four down process, THROW THE BALL 4 TIMES ... maybe then, we can score a TD while there is more than 3 minutes left on the clock. Maybe we can even play with a lead??

No kidding. Our offensive line and Clinton Portis clearly can't power in the ball for TDs, so just pass. The Steelers do it. That seems to work for them...

5) No matter how many yards Campbell throws for .. if he can't put points on the board ... MAKE A CHANGE ... even if it's for just 1 game. How much worse could Collins do? WE JUST LOST TO THE LIONS. IT DOESN"T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.

Yeah, I'm actually on board with this now; I wanted to give him this last season, but I'm done. Campbell threw for 340 of the quietest yards I've ever seen, missed several open receivers (Sonny and Sam went ballistic on a few of them), and against a competant team, would have had 2 more interceptions (including one for a surefire TD return). It's time.

RayNAustin wrote:
5) No matter how many yards Campbell throws for .. if he can't put points on the board ... MAKE A CHANGE ... even if it's for just 1 game. How much worse could Collins do? WE JUST LOST TO THE LIONS. IT DOESN"T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.

Agreed with most of what you said, but this stood out! I agree with making the move to Collins, but wait until we lose to the winless Bucs next week and the Chiefs in a few!

Then tell me it can't get any worse then losing to the Lions. The Lions played a better game. They have more talent on Offense then the Skins and there D played better than ours. We simply lost to a better team!

Jason is a tall, lanky QB that does have an arm. What his problem is, is that he is trying to be perfect and he has a HC that is not able to see what works best for him to be successful. Brady and Manning's best work are from the shotgun and it's not in desperation. That's how they run their offense.

This is a copy cat league. Why try to make a 6-5 QB into a 5-9 WCO QB. If New England and Indy can run the gun successfully with their QB's, why can't we even try.

I would like to see Jason in a system that is suited to his strengths and he is not over coached. Run the shotgun when you pass; allow this kid to run if he needs to; and do it until teams can stop it. If they can't, run with it. If it's not the shotgun then have him hand off or do play action with a roll out. Stop this WCO with this guy and come up with something different.

Welcome to the light, Pulp.

Campbell has hung on for too long with unproductive yardage totals and completion %. He's like a relative that's overstayed his welcome, and has caused enough disruption, without contributing enough positives.

And this offense has far more talent than many give them credit for. Moss is STILL a game breaker, and with a first rate passer, he'd be the matchup every week that defenses would have to address. That would not only stop the "8 in the box" tactic everyone has discovered is the key to stopping the Redskins, but would also open up opportunities for Kelly and Mitchell (two potential stars in the wings).

Did you watch Manningham with the Giants? Think he'd be having the same success with the Redskins? I think Mitchell will wind up being at least a #2, and an outstanding receiver ... even better than Kelly IF we can get a QB who sees the entire field and can spread the ball around. We have the weapons. This roster is loaded with un-utilized talent at receiver.

Zorn's short passing game, and JC's inability to hit deep is KILLING the run game. Defenses just play 8 and 9 in the box, and if it's a run .. boom ... no chance. If it's the extremely over used short pass ... they're still in good position to defend it. The only way you move those guys out of the box and give your running game a chance is to punish that defense deep, every time they move up on you.

But what makes me crazy (the non-expert that I am) is running wide on the goal line. YOU CAN'T run east-west on short yardage .. and particularly on the goal line. This is a fundamental no no .. absolutely inexcusable for a professional football coach to repeatedly call.

Portis even said "why run wide". He knows. He understands. Defenses are going to sell out to get penetration, and usually do get it .... they're only protecting 2 yards. Why does Zorn not understand this?

I have mixed feelings on what should be done. It's a rare situation that would call for firing a coach early in the season. 9,999 times out of 10,000 I'd say it would be an idiotic, knee jerk reaction, and counter productive.

