The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:How in hell does no comment with a smile equate to I want a trade if they bring in competition?

Well, it certainly couldn't mean that he doesn't want to even go there, and provide fuel to an already explosive fire he had just put out a few weeks back with the whole Cutler issue. No, that would be too much in line with the character and class he showed during that whole incident.

Which is a baseless assumption. You know what happens when you ass|u|me right? Well, it ain't ME...

why wouldn't he want to stand-up for himself and say that he never made those comments??? instead, he just cowered...

also, a lot of posters here keep saying they would rather have a classy JC then a non-classy QB like Cutler or others... however, no one has yet to answer my question as to when did class alone win you anything in the NFL? I mean, at least in the NHL they have an award for that... get with it, you need more than class to win in this league...

JCaptMorgan12 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:How in hell does no comment with a smile equate to I want a trade if they bring in competition?

Well, it certainly couldn't mean that he doesn't want to even go there, and provide fuel to an already explosive fire he had just put out a few weeks back with the whole Cutler issue. No, that would be too much in line with the character and class he showed during that whole incident.

Which is a baseless assumption. You know what happens when you ass|u|me right? Well, it ain't ME...

why wouldn't he want to stand-up for himself and say that he never made those comments??? instead, he just cowered...

also, a lot of posters here keep saying they would rather have a classy JC then a non-classy QB like Cutler or others... however, no one has yet to answer my question as to when did class alone win you anything in the NFL? I mean, at least in the NHL they have an award for that... get with it, you need more than class to win in this league...

Becuase I'd rather have a classy guy like JC inthe locker room than a cancerous spoiled brat a la TO. That guy has destroyed every locker room he's been in.

By him not trippin over the drama that he has every right to voice an opinion on, he's shown that the drama doesn't phase him. I like that in a QB. What good is it going to do if he spouts off like TO or Cutler or some other cry-baby? I can tell you... no good at all.

No one has ever asserted that class alone wins anything. I speak for myself in saying that class, along with the other attributes that we've seen flashes of CAN bring him to the next level.

The question is what is JC's norm in the future: the mediocrity or the flash?

Everyone will forget about how classy Jason is when he's pump faking a billion times...

Everyone will forget about how much of a jerk Cutler is when he's nominated (maybe) for his third probowl.

And who the heck said Jason is an extreme talent??? LOL If he's extreme about anything it's his passive nature.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Everyone will forget about how classy Jason is when he's pump faking a billion times...

Everyone will forget about how much of a jerk Cutler is when he's nominated (maybe) for his third probowl.

And who the heck said Jason is an extreme talent??? LOL If he's extreme about anything it's his passive nature.

CLL, but your alter ego BACK in the closet


I agree that if he reverts back to his old ways, then that wil be status quo. Let's hope that he's grown from being hte master of the pump fake.

OK so Jason or Jcam or whatever is not an outspoken emotional speaker or leader. We got that. He has been very calm and collected and has responded in a much more measured way than any of us would in a similar situation. As for the trade demands, they were made quietly through his agent with conditions. Not publicly or outwardly confrontationally. Kinda shrewd actually, since a players trade value apparently goes down hen he says he wants out. If true, his actions made it even more difficult for the team to come up with the trade fodder to go for Sanchez.

[/quote]The effort to acquire Cutler was understandable. Cutler has proven himself. He has shown what he can do on a good day. Has probably the strongest arm in the league. [/quote]

I often wonder why Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback and Campbell is considered a serviceable and sometimes questionable quarterback. Statistically there is not much difference. I, for one, am glad that the Redkins did not get Cutler and am grateful to the Jets for saving us from our own short-sightedness concerning Sanchez.

I often wonder why Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback and Campbell is considered a serviceable and sometimes questionable quarterback. Statistically there is not much difference. I, for one, am glad that the Redkins did not get Cutler and am grateful to the Jets for saving us from our own short-sightedness concerning Sanchez.

Not really. Cutler's productivity to this point has been far superior to JC's. Despite only playing in one more career game than JC, Cutler has 19 more touchdowns, almost 2000 more passing yards, a higher qb rating, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per game average, and a higher yards per attempt average.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I often wonder why Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback and Campbell is considered a serviceable and sometimes questionable quarterback. Statistically there is not much difference. I, for one, am glad that the Redkins did not get Cutler and am grateful to the Jets for saving us from our own short-sightedness concerning Sanchez.

Not really. Cutler's productivity to this point has been far superior to JC's. Despite only playing in one more career game than JC, Cutler has 19 more touchdowns, almost 2000 more passing yards, a higher qb rating, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per game average, and a higher yards per attempt average.

