Page 2 of 6
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:34 pm
by SkinsFreak
markshark84 wrote:Zorn's playcalling in the red zone is what killed this offense.
Completely agree.
markshark84 wrote: We didn't have a play bigger than 25 yards. The dinking and dunking needs to go. Not sure if this is a result of the play calling or JC, but it needs to end.
I thought you had all this experience and were some sort of expert? This post clearly shows a complete lack of knowledge about the offensive system. First of all, it's not dinking and dunking... that's what MB04 did years ago with passes behind the line of scrimmage and others that didn't go beyond 4 yards. The WCO encompasses an
intermediate passing game that relies on receivers making yards after the catch, much like ARE did last week with his 7 catches for 98 yards. How many passes did JC throw short of 5 yards? Few... if any. They did in fact take some shots downfield, it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:36 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
SkinsFreak wrote:it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.
cORRect.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:42 pm
by SkinsFreak
Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.
cORRect.
Yeah, it's quite baffling. JC absolutely blows on long passes but does very well at the intermediate passes. Here's a head-scratcher... JC always overthrows Moss, a short 5'9 WR. If that's the case and JC overthrows the short guy, why the hell doesn't Zorn call a few deep passes to the taller receivers we have, the very ones that Zorn said HE NEEDED in this offense?!?!? I can't even remember one long pass play called to Devin Thomas. With his speed and height, you'd think he'd at least get one chance to make that kind of play.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:48 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
SkinsFreak wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.
cORRect.
Yeah, it's quite baffling. JC absolutely blows on long passes but does very well at the intermediate passes. Here's a head-scratcher... JC always overthrows Moss, a short 5'9 WR. If that's the case and JC overthrows the short guy, why the hell doesn't Zorn call a few deep passes to the taller receivers we have, the very ones that Zorn said HE NEEDED in this offense?!?!? I can't even remember one long pass play called to Devin Thomas. With his speed and height, you'd think he'd at least get one chance to make that kind of play.
Jason's intermediate passes aren't all that great either to be honest. That strike to ARE was high as hell and stopped ARe from striding for further yardage.
I'ts not baffling, it's been like this for a while now but it's just taking people time to realize it.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:53 pm
by Fios
Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:it's just that JC struggles with accuracy on the long passes.
cORRect.
Yeah, it's quite baffling. JC absolutely blows on long passes but does very well at the intermediate passes. Here's a head-scratcher... JC always overthrows Moss, a short 5'9 WR. If that's the case and JC overthrows the short guy, why the hell doesn't Zorn call a few deep passes to the taller receivers we have, the very ones that Zorn said HE NEEDED in this offense?!?!? I can't even remember one long pass play called to Devin Thomas. With his speed and height, you'd think he'd at least get one chance to make that kind of play.
Jason's intermediate passes aren't all that great either to be honest. That strike to ARE was high as hell and stopped ARe from striding for further yardage.
I'ts not baffling, it's been like this for a while now but it's just taking people time to realize it.
That's one example, every QB does that from time to time, he does throw a nice intermediate ball ... but the deep passes ... yikes.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:53 pm
by SkinsFreak
I disagree there slightly regarding the intermediate passes, Chris. No QB throws a perfect pass every time. But JC hits a lot of those and hits them in stride. If you re-watch the game, I think you'll see that. Save for the pathetic red zone play calling, JC moved the ball up and down the field all day long, and there was an emphasis placed on the intermediate passing game today. But I completely agree with you on the deep passes... no accuracy whatsoever.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:55 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
SkinsFreak wrote:I disagree there slightly regarding the intermediate passes. No QB throws a perfect pass every time. But JC hits a lot of those and hits them in stride. If you re-watch the game, I think you'll see that. Save for the pathetic red zone play calling, JC moved the ball up and down the field all day long, and there was an emphasis placed on the intermediate passing game today. But I completely agree with you on the deep passes... no accuracy whatsoever.
I am prolly being a bit hard on him on the intermediate passes.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:03 pm
by CanesSkins26
Bottom line is that JC isn't a starting caliber qb and Jim Zorn, at this point, is showing that he is not ready to be either an offensive coordinator or a head coach in the NFL.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:05 pm
by tribeofjudah
Chris Luva Luva wrote:A win isn't a win when u can't even score a TD against the Rams. Lol not even one.
