Third preseason game coming, final rehersal

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Post by CanesSkins26 »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Regardless of if you are comfortable or not, he is going to be our starter and remain so barring injury through at least 10 games.

I don't think his leash is that long. It all dependes on how we start and where we are in the playoff hunt.

His "leash" isn't determined in a vacuum. He needs to be worse then the alternatives, which are pretty non-existant. A career backup in the wrong system. Long shot 6th or undrafted. The waiver wire. Trade for a quality QB during the season who doesn't know our team or system. With those choices, his leash is as long as we're remotely alive.


Even the players dont think that JC's leash is all that long. Samuels said several times recently that he thinks that JC has 7 or 8 games to get the job done.
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Post by langleyparkjoe »

VetSkinsFan wrote:I say we give JC at least this game in the pre-season before we form the lynch mob. I mean, that is the lollipop clubbish thing to do, anyway...


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Post by langleyparkjoe »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Regardless of if you are comfortable or not, he is going to be our starter and remain so barring injury through at least 10 games.

I don't think his leash is that long. It all dependes on how we start and where we are in the playoff hunt.

His "leash" isn't determined in a vacuum. He needs to be worse then the alternatives, which are pretty non-existant. A career backup in the wrong system. Long shot 6th or undrafted. The waiver wire. Trade for a quality QB during the season who doesn't know our team or system. With those choices, his leash is as long as we're remotely alive.


Even the players dont think that JC's leash is all that long. Samuels said several times recently that he thinks that JC has 7 or 8 games to get the job done.


Which I think was totally boneheaded of Samuels to do. Even if its true or he's just thinking it, he shouldn't have put it out there ya know? To me if I was JC I'd be like what the heck man??? :lol:
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

You don't understand what I'm saying other then only a little. I'm saying that our season isn't going to be made based on our current team by the O and every move after JC is pure desperation.


I disagree completely. This season is very much dependent on our offense. We all know that our defense is going to be very good. However, Dallas, the Giants, and the Eagles also have very good defenses. Our offense is going to determine how we do in the division because it was by far the worst in the NFC East in 2008 and its shaping up to be the worst in the division again this year.
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Post by Deadskins »

Let me be clear, I don't think mediocre play from JC gets him benched. I'm talking about him sucking. I don't think if he is struggling, it will take 10 games for Zorn to pull the switch.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Deadskins wrote:Since the current team's season outcome isn't based on the O, then every move after JC, necessarily, can't be pure desperation. And my solution is going to Collins, or even whichever young gun we keep as #3, to give him real game experience for the future.

Sure it can. Unless you're arguing he's going to be way WORSE then last year. My argument is he's not improving enough. I haven't seen anyone actually argue he's going to be worse then last year, you haven't. Otherwise, JC's not going to turn it over much and is going to score some points and get some drives going. Not a given for the alternatives. I'd like a better QB, but with our D's potential we could win that way. Our D may not be the Bears when they went to the superbowl, but I will say JC is better then Grossman.

Speaking of the alternatives, you finally answered my question on that you wouldn't pick any choice by selecting every choice. :roll:

What's your argument for TC being an upgrade to even an unimproved JC? That he played well in a few games in a system he was a BACKUP in his entire career? I'm going to give you I don't see TC turning it over a lot, but he is in the totally wrong offense to be a long term starter in and he wasn't even a starter in the one that fit him. You need more argument then he's not JC.

As for the 6th rounder or undrafted rookie, they could be unmitigated disasters. Other then the message board lovin they're getting, what's your argument they wouldn't give up more points then the D? That Brady did it? I can't even list the endless people drafted 6+ who were busts because no one knows who that endless list of people were because they were BUSTS. Again, not JC isn't an argument.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

CanesSkins26 wrote:Samuels said several times recently that he thinks that JC has 7 or 8 games to get the job done.

Fair enough. I said 10, not that different. The NFC is still not very strong and I think we'll be in it for at least 10 games, but I'd agree if we're not it wouldn't go that long. Still, the difference is small. I am disagreeing with those who actually think he's going to be pulled in the first few games or even the pre-season. Not gonna happen.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

CanesSkins26 wrote:
You don't understand what I'm saying other then only a little. I'm saying that our season isn't going to be made based on our current team by the O and every move after JC is pure desperation.


I disagree completely. This season is very much dependent on our offense. We all know that our defense is going to be very good. However, Dallas, the Giants, and the Eagles also have very good defenses. Our offense is going to determine how we do in the division because it was by far the worst in the NFC East in 2008 and its shaping up to be the worst in the division again this year.

You said you disagreed and then didn't address the crux of my point. I'll highlight it for you.
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Post by TincoSkin »

i think you are all missing the real context of JCs employment.

