The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Deadskins wrote:So I don't think you can describe my assertion that the drop-off would not be huge from Moss to either as a "joke." But then again, you are prone to hyperbole...

While, Im excited about their potential... There's no comparing them, especially at this point. And especially with no NFL history to debate it with...

I don't think it's always fair for others to have to endlessly provide the research to educate you on a particular subject. If you simply research Dorsey's and Alridge's history, you might gain a better understanding of Deadskins thought process.

I know more than enough about Alridge and Dorsey to know that comparing them to Moss at this point is absurd. Let's see ifeither one of them even makes the team before we start comparing them to our best receiver/punt returner.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I don't think it's always fair for others to have to endlessly provide the research to educate you on a particular subject. If you simply research Dorsey's and Alridge's history, you might gain a better understanding of Deadskins thought process.

I know more than enough about Alridge and Dorsey to know that comparing them to Moss at this point is absurd. Let's see ifeither one of them even makes the team before we start comparing them to our best receiver/punt returner.

Yeah pretty much... I mean nobody is ignoring their history, it's exciting and provides hope that we may find a gem. But to compare them to Moss is just going too far. The only way you could accurately compare them is to compare NFL experience/history and that's not possible.

Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Deadskins wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

If you simply research Dorsey's and Alridge's history, you might gain a better understanding of Deadskins thought process. I happen to agree with Deadskins, and it's supported by the reasons for signing Dorsey and Alridge in the first place... to acquire and add a needed dynamic to the position and better the overall competition to the return game.

Oh right. I completely forgot about their vast and successful history of producing as punt returners in the NFL. To say that two undrafted players with no real NFL experience are not a big step down from Moss in terms of punt return abilities is a joke.

So I don't think you can describe my assertion that the drop-off would not be huge from Moss to either as a "joke." But then again, you are prone to hyperbole...

QFT!

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

First off, I never made any comparison at WR, only at PR, and even then I didn't make a comparison at all. I said the drop off would probably not be huge. I would consider, the drop off from Moss to ARE huge, but that's a pretty low bar to get over. Any PR that actually runs upfield would be a huge improvement over ARE.

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

First off, I never made any comparison at WR, only at PR, and even then I didn't make a comparison at all. I said the drop off would probably not be huge. I would consider, the drop off from Moss to ARE huge, but that's a pretty low bar to get over. Any PR that actually runs upfield would be a huge improvement over ARE.

I disagree even still that the drop-off would not be that big. Maybe it wouldn't , but until youve done it in this league there is little to go by. Whats more relevant is that avoiding risk to Moss by allowing a less-capable return man to catch kicks might or might not be worth the decrease in return yards/TDS. I believe that one of these kids will make the squad in place of Rock, but we are far from rightfully declaring either a BONIFIED PROVEN return man in the NFL.

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

First off, I never made any comparison at WR, only at PR, and even then I didn't make a comparison at all. I said the drop off would probably not be huge. I would consider, the drop off from Moss to ARE huge, but that's a pretty low bar to get over. Any PR that actually runs upfield would be a huge improvement over ARE.

I disagree even still that the drop-off would not be that big. Maybe it wouldn't , but until youve done it in this league there is little to go by. Whats more relevant is that avoiding risk to Moss by allowing a less-capable return man to catch kicks might or might not be worth the decrease in return yards/TDS. I believe that one of these kids will make the squad in place of Rock, but we are far from rightfully declaring either a BONIFIED PROVEN return man in the NFL.

And who did that?

BTW, Rock doesn't need replacing, IMO. Although he doesn't have breakaway speed, he consistently returns the ball past the 30. It's our PR that needs replacing.

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

First off, I never made any comparison at WR, only at PR, and even then I didn't make a comparison at all. I said the drop off would probably not be huge. I would consider, the drop off from Moss to ARE huge, but that's a pretty low bar to get over. Any PR that actually runs upfield would be a huge improvement over ARE.