And there are some things I really like about Zorn. Some of his zany ideas and unconventional wisdom could be a good thing ... but there's just too much of it, combined with some very fundamental flaws in his approach and judgement in general to consider him a viable head coach.

So, with all of the downside considered, I don't think handing him his walking papers now would be as knee jerk as it might appear, and I'd be tempted to do it.

frankcal20 wrote:I'm not going to kill him b/c he threw a pick. I was happy he tried to force one.

i would feel the same way, if not for randel el WIDE OPEN for the first down and more right to the left where he threw the pass

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:

frankcal20 wrote:I'm not going to kill him b/c he threw a pick. I was happy he tried to force one.

i would feel the same way, if not for randel el WIDE OPEN for the first down and more right to the left where he threw the pass

and I wished he had try to force one on the last play of the game.

PulpExposure wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:5) No matter how many yards Campbell throws for .. if he can't put points on the board ... MAKE A CHANGE ... even if it's for just 1 game. How much worse could Collins do? WE JUST LOST TO THE LIONS. IT DOESN"T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.

Yeah, I'm actually on board with this now; I wanted to give him this last season, but I'm done. Campbell threw for 340 of the quietest yards I've ever seen, missed several open receivers (Sonny and Sam went ballistic on a few of them), and against a competent team, would have had 2 more interceptions (including one for a surefire TD return). It's time.

Yeah, I'm officially flip-flopping on that too ... he throws maybe the worst fade route I've ever seen, the receiver never has a shot at coming down with in in-bounds ... and the deep balls ... awful, pathetic. To be clear, I never thought the guy was going to be an elite starter but I was pretty sure he could be a serviceable starter. Now I'm not even convinced of that.

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:5) No matter how many yards Campbell throws for .. if he can't put points on the board ... MAKE A CHANGE ... even if it's for just 1 game. How much worse could Collins do? WE JUST LOST TO THE LIONS. IT DOESN"T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.

Yeah, I'm actually on board with this now; I wanted to give him this last season, but I'm done. Campbell threw for 340 of the quietest yards I've ever seen, missed several open receivers (Sonny and Sam went ballistic on a few of them), and against a competent team, would have had 2 more interceptions (including one for a surefire TD return). It's time.

Yeah, I'm officially flip-flopping on that too ... he throws maybe the worst fade route I've ever seen, the receiver never has a shot at coming down with in in-bounds ... and the deep balls ... awful, pathetic. To be clear, I never thought the guy was going to be an elite starter but I was pretty sure he could be a serviceable starter. Now I'm not even convinced of that.

When I saw that pass...I could read Zorns mind...OK all of you who wanted me to do that last week...now you know!!

skinsfan#33 wrote:Agreed with most of what you said, but this stood out! I agree with making the move to Collins, but wait until we lose to the winless Bucs next week and the Chiefs in a few!

Then tell me it can't get any worse then losing to the Lions. The Lions played a better game. They have more talent on Offense then the Skins and there D played better than ours. We simply lost to a better team!

I don't buy that at all. They have a more talented QB that is just very green right now, and Calvin Johnson ... who wasn't particularly devastating yesterday. The Stafford kid played pretty darned good for a rookie, and he made some critical throws at critical times ... and he never got flustered or confused. He also made some poor throws too, as you would expect.

But the Redskins defense was flat in the first half, no doubt about that, and the offense picked up right where they left off last week, with a coach doing the same things that have already been proven to fail. This is a coaching issue, and an emotional-mental breakdown on both sides of the ball ...

This is a team that wants to be a team ... they don't want to point fingers, and frankly, I'm surprised that the defense has managed to play at the level they have for as long as they have without help from this woeful offense.

Couple that with playing the Lions, and a rookie QB, and an offense that starts out being stuffed on the goal line ... and I'm not surprised that the defense had a lapse, which they most certainly did.

But, put an offense out there that scores some points, and stop telling these guys they have to win baseball score type games every week, and I think you'll see the defense we were all expecting to see.