No style points but a win regardless. Here's a couple of things:
1. Zorn is balls out risky....but still calling some aweful plays
2. HORTON is everyday, anyday BETTER than dirty30 (kinda sorry I bought the jersey...need to get a Horton jersey better)
3. Haynewsworth made some plays and London is still a beast
4. those sorry arses on Comcast predicted that the Skins would score 35 pts......... what a JOKE
well
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:05 pm
by cleg
Well, having some time to reflect (drink more) I have come to the realization that winning, no matter how ugly, feels better than losing. So, yeah (I guess). What I did learn today though was that 1) Zorn, not JC is the problem and 2) to walk around Philly in my LL30 jersey would be more fun if we had scored TD.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:06 pm
by PulpExposure
Chris Luva Luva wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:I disagree there slightly regarding the intermediate passes. No QB throws a perfect pass every time. But JC hits a lot of those and hits them in stride. If you re-watch the game, I think you'll see that. Save for the pathetic red zone play calling, JC moved the ball up and down the field all day long, and there was an emphasis placed on the intermediate passing game today. But I completely agree with you on the deep passes... no accuracy whatsoever.
I am prolly being a bit hard on him on the intermediate passes.
You are. He can't throw a deep ball, but he's most accurate on those intermediate passes. Yes, the ball to ARE was a bit high, but that's one example.
Still makes me laugh my butt off that Campbell apparently can't slide. Seriously?
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:11 pm
by Skinsfan55
Why didn't we see this coming? The Redskins tried like hell to get a QB this offseason and I brushed it off as media speculation, the season before last they hired Jim Zorn as the OC with no head coach in place. Due to fan pressure they promoted Zorn to HC and waved bye bye to Jim Fassel (a fine coach)...
Obviously, the two most important factors for a football team, HC and QB were in serious disarray this season and I remained optimistic. I feel like a dope.
The Redskins are awful right now, and their youngest, best player is probably Orakpo without a whole lot of competition. The line is old, and most of the core (Cooley, Portis, Moss, and others) are seeing their primes flash before their eyes with no hope of a competitive season in the near future. This team needs a new QB, a younger RB, smarter, quicker wideouts, a younger offensive and defensive line, better linebackers, and a tougher secondary. Seriously, can even the biggest Redskins homer see anything to look forward to in the future? The Skins have been mismanaged since 1992... they've been on 5 or 6 different 5 year plans since the last time they won the Superbowl and they have been practically incompetent in free agency and the draft for at least that long.
In 1999/2000 the Redskins had their best chance at winning, Champ Bailey, Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, Stephen Davis, Albert Connell, Stephen Alexander, Mike Sellers, Sam Shade, LaVar Arrington, Derek Smith, Dan Wilkinson... you don't get a young core like that very often. All those guys were good to star level and 27 or under. We were led by a star QB in Brad Johnson who made the probowl and we went to the playoffs in 1999.
In 2000, what did we do?
Dan Snyder came in and meddled. He screwed with a star like Johnson (someone who won a Superbowl later and had at least 3 more high quality years left) and brought in a malcontent like Jeff George. An older QB who was out of the league within two years. Snyder added pieces without the approval of the coach (like George, Larry Centers, etc.) and then fired him when things didn't work out. He fired Schottenheimer one year into his three year plan, Spurrier was a spectacular failure and Joe Gibbs ran for cover 4 years into a 5 year contract because he saw the futility in trying to win with the Redskins. (Incidentally, Gibbs had groomed Gregg Williams as his successor but he was fired almost immediately after Joe Gibbs left.)
I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:18 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Skinsfan55 wrote:Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
I disagree. If he gives them full reign which they WILL REQUIRE as Marty did, things will pick up. This team is talented and it's being squandered the HC and JC.
Get Shannahan with a QB we'll be better.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:20 pm
by amadkins
Skinsfan55 wrote:I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
You and I share the same viewpoint. Lately the only reason I pay attention is to see if the fans will grow the stones necessary to boycott the team to hurt Snyder's bottom line.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:22 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
amadkins wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
You and I share the same viewpoint. Lately the only reason I pay attention is to see if the fans will grow the stones necessary to boycott the team to hurt Snyder's bottom line.
I'm not Snyder fan but this isn't neccesary. Although one can argue that Zorn was the proper selection, Snyder is doing the right thing by exercising some patience. I'm sure that change will occur this offseason if we continue on this course.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:25 pm
by SnyderSucks
CanesSkins26 wrote:Bottom line is that JC isn't a starting caliber qb and Jim Zorn, at this point, is showing that he is not ready to be either an offensive coordinator or a head coach in the NFL.
Campbell wasn't the problem at all. The HC gave Portis as many opportunities to throw into the end zone as he gave Campbell. Campbell hit 65% of his passes. Aside from the last drive where they were kneeling, they had about 12 downs that were essentially goal to go, and the coach ran the ball on almost all of them. You run on goal to go from the five and in, not from the 9. Find some pass plays that Campbell likes and call them 12 times in those downs, you get 3 or 4 TD's.