Jesus, how is that not a comparison? You have one guy who is established that he's elite as a position, and then make the assertion that insertion of another player at his position will not be a huge dropoff, when the replacement players have no experience at the NFL level. You can tapdance all you want with probably, but the insinuation is still there.

It's okay if you make a wrong assertion. No one will hold it against you.

And I don't recall saying the RBs are taking over at WR...

Deadskins wrote: BTW, Rock doesn't need replacing, IMO. Although he doesn't have breakaway speed, he consistently returns the ball past the 30. It's our PR that needs replacing.

Wow, maybe your not so dead after all, Deadskins. I believe I made the same point back on the first page of this thread. Seriously, Rock is not the problem. It would be nice if one of these guys does prove he can do it in the NFL as a PR. Production there could be one of the big difference makers for the Offense this season.

fastwb wrote:

Deadskins wrote: BTW, Rock doesn't need replacing, IMO. Although he doesn't have breakaway speed, he consistently returns the ball past the 30. It's our PR that needs replacing.

Wow, maybe your not so dead after all, Deadskins. I believe I made the same point back on the first page of this thread. Seriously, Rock is not the problem. It would be nice if one of these guys does prove he can do it in the NFL as a PR. Production there could be one of the big difference makers for the Offense this season.

No one has ever said Rock isn't a stable above average producer. The problem is that he isn't explosive, he isn't going to break the big one. He's a solid performer with a nice average, but he won't wow anyone, and the big one is what we should strive for.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote::roll: Nobody is comparing them to Moss. Deadskins simply said... "Even though Moss is a dangerous return man, I don't think it's worth the injury risk when there is probably not that big a drop-off to go with either Alridge or Dorsey"

Moreso it was an assumption on the unproven guys that they're going to be that good. Either way, it's unintelligent babble.

First off, I never made any comparison at WR, only at PR, and even then I didn't make a comparison at all. I said the drop off would probably not be huge. I would consider, the drop off from Moss to ARE huge, but that's a pretty low bar to get over. Any PR that actually runs upfield would be a huge improvement over ARE.

Jesus, how is that not a comparison? You have one guy who is established that he's elite as a position, and then make the assertion that insertion of another player at his position will not be a huge dropoff, when the replacement players have no experience at the NFL level. You can tapdance all you want with probably, but the insinuation is still there.

It's okay if you make a wrong assertion. No one will hold it against you.

And I don't recall saying the RBs are taking over at WR...

The WR comment was directed at Canes, not you Vet, but since you seemed to be taking up his fight, I just posted the response once.

I don't think I did make a wrong assertion. Just because you don't believe it to be true, doesn't make it wrong. Did I literally make a comparison? Yes. Did I say they were equals? Not by a long shot.

... and when someone includes a word like "probably", I'm not sure thats meant as an absolute assertion. That's the way I perceived it, anyway. To me, it read... there "may not" be a huge drop off, we just don't know yet. Dorsey has a very impressive resume from the CFL. We all know it's not the NFL, but the skill-set to return kicks remains the same, and I'm talking about speed and elusiveness. I don't think Deadskins was trying to make a direct comparison with Moss, just saying there "may not" be a huge drop off.

I'm excited about our return teams this year. What a difference this will make. Even if we are consistently average this would be an upgrade to ARE. If we can return them to the fifty once in a while this will help keep CP from getting beat up so early in the year. The only good thing I can say about ARE return game was at least he didn't fumble and that is the thing that worries me a little. Rock is a different story. Hes been good as both a return guy and coverage guy. If he goes which I doubt we might really miss him.

SkinsFreak wrote:... and when someone includes a word like "probably", I'm not sure thats meant as an absolute assertion. That's the way I perceived it, anyway. To me, it read... there "may not" be a huge drop off, we just don't know yet. Dorsey has a very impressive resume from the CFL. We all know it's not the NFL, but the skill-set to return kicks remains the same, and I'm talking about speed and elusiveness. I don't think Deadskins was trying to make a direct comparison with Moss, just saying there "may not" be a huge drop off.