Right. And Cutler has also been playing in a pass happy offense. The Broncos have struggled with their running game, and having the 29th ranked defense had them playing from behind in almost every game. Those two incredibly relevant circumstances padded his numbers, that's a fact. Cutler finished the season rated as the 16th best QB in the league, even after they padded his numbers. JC finished the season rated 19th, only 3 spots lower than Cutler. That's not a huge difference, especially when JC played in a run heavy offense.

Folks always want to simply look at JC's TD/INT ratio, many months after the season has ended, and conclude he isn't very good. Okay... fair enough. JC had 13 TD's, 6 Int's and an 84.3 QB rating. Ben Roethlisberger had 17 TD's, 15 int's and an 80.1 QB rating. I'll grant you that Big Ben has an incredible knack for extending plays in the pocket and was supported by the best defense in the league, but his production throwing the ball was inferior to JC's.

JC finished the season ranked higher than Roethlisberger, Favre, Flacco, Kerry Collins, Kyle Orton, Derek Anderson and Marc Bulger, amoung others. Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

What the game tape proves is that JC makes slow reads, has a slow release, and is at best, a mediocre qb. You can make all the blind assertions that you want, but his lack of production and win/loss record speak for themselves.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

What the game tape proves is that JC makes slow reads, has a slow release, and is at best, a mediocre qb. You can make all the blind assertions that you want, but his lack of production and win/loss record speak for themselves.

Right... his so-called "lack of production" was better than the Super Bowl winning QB and better than 13 other QB's in the league. Damn son...

Ben Roethlisberger had 17 TD's, 15 int's and an 80.1 QB rating. I'll grant you that Big Ben has an incredible knack for extending plays in the pocket and was supported by the best defense in the league, but his production throwing the ball was inferior to JC's.

To even compare JC to Big Ben is laughable. How many rings does Big Ben have? How many does JC have? Big Ben, despite a down year statistically, still stepped up late in games when it mattered most for his team. He has done that on a consistent basis, including in the Super Bowl. JC has done that once in his entire career, against the mighty defense of the New Orleans Saints . Since you seem to like qb rating so much, how about we compare Big Ben's career 89.4 rating to JC's 80.4 rating.

Jason Campbell and Jay Cutler's records are almost identical... Cutler has also attempted more passes, been sacked far less and plays with a lot better talent

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Ben Roethlisberger had 17 TD's, 15 int's and an 80.1 QB rating. I'll grant you that Big Ben has an incredible knack for extending plays in the pocket and was supported by the best defense in the league, but his production throwing the ball was inferior to JC's.

To even compare JC to Big Ben is laughable. How many rings does Big Ben have? How many does JC have? Big Ben, despite a down year statistically, still stepped up late in games when it mattered most for his team. He has done that on a consistent basis, including in the Super Bowl. JC has done that once in his entire career, against the mighty defense of the New Orleans Saints . Since you seem to like qb rating so much, how about we compare Big Ben's career 89.4 rating to JC's 80.4 rating.

Oh, well... if you want to EXTEND the parameters of the comparison, fine. I was simply comparing QB's and their PASSING production, evidenced by the numbers and statistics I included. Damn son...

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

What the game tape proves is that JC makes slow reads, has a slow release, and is at best, a mediocre qb. You can make all the blind assertions that you want, but his lack of production and win/loss record speak for themselves.

Right... his so-called "lack of production" was better than the Super Bowl winning QB and better than 13 other QB's in the league. Damn son...

JC averages just under 1 td per game for his career. The production that we have gotten out of him is truly astounding. You seem happy to point out that JC "outproduced" an over-the-hill Favre and others, well why don't we look at who outproduced JC. That list includes, if you go by qb rating, Shaun Hill, Matt Ryan, Seneca Wallace, Trent Edwards, and 39 year old Jeff Garcia. If we go by td's that list includes Tyler Thigpen, Kyle Orton, and two rookies (Ryan and Flacco).

I'm glad he's handling this well...but I also hope he's got a chip on his shoulder and uses that to up his game. He's got a lot to prove this year.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

What the game tape proves is that JC makes slow reads, has a slow release, and is at best, a mediocre qb. You can make all the blind assertions that you want, but his lack of production and win/loss record speak for themselves.

Right... his so-called "lack of production" was better than the Super Bowl winning QB and better than 13 other QB's in the league. Damn son...

JC averages just under 1 td per game for his career. The production that we have gotten out of him is truly astounding. You seem happy to point out that JC "outproduced" an over-the-hill Favre and others, well why don't we look at who outproduced JC. That list includes, if you go by qb rating, Shaun Hill, Matt Ryan, Seneca Wallace, Trent Edwards, and 39 year old Jeff Garcia. If we go by td's that list includes Tyler Thigpen, Kyle Orton, and two rookies (Ryan and Flacco).

Ah yes.... that tricky little think known as comprehension...