The special teams coach had to tell Zorn when to call timeout at the end when they were trying to run out the clock.
Those fourth down runs at the end were gutsy, but in the end not the mark of a smart coach. If they kick that field goal, you make the rams score a TD. Going for it and not getting it left them open to one lucky play.....
That roughing the passer call on the fumble at the beginning of the game was very questionable.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:28 pm
by RedskinsFreak
Chris Luva Luva wrote:I disagree. If he gives them full reign which they WILL REQUIRE as Marty did, things will pick up. This team is talented and it's being squandered the HC and JC.
Get Shannahan with a QB we'll be better.
Key words = "give them full reign" which, to me, making sure DS is esentially persona non grata from the inner workings of the football operations.
Work the sponsorship and other corporate connections all he wants. But football would have to be 100% off limits.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:29 pm
by SnyderSucks
Chris Luva Luva wrote:amadkins wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
You and I share the same viewpoint. Lately the only reason I pay attention is to see if the fans will grow the stones necessary to boycott the team to hurt Snyder's bottom line.
If the HC doesn't improve his playcalling substantially, he won't wait for the offseason. Shannahan and others are available now, and he doesn't have to compete against a team like Dallas. Plus, bringing them in before the end of the season lets them evalluate the players on the team...Not saying it's going to happen, but if he decides Zorn has to go, it easily could be during the season.
I'm not Snyder fan but this isn't neccesary. Although one can argue that Zorn was the proper selection, Snyder is doing the right thing by exercising some patience. I'm sure that change will occur this offseason if we continue on this course.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:29 pm
by grampi
Skinsfan55 wrote:Why didn't we see this coming? The Redskins tried like hell to get a QB this offseason and I brushed it off as media speculation, the season before last they hired Jim Zorn as the OC with no head coach in place. Due to fan pressure they promoted Zorn to HC and waved bye bye to Jim Fassel (a fine coach)...
Obviously, the two most important factors for a football team, HC and QB were in serious disarray this season and I remained optimistic. I feel like a dope.
The Redskins are awful right now, and their youngest, best player is probably Orakpo without a whole lot of competition. The line is old, and most of the core (Cooley, Portis, Moss, and others) are seeing their primes flash before their eyes with no hope of a competitive season in the near future. This team needs a new QB, a younger RB, smarter, quicker wideouts, a younger offensive and defensive line, better linebackers, and a tougher secondary. Seriously, can even the biggest Redskins homer see anything to look forward to in the future? The Skins have been mismanaged since 1992... they've been on 5 or 6 different 5 year plans since the last time they won the Superbowl and they have been practically incompetent in free agency and the draft for at least that long.
In 1999/2000 the Redskins had their best chance at winning, Champ Bailey, Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, Stephen Davis, Albert Connell, Stephen Alexander, Mike Sellers, Sam Shade, LaVar Arrington, Derek Smith, Dan Wilkinson... you don't get a young core like that very often. All those guys were good to star level and 27 or under. We were led by a star QB in Brad Johnson who made the probowl and we went to the playoffs in 1999.
In 2000, what did we do?
Dan Snyder came in and meddled. He screwed with a star like Johnson (someone who won a Superbowl later and had at least 3 more high quality years left) and brought in a malcontent like Jeff George. An older QB who was out of the league within two years. Snyder added pieces without the approval of the coach (like George, Larry Centers, etc.) and then fired him when things didn't work out. He fired Schottenheimer one year into his three year plan, Spurrier was a spectacular failure and Joe Gibbs ran for cover 4 years into a 5 year contract because he saw the futility in trying to win with the Redskins. (Incidentally, Gibbs had groomed Gregg Williams as his successor but he was fired almost immediately after Joe Gibbs left.)
I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
Didn't I recently hear some rumors floating around that John Kent Cooke may try to buy this team back? That could be the best thing that could happen to this team since it left the Cooke family. Danny Boy is the worst owner in the NFL.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:31 pm
by SnyderSucks
grampi wrote:Skinsfan55 wrote:Why didn't we see this coming? The Redskins tried like hell to get a QB this offseason and I brushed it off as media speculation, the season before last they hired Jim Zorn as the OC with no head coach in place. Due to fan pressure they promoted Zorn to HC and waved bye bye to Jim Fassel (a fine coach)...
Obviously, the two most important factors for a football team, HC and QB were in serious disarray this season and I remained optimistic. I feel like a dope.