Why must you always knock over everybody's straw man. No fun.

fastwb wrote:

Deadskins wrote: BTW, Rock doesn't need replacing, IMO. Although he doesn't have breakaway speed, he consistently returns the ball past the 30. It's our PR that needs replacing.

Wow, maybe your not so dead after all, Deadskins. I believe I made the same point back on the first page of this thread. Seriously, Rock is not the problem. It would be nice if one of these guys does prove he can do it in the NFL as a PR. Production there could be one of the big difference makers for the Offense this season.

Didn't see a post of yours on page 1, but I did see my own, the second post in the thread, stating that Rock would be our KR if he made the team.

Countertrey wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:... and when someone includes a word like "probably", I'm not sure thats meant as an absolute assertion. That's the way I perceived it, anyway. To me, it read... there "may not" be a huge drop off, we just don't know yet. Dorsey has a very impressive resume from the CFL. We all know it's not the NFL, but the skill-set to return kicks remains the same, and I'm talking about speed and elusiveness. I don't think Deadskins was trying to make a direct comparison with Moss, just saying there "may not" be a huge drop off.

Why must you always knock over everybody's straw man. No fun.

So this would be where I would normally make a "Captain Obvious" comment? or maybe a "You're grasp of the obvious is astounding!" would apply.

If you use Moss as the standard and compare the other two in his place, and say "there's probably not a big drop off," it can be interpreted in 1 of 2 ways.

1- Moss isn't that good back at PR, which would be false
2- Aldridge/Dorsey would be almost as good (not a huge dropoff) as Moss back at PR, which, at the moment, is impossible to tell.

This means that it's either blowing smoke/speculating on something that cannot be proven or disproven, or being right out wrong. Either way, as I said, is unintelligent babble.

Without proof, it's all speculation. Moss is the best option we have at PR at the moment. He's proved that. Everything else is speculation.

Notice there's no probablies or may nots or other gray area statements that can be contorted for an agenda. If yo uhave something you wanna say, don't be afraid, stand up and say exactly what you mean. Don't half ass it so you can go back and change your angle if you're wrong.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:... and when someone includes a word like "probably", I'm not sure thats meant as an absolute assertion. That's the way I perceived it, anyway. To me, it read... there "may not" be a huge drop off, we just don't know yet. Dorsey has a very impressive resume from the CFL. We all know it's not the NFL, but the skill-set to return kicks remains the same, and I'm talking about speed and elusiveness. I don't think Deadskins was trying to make a direct comparison with Moss, just saying there "may not" be a huge drop off.

Why must you always knock over everybody's straw man. No fun.

So this would be where I would normally make a "Captain Obvious" comment? or maybe a "You're grasp of the obvious is astounding!" would apply.

If you use Moss as the standard and compare the other two in his place, and say "there's probably not a big drop off," it can be interpreted in 1 of 2 ways.

1- Moss isn't that good back at PR, which would be false
2- Aldridge/Dorsey would be almost as good (not a huge dropoff) as Moss back at PR, which, at the moment, is impossible to tell.

This means that it's either blowing smoke/speculating on something that cannot be proven or disproven, or being right out wrong. Either way, as I said, is unintelligent babble.

Without proof, it's all speculation. Moss is the best option we have at PR at the moment. He's proved that. Everything else is speculation.

Notice there's no probablies or may nots or other gray area statements that can be contorted for an agenda. If yo uhave something you wanna say, don't be afraid, stand up and say exactly what you mean. Don't half ass it so you can go back and change your angle if you're wrong.

Please!

Talk about Captain Obvious:
Of course it's all speculation. That's what the OP asked us to do; speculate on who the PR/KR would be. I was just giving my . But I'll be sure to scrutinize every post you make from now on for any non-absolutes.