Our D is made to keep our O in the game, it is a force (hopefully). JCs career as a redskin will be intact as long as he doesnt lose us games. last year he went on that streak where he didnt throw ints. that is what zorn wants. as long as our D is doing its job and JC doesnt throw picks or fumble or turn around and sit in our own endzone he will play the whole season.

i expect most of our games to be 3-6 point affairs 14-12 17-10 you get the idea. JCs job is not to screw up and if he does that he will play the whole season.

what happens after that is anyones guess
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Post by Deadskins »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Since the current team's season outcome isn't based on the O, then every move after JC, necessarily, can't be pure desperation. And my solution is going to Collins, or even whichever young gun we keep as #3, to give him real game experience for the future.

Sure it can. Unless you're arguing he's going to be way WORSE then last year. My argument is he's not improving enough. I haven't seen anyone actually argue he's going to be worse then last year, you haven't. Otherwise, JC's not going to turn it over much and is going to score some points and get some drives going. Not a given for the alternatives. I'd like a better QB, but with our D's potential we could win that way. Our D may not be the Bears when they went to the superbowl, but I will say JC is better then Grossman.

Speaking of the alternatives, you finally answered my question on that you wouldn't pick any choice by selecting every choice. :roll:

What's your argument for TC being an upgrade to even an unimproved JC? That he played well in a few games in a system he was a BACKUP in his entire career? I'm going to give you I don't see TC turning it over a lot, but he is in the totally wrong offense to be a long term starter in and he wasn't even a starter in the one that fit him. You need more argument then he's not JC.

As for the 6th rounder or undrafted rookie, they could be unmitigated disasters. Other then the message board lovin they're getting, what's your argument they wouldn't give up more points then the D? That Brady did it? I can't even list the endless people drafted 6+ who were busts because no one knows who that endless list of people were because they were BUSTS. Again, not JC isn't an argument.

You obviously didn't read my latest post at the bottom of the last page. You asked for an alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you; one of our TWO backups, Collins or whichever #3 makes the final roster (yes, TWO is EVERY alternative :roll: ). I'm not advocating starting the season with one of these guys, like you seem to be implying, but if we start the season 0-4 because JC is sucking, then I wouldn't be surprised to see Zorn make a switch. The whole "desperation move" bit was me explaining the logical fallacy to your argument. Since you said the offense is not why this team will win or lose, then making a switch at QB can't be considered a desperation move.
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Post by CanesSkins26 »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
You don't understand what I'm saying other then only a little. I'm saying that our season isn't going to be made based on our current team by the O and every move after JC is pure desperation.


I disagree completely. This season is very much dependent on our offense. We all know that our defense is going to be very good. However, Dallas, the Giants, and the Eagles also have very good defenses. Our offense is going to determine how we do in the division because it was by far the worst in the NFC East in 2008 and its shaping up to be the worst in the division again this year.

You said you disagreed and then didn't address the crux of my point. I'll highlight it for you.


I disagree that TC is pure desperation. TC has looked better than JC has this preseason and it would be very hard for him to do worse than JC did over the last 8 games of 2008. TC might not be great and his arm strength is certainly suspect, but he makes quick decisions and gets the ball out fast. TC isn't the longterm answer but if after 3 or 4 games JC is playing the way that he did in the second half of 2008 then TC should be given a chance.

In another post you mentioned that nobody is arguing that JC is going to be worse this year than last. I actually think that he could be. I think that the JC from the second half of 2008 is what we are going to see this upcoming season, not the JC from the first half of 2008. Bottom line is that JC is a mediocre NFL qb and next offseason needs to be dedicated to finding his replacement.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

CanesSkins26 wrote:I disagree that TC is pure desperation. TC has looked better than JC has this preseason and it would be very hard for him to do worse than JC did over the last 8 games of 2008

He looks better against backups then JC against starters. JC was OK in the first and the second half of the season last year, the O broke down, particularly the line and he didn't get any better.

Again, TC has been a backup his entire career and only played a few games in a system he'd been in for a decade and did OK. Other then he looked better then JC against backups in this one in the pre-season, you offer nothing new. It's desperation. JC will be OK as long as our O holds together and we don't lose our line. He probably won't be great if they do and he may fall again if they don't, but career backup TC in a bad fit system isn't going to do well if that happens either.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Deadskins wrote:You obviously didn't read my latest post at the bottom of the last page. You asked for an alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you; one of our TWO backups, Collins or whichever #3 makes the final roster (yes, TWO is EVERY alternative :roll: )

So you eliminated whichever third stringer gets cut and that's why you didn't pick "EVERY alternative?" Ha! You are a hoot, my friend. Keep it up and thanks for the laugh!