The Redskins are awful right now, and their youngest, best player is probably Orakpo without a whole lot of competition. The line is old, and most of the core (Cooley, Portis, Moss, and others) are seeing their primes flash before their eyes with no hope of a competitive season in the near future. This team needs a new QB, a younger RB, smarter, quicker wideouts, a younger offensive and defensive line, better linebackers, and a tougher secondary. Seriously, can even the biggest Redskins homer see anything to look forward to in the future? The Skins have been mismanaged since 1992... they've been on 5 or 6 different 5 year plans since the last time they won the Superbowl and they have been practically incompetent in free agency and the draft for at least that long.
In 1999/2000 the Redskins had their best chance at winning, Champ Bailey, Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, Stephen Davis, Albert Connell, Stephen Alexander, Mike Sellers, Sam Shade, LaVar Arrington, Derek Smith, Dan Wilkinson... you don't get a young core like that very often. All those guys were good to star level and 27 or under. We were led by a star QB in Brad Johnson who made the probowl and we went to the playoffs in 1999.
In 2000, what did we do?
Dan Snyder came in and meddled. He screwed with a star like Johnson (someone who won a Superbowl later and had at least 3 more high quality years left) and brought in a malcontent like Jeff George. An older QB who was out of the league within two years. Snyder added pieces without the approval of the coach (like George, Larry Centers, etc.) and then fired him when things didn't work out. He fired Schottenheimer one year into his three year plan, Spurrier was a spectacular failure and Joe Gibbs ran for cover 4 years into a 5 year contract because he saw the futility in trying to win with the Redskins. (Incidentally, Gibbs had groomed Gregg Williams as his successor but he was fired almost immediately after Joe Gibbs left.)
I mean, what a horrible mess the franchise is in right now, and I don't see it getting any better. It would just be a miracle for a young coach to take control next season and draft a QB high (I like Colt McCoy) so we can hope for some Flacco or Ryan like success... but that's all we have... hope. There's no evidence the Redskins will do any of that.
Instead the evidence suggests that Snyder will gas up Redskins One and meet with Cowher or Shannahan offering millions and millions for another spectacular failure.
Didn't I recently hear some rumors floating around that John Kent Cooke may try to buy this team back? That could be the best thing that could happen to this team since it left the Cooke family. Danny Boy is the worst owner in the NFL.
John Kent Cooke? How is he an improvement over Snyder? His father was a great owner, but he was terrible.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:33 pm
by PulpExposure
SkinsFan55 wrote:Dan Snyder came in and meddled. He screwed with a star like Johnson (someone who won a Superbowl later and had at least 3 more high quality years left) and brought in a malcontent like Jeff George.
Did we watch the same Brad Johnson in 2000? The one whose arm was totally dead, and threw for 11 TDs and 15 INTs? While George was a laughable addition, it was clear that Johnson wasn't the same QB he was in DC the year before, and his career trended downwards (aside from 2002) after that.
And yes, I know he had a good year for Tampa in 2002, but he also played in the perfect offense for him; a short passing WCO. That's not what the Redskins have ever had.
So, I'm curious; what "3 more high quality years" were you referring to? Because if you look at his career, it looks like 1 quality year (2002), and a variety of mediocre years until he became a backup QB.
2000: 11 TDs, 15 INTs.
2001: 13 TDs, 11 INTs.
2002: Agreed, quality year
2003: 26 TDs, 21 INTs.
2004: Backup after this point, except in 2006 when he had an astounding high quality year (9 TDs and 15 INTs) for Minn.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:41 pm
by tribeofjudah
Furthermore....what the heck was Sellers doing with NOT catching that ball. Hey Sellers, you got a contract extension and you drop sure TD in return....tsk tsk tsk....for shame...
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:45 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
The lions scored over 10 points today. Lmao Zorn better bring his A game.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:46 pm
by brad7686
Skinsfan55 wrote: This team needs a new QB, a younger RB, smarter, quicker wideouts, a younger offensive and defensive line, better linebackers, and a tougher secondary.
Would you like fries with that?
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:55 pm
by Skinsfan55
I said in the offseason that if Mark Sanchez turned out to be a franchise QB then it wouldn't even matter what a team gave up to get him, the value of a franchise QB is so great that you would trade your whole draft and best player for one...
The Jets traded 3 spare parts and a second round pick for Mark Sanchez... it's early yet but he's 2-0 and just took down the mighty Patriots.
Personally, the Redskins are such a mess I wouldn't be upset at all if the Redskins traded
ey (a great player, but you don't build a team around a TE), Moss, Portis, Landry, McIntosh, or anyone who might bring back draft picks.