It's probably more a mix of 1 and 2. Moss is not the greatest return man ever, and the other two are better than you're giving them credit for. Besides, I said it wasn't worth the injury risk to have Moss at PR. So while he may be our best return man, I would rather see the team go with one of the other two.


[size=0]As for agendas: I said I was just yanking your chain about Skynyrd. Let it go already![/size]

It's probably more a mix of 1 and 2. Moss is not the greatest return man ever, and the other two are better than you're giving them credit for. Besides, I said it wasn't worth the injury risk to have Moss at PR. So while he may be our best return man, I would rather see the team go with one of the other two.

It was never said Moss was the greatest ever, but he is the best we have currently. As for credit for the other two, until they prove something at the NFL level, there's no credit to be given.

[size=0]As for agendas: I said I was just yanking your chain about Skynyrd. Let it go already![/size]

[/quote]

I didn't even remember you said it...don't let yourself think you're that important.

But I'll be sure to scrutinize every post you make from now on for any non-absolutes.

Please do.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Without proof, it's all speculation. Everything else is speculation.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Of course he was speculating, that's what this thread is about.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Moss is the best option we have at PR at the moment.

Since you feel the need to tear apart someone else's speculation, the same can be done to yours. It can be proven that Moss was our best option last year. At this very "moment in time" (especially after the guys that were brought in and the existence of the open competition among quite a few candidates that is currently going on at these mini camps and OTA's) you have no idea who our best option is right now, unless you've spent the entire offseason out at Redskins Park watching and evaluating the practice sessions and the KR/PR drills specifically. In addition to Moss, Alridge and Dorsey... there's also Hall, Mason and Thomas, among others getting a look right now. It's also been reported that Cartwright has shed a bunch of weight in an effort to slim down and increase his speed.

Sure, Moss may seem to be the leading candidate and has proved it beyond any reasonable doubt. But Zorn has already said he doesn't plan to use Moss as the PR exclusively. Just as Deadskins can't make an absolute assertion that Dorsey or Alridge are going to be just as good as Moss... at this point in time, you can't definitively say they can't or won't. You never know, one of those guys might be tearing it up right now.

And the CFL isn't college football played by student athletes, Vet. They are paid professionals and Dorsey's credentials aren't entirely worthless. No one is saying that the CFL is equal or superior, talent wise, to the NFL. There are many examples of football players who have achieved great careers that played in the CFL at one point in time. Joe Theismann started his career in the CFL, for example, as did Warren Moon and Doug Flutie, just to name a few.

It's ALL speculation at this point in time, we all know that. And since Zorn doesn't plan to use Moss exclusively, I think it would be wise to hope that one of the others brought in can step up and earn a position. I doubt that both Alridge and Dorsey will make the 53-man roster, but if one can earn a spot on special teams as a KR/PR, it would also benefit our offense, in that one of those guys could be used in 3rd down packages and bring an added element in a similar role as Darren Sproles.

SkinsFreak wrote:Since you feel the need to tear apart someone else's speculation, the same can be done to yours. It can be proven that Moss was our best option last year. At this very "moment in time" (especially after the guys that were brought in and the existence of the open competition among quite a few candidates that is currently going on at these mini camps and OTA's) you have no idea who our best option is right now, unless you've spent the entire offseason out at Redskins Park watching and evaluating the practice sessions and the KR/PR drills specifically. In addition to Moss, Alridge and Dorsey... there's also Hall, Mason and Thomas, among others getting a look right now. It's also been reported that Cartwright has shed a bunch of weight in an effort to slim down and increase his speed.

Since there is no proof otherwise since last season, I used the last set of data available, which was last season, which showed that Moss was the best option. No additional data has been presented to prove otherwise. Practice warriors mean nothing...it's what happens from week 1 thru week 17 and beyond.

SkinsFreak wrote:Sure, Moss may seem to be the leading candidate and has proved it beyond any reasonable doubt. But Zorn has already said he doesn't plan to use Moss as the PR exclusively. Just as Deadskins can't make an absolute assertion that Dorsey or Alridge are going to be just as good as Moss... at this point in time, you can't definitively say they can't or won't. You never know, one of those guys might be tearing it up right now.