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Post by Deadskins »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:You obviously didn't read my latest post at the bottom of the last page. You asked for an alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you; one of our TWO backups, Collins or whichever #3 makes the final roster (yes, TWO is EVERY alternative :roll: )

So you eliminated whichever third stringer gets cut and that's why you didn't pick "EVERY alternative?" Ha! You are a hoot, my friend. Keep it up and thanks for the laugh!

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No, if you had reading comprehension, you would see that I was saying that "EVERY" in this case means all of "TWO." :roll:
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Deadskins wrote:No, if you had reading comprehension, you would see that I was saying that "EVERY" in this case means all of "TWO." :roll:

I will leave evaluation of reading comprehension to you since you're the continual evaluator in the field. But I will point out there are three choices and I'm actually showing you are selecting all three since you're eliminating one by formula only. That means you have selected every choice, TC, Colt, Chase. If that's comprehension or not again I bow to the expert in the field.

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Post by Deadskins »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:But I will point out there are three choices and I'm actually showing you are selecting all three since you're eliminating one by formula only. That means you have selected every choice, TC, Colt, Chase.

OK, so what? You asked what is the alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you. That I gave "every" alternative is a bad thing, somehow? You are trying to say that I'm advocating going with someone other than JC, which I never did. Again, if JC comes out and goes 0-4 to start the season, I can see Zorn making a switch to one of his alternatives, which at that time will be one of two players on the roster. This would be after only four games, not 10, and not an act of desperation. At least it's not desperation in the sense that our backups to JC are as horrible as you contend. The desperation would be to somehow salvage the season after such a poor start. And like I said, if JC plays mediocre or better, this point is moot, because he will retain the starting role the entire season, barring injury.

BTW, weren't you the one who said JC had to put up now, or he was done?
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:But I will point out there are three choices and I'm actually showing you are selecting all three since you're eliminating one by formula only. That means you have selected every choice, TC, Colt, Chase.

OK, so what? You asked what is the alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you. That I gave "every" alternative is a bad thing, somehow?

Bad no, funny yes. I have TWO choices. Todd, Colt and Chase. You're just fun. Sorry to anyone who thinks it's tedious, but I do enjoy our banter, my friend. And I do not mean "my friend" sarcastically if you're taking it that way. Hey, we're Skins fans on a Skins board, we're on the same side. Doesn't mean we can't have some fun along the way.

Deadskins wrote:BTW, weren't you the one who said JC had to put up now, or he was done?

Yes, but again I didn't say I want him "gone" I said I want to find a new starter (assuming he doesn't put up). I am also saying unless the rules change ala Freak, he won't stay for what we'd offer him. I am also saying this year he is clearly our best choice. If we are eliminated then sure, I'm OK with playing someone else, but I won't support that other then injury until we are or unless JC is way worse then last year.
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Post by Deadskins »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:But I will point out there are three choices and I'm actually showing you are selecting all three since you're eliminating one by formula only. That means you have selected every choice, TC, Colt, Chase.

OK, so what? You asked what is the alternative to having no QB, and I gave it to you. That I gave "every" alternative is a bad thing, somehow?

Bad no, funny yes. I have TWO choices. Todd, Colt and Chase. You're just fun. Sorry to anyone who thinks it's tedious, but I do enjoy our banter, my friend. And I do not mean "my friend" sarcastically if you're taking it that way. Hey, we're Skins fans on a Skins board, we're on the same side. Doesn't mean we can't have some fun along the way.

Deadskins wrote:BTW, weren't you the one who said JC had to put up now, or he was done?


Yes, but again I didn't say I want him "gone" I said I want to find a new starter (assuming he doesn't put up). I am also saying unless the rules change ala Freak, he won't stay for what we'd offer him. I am also saying this year he is clearly our best choice. If we are eliminated then sure, I'm OK with playing someone else, but I won't support that other then injury until we are or unless JC is way worse then last year.

OK, so what part(s) of the rest of my post:

Deadskins wrote:You are trying to say that I'm advocating going with someone other than JC, which I never did. Again, if JC comes out and goes 0-4 to start the season, I can see Zorn making a switch to one of his alternatives, which at that time will be one of two players on the roster. This would be after only four games, not 10, and not an act of desperation. At least it's not desperation in the sense that our backups to JC are as horrible as you contend. The desperation would be to somehow salvage the season after such a poor start. And like I said, if JC plays mediocre or better, this point is moot, because he will retain the starting role the entire season, barring injury.

do you agree/disagree with?
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Post by RayNAustin »

Here here Cane. Well said. And for the record, this is coming from a once staunch Campbell guy who isn't afraid to change his opinion. (others take note).