Here's a little trivia ... since Zorn has been the coach, the Redskins are 6-1 when the offense produces 20 points or more.

They have failed to score 20 points 12 times (out of 19) and they have won 2 games where the offense failed to score more than 10 points, and 1 game were they scored only 14.

Suffice it to say that this team would have one of the best records in the NFL with just "reasonable" production on offense.

This whole Campbell thing is a disgusting copout, man. The Redskins don't make a committment to establishing the run. That's the root of their problem. It's why Portis stays frustrated and in a disconnected state. People talk about JC as if he's the very worst starting QB in the history of starting QBs. Mostly hot air, in my humble. If I'm a Skins fan, the lack of a consistent running game drives me up the wall by now. Even with subpar quarterbacking, if you establish the run and play defense, you survive, and even thrive.

The blame is so disproportionately placed that it's ridiculous. But if you dig deep enough, I think the lack of a committed run game can be found rotting the root of the "tree".

BeeGee wrote:This whole Campbell thing is a disgusting copout, man. The Redskins don't make a committment to establishing the run. That's the root of their problem. It's why Portis stays frustrated and in a disconnected state. People talk about JC as if he's the very worst starting QB in the history of starting QBs. Mostly hot air, in my humble. If I'm a Skins fan, the lack of a consistent running game drives me up the wall by now. Even with subpar quarterbacking, if you establish the run and play defense, you survive, and even thrive.

The blame is so disproportionately placed that it's ridiculous. But if you dig deep enough, I think the lack of a committed run game can be found rotting the root of the "tree".

I really don't want to be "that Redskins fan" but I must. The whole establishing the run thing is a disgusting copout......... man. How are you supposed to establish the run when your looking at 8 man fronts all day? Then we'll go 4 wide and throw a 5 yard in or same lame WR Screen. I don't want to get into a chicken vs. the egg type of argument but the packages are predictable and outside of a maybe 3 or 4 runs in 3 total games the running game has been non-existent.

Disproportionately placed blame? Campbell is the exact same QB we saw last year. He's just not as effective as he should be. Yesterday, he wasn't as effective as a 1st year rookie QB against a more talented (debatable now, I know) defense. When Campbell starts throwing strikes consistently, when he starts hitting receivers in stride ON TIME, when he gets his 3rd down conversion rate over 40%, when he leads his team on a 4th quarter 2 minute drill comeback W for the first time, I will change my tune. Until then, UNACCEPTABLE!!!

We're 40 games into his career and the majority of his completions are check downs and 100 mph fastballs to a stationary receivers. All of us know what quality quarterbacking looks like and none of us have seen it from Campbell on a consistent basis. He's not the worst in the league, but he's the definition of mediocre.

BeeGee wrote:This whole Campbell thing is a disgusting copout, man. The Redskins don't make a committment to establishing the run. That's the root of their problem. It's why Portis stays frustrated and in a disconnected state. People talk about JC as if he's the very worst starting QB in the history of starting QBs. Mostly hot air, in my humble. If I'm a Skins fan, the lack of a consistent running game drives me up the wall by now. Even with subpar quarterbacking, if you establish the run and play defense, you survive, and even thrive.

The blame is so disproportionately placed that it's ridiculous. But if you dig deep enough, I think the lack of a committed run game can be found rotting the root of the "tree".

For the first 8 games of last year, the entire offense prospered from the energy of the running game. The 6-2 record at the break was courtesy of that very productive running game. At that time, teams committed to stopping the run first... they sold out to it. And, as soon as the run was taken away, the offense disappeared. THAT is why they continue to sell out to stopping the run... and they will continue to do it until Jason Campbell and Zorn learn how to make them pay for that.
Jason can toss for 340 yards/game all year long. Until it converts to points on the board, why should opponents take that 8th man out of the box?

As much as I can't stand Rodney Harrison he is correct