Please illustrate for the class where I said Zorn said he's going to use Moss. Don't think that's possible.

At this point in time, basaed on the fact that there's no NFL experience, I can make that assertion because, as I previously stated, practice warriors really don't mean anything. It's all about weeks 1-17 and beyond.

SkinsFreak wrote:And the CFL isn't college football played by student athletes, Vet. They are paid professionals and Dorsey's credentials aren't entirely worthless. No one is saying that the CFL is equal or superior, talent wise, to the NFL. There are many examples of football players who have achieved great careers that played in the CFL at one point in time. Joe Theismann started his career in the CFL, for example, as did Warren Moon and Doug Flutie, just to name a few.

I never discredited the CFL. I merely stated that it's not the top of the food chain in professional football. I am aware of the exceptions that have come out of the CFL to make a name for themselves, but again, these are exceptions, not the rule. Didn't our own Mike Sellers do just that same thing? If we tried, we could pull exceptions of undrafted FA or walk-ons that didn't play college ball and played in the NFL as well as other circumstances that make an interesting debate.

All I was merely pointing out was that given a proven NFL veteran vs a rookie or veteran of(insert other non-NFL football league), my money's on the proven vet.

I'm sure Deadskins is a big boy and can handle his own discussions, but I welcome the challange, anyway

When you mention two players and say there won't be much drop off from one to another, how is that not a direct comparison? Even if you dont mind to compare them you are indirectly comparing them.

Deadskins wrote:

fastwb wrote:

Deadskins wrote: BTW, Rock doesn't need replacing, IMO. Although he doesn't have breakaway speed, he consistently returns the ball past the 30. It's our PR that needs replacing.

Wow, maybe your not so dead after all, Deadskins. I believe I made the same point back on the first page of this thread. Seriously, Rock is not the problem. It would be nice if one of these guys does prove he can do it in the NFL as a PR. Production there could be one of the big difference makers for the Offense this season.

Didn't see a post of yours on page 1, but I did see my own, the second post in the thread, stating that Rock would be our KR if he made the team.

Alright, third post on the second page. Geez, I forgot how precise you have to be on this thread!!

VetSkinsFan wrote:Since there is no proof otherwise since last season, I used the last set of data available, which was last season, which showed that Moss was the best option. No additional data has been presented to prove otherwise.

Thank you for making my point... that's right. We all knew Moss did a better job last year. We don't know where we stand right now... THIS YEAR. That's my point. The roster has changed since last year. Some of these guys involved in the current competition weren't on the roster last year.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Please illustrate for the class where I said Zorn said he's going to use Moss. Don't think that's possible.

I never said you did. I just expanded MY argument. The team has said they will only use Moss as a situational punt returner, that's why we're discussing alternatives and why the team has brought in competitors for an open competition. If Moss was the end-all of the discussion for PR, then the team wouldn't have brought in KR/PR standouts and speedsters such as Dorsey and Alridge and they wouldn't be currently holding an open competition at that position.

VetSkinsFan wrote:At this point in time, basaed on the fact that there's no NFL experience, I can make that assertion because, as I previously stated, practice warriors really don't mean anything. It's all about weeks 1-17 and beyond.

This ain't about "practice warriors". That's pretty funny though.

This is about guys brought in for COMPETITION, not practice. This is about players brought in to compete with current roster players to find the best option going forward. I know you simply looked at last year. Deadskins and I were speculating about the competitors we have NOW for next year... which is thread topic related.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I'm sure Deadskins is a big boy and can handle his own discussions, but I welcome the challange, anyway

Oh... I'm quite sure Deadskins can handle his own discussions... to which I was a part of. But if that's the route you want to take... just the same, I guess you felt CanesSkins26 needed your assistance in his challenge regarding an alleged comparison with Moss.