Here's the deal: everyone thinks that this year is the make or break year for Campbell. I think you'all are wrong. Last year was the year, and the offseason attempts to replace him tells the story. Those efforts just didn't pan out, and that's the only reason he's still here.

Last year, Zorn was brought in to coach Campbell up, and I doubt he had the political capital to bench him. This year is another story, and I think 2 or 3 poor performances from Campbell early on will be enough to put splinters in his rear end, if Zorn sees fit to make a change.

I don't think Snyder spent 100 Million on Haynesworth, gave big dollars to Hall, shored up the o-line just to go down without a whimper and let the season ride on a player he tried to replace. I think the length of the leash is being left to Zorn's judgement, and that the success of the offense overall will determine Zorn's ultimate future with the Redskins.

And if Zorn stays with Campbell too long, and they finish 8-8 or worse, BOTH Zorn and Campbell will be gone.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

Deadskins wrote:OK, so what part(s) of the rest of my post:

Deadskins wrote:You are trying to say that I'm advocating going with someone other than JC, which I never did. Again, if JC comes out and goes 0-4 to start the season, I can see Zorn making a switch to one of his alternatives, which at that time will be one of two players on the roster. This would be after only four games, not 10, and not an act of desperation. At least it's not desperation in the sense that our backups to JC are as horrible as you contend. The desperation would be to somehow salvage the season after such a poor start. And like I said, if JC plays mediocre or better, this point is moot, because he will retain the starting role the entire season, barring injury.

do you agree/disagree with?

I think I've actually addressed it pretty thoroughly, but OK. My basic argument is covered by your statement, "if JC plays mediocre or better, this point is moot, because he will retain the starting role the entire season, barring injury." I think he will play mediocre, maybe a little better. He was mediocre last year and played well at times and I see no reason he would regress.

If we start 0-4 and he is playing "mediocre, maybe a little better" I think he continues to start. If he's the reason we're 0-4, then we're screwed. Again I said I think he will be "mediocre, maybe a little better" and we will at least be in contention through week 10, which was why I said he'd start at least that long.

Todd is at best a stop gap and no one else is a serious candidate until we've completely written off the season. So if we're 0-4 and JC is major sucking, then sure, we try TC, but it is a major desperation move.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

RayNAustin wrote:this is coming from a once staunch Campbell guy who isn't afraid to change his opinion. (others take note)

Have you read the results of the poll? Just asking. Misrepresenting the views you are facing is why your argument on this is DOA. And if you recall the discussion last year as one of his "staunch" supporters, we actually weren't staunch other then we thought giving him a chance was still worth it.

We argued he'd shown enough and with all the coordinator and system changes and his inexperience he still could make it and our dearth of choices last year left giving him that shot as our best option. The only difference is now a lot of us don't think he's our answer and just think we don't have a viable alternative at this point and with the rest of the talent on the team don't want to write off the season with a clunker or a choice of tyros.

So when you call people "staunch" supporters who aren't and weren't, your argument goes no where because it's not an argument against an actual position anyone holds.
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Post by RayNAustin »

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:this is coming from a once staunch Campbell guy who isn't afraid to change his opinion. (others take note)

Have you read the results of the poll? Just asking. Misrepresenting the views you are facing is why your argument on this is DOA. And if you recall the discussion last year as one of his "staunch" supporters, we actually weren't staunch other then we thought giving him a chance was still worth it.

We argued he'd shown enough and with all the coordinator and system changes and his inexperience he still could make it and our dearth of choices last year left giving him that shot as our best option. The only difference is now a lot of us don't think he's our answer and just think we don't have a viable alternative at this point and with the rest of the talent on the team don't want to write off the season with a clunker or a choice of tyros.

So when you call people "staunch" supporters who aren't and weren't, your argument goes no where because it's not an argument against an actual position anyone holds.


Don't tell me ... I argued back and forth with cane extensively ... profusely about Campbell, and he most certainly was a STAUNCH Campbell supporter. At what point he changed his mind, I cannot say. You'd have to ask him.

It seems to me you have enough on your plate already, without taking it upon yourself to speak for others.

And cane seems perfectly capable of doing so ... he actually makes sense, and doesn't engage in cherry picking comments and endless circular arguments.
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Post by KazooSkinsFan »

RayNAustin wrote:It seems to me you have enough on your plate already, without taking it upon yourself to speak for others.

And cane seems perfectly capable of doing so ... he actually makes sense, and doesn't engage in cherry picking comments and endless circular arguments.

Or you could have just said "Cane" instead of making a sweeping description of "others take note" since you're specifically arguing against a variety of people who think JC's not our future that JC should sit now.
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