I never said he was the best or even in the top ten. You've extended the parameters of my comparison to fit your argument. Have at it...

frankcal20 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:JC absolutely wanted a trade (the "no comment" was obvious enough -- it's like pleading the 5th in court).....and why wouldn't he? He considers himself an NFL starting QB. Now the real question is do other teams? Neither the Jets nor the Broncos wanted him (the Broncos went as far as to take a 17th and Orton over our 13th and Campbell) , but that doesn't mean that other teams would like to pick him up. I personally can only think of a couple, but that's not to say it isn't possible.

In relation to Culter, the fact is that JC wasn't as aggressive towards a trade -- which I personally attribute to his personality more than anything else. His reaction is very much like the way he plays -- not very aggressive or outspoken --- one of his major problems as a QB. To me (and I say to me), it looked as if he was not confident enough to go out to the media, express his worth and say that the front office is crazy for looking into replacing him. I would rather him have been outspoken and stood his ground via the media -- shown some fire. At least then he would have spoke up. All in all, it is just another example that while JC is a stand-up guy and well liked, he isn't assertive.

We'll see how he does this year as QB. This, hopefully, is the year of no excuses. He has been awarded every excuse under the sun for the fact that he hasn't panned out as a solid starter or franchise QB. Some are legit, most aren't but regardless this is his contract year and a make or break one for JC. We'll see if he responds with the fire that we have been so hoping for since 2005.

While I was against trading up for Sanchez, I wouldn't mind seeing a trade for Brady as long as it doesn't include trading away a pick above the 4th round. But the question still remains: would the Browns follow in the footsteps of the Broncos and Jets and take a pass on JC? My answer is probably.

For all you Mod's out there, I am attacking the post, not the poster. Hence, following the rules......


This is the dumbest post I have read in all my years on here (except one kid who couldn't type, spell or use any punctuation properly...we all remember him, not by name, but poor grammar).

Jim Zorn said all year that the philosophy of last year was to "Stay Even." Jason, along with the rest of the team did that. Was there time when he showed a reaction, yes. I saw just on tv today on NFL Network where he threw a td pass and he was jumping in C. Samuels arms, pumping his fists in celebration. There was another play where he was taken down and he chewed out a lineman. Not sure who it was, just assuming it was a backup during one of our many injury plagued games.

Is he Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, any of those guys? No. Not by a long shot. But he is what he is. An even keeled QB who has extreme talent. When given the opportunity to flourish under the same system, we will see what he can do. That is why Joe Gibbs and staff reached up in the 1st round to get him. I think that the Redskins organization has stunted his growth based on the fact that he has been asked to learn so many offenses and his coaching has been changed so many times ( O-Cord. included).

If he goes out there and stinks it up this year, then thats on him. And something tells me he will be the first one to say that he didn't get it done but I don' t think that he will. Most football heads out there have a consensus that he is an adequate QB to run this offense and do some good things. Will he be a top 10 QB, thats left to be said but as of right now, he's still one of the top 32 in the league and thats all that matters.

Wow. Not sure what in my post is incorrect or exaggerated to warrant such a distinction. Nothing I said in terms of other teams and their opinion of JC is incorrect. The Broncos even went as far as to say that JC just wasn't the right fit and were willing to take less for Orton. I guess it is the typical response you would expect from a JC apologist, though. Regardless, you use (or you reference) some great words to describe JC. I like "adequate" the best. Because personally, my dream is to have an "adequate" QB. And even saying that JC is no Manning or Rivers is laughable.

I am not questioning JC's ability. I never did. I never have. On paper, JC has all the tools to succeed, big arm, tall, big hands, good drop back --- but he has yet to fully succeed in his four full years in the NFL. In 2007, his injury was arguably the reason we made the playoffs.

And your one example of JC showing emotion is actually fairly funny. I am not asking JC to jump up in the air, I am asking him to be a leader and show fire throughout the game. Do you really think that JC was the leader head and shoulders above everyone else last year? Do you really think that he consistently showed fire or grit last year? You would be a crazy person to say yes. Also, "Staying even" does not mean to not show emotion, but to play consistently throughout the season. Do you not understand that? Did JC play consistently this season? He feel apart in the second half and after teams realized he had a slow release and slow to make decisions in the pocket, they were putting 8 in the box ---- literally asking JC to throw ---- and punishing our best player, CP, in the process.

But hey, if you want an unemotional QB that is not a leader, you have him. And I again see the typical JC apologist excuse. Good QBs learn offenses. It doesn't take them 4 years to adjust to the speed of the league. JC had 2 years in the Gibbs offense and this will be his second in Zorns. Like you said, we'll see what happens --- and I hope he does well, but to come on here, say my post was idiotic and then make a post with no actual point (outside of your personal opinions), well thats "on you".

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

What the game tape proves is that JC makes slow reads, has a slow release, and is at best, a mediocre qb. You can make all the blind assertions that you want, but his lack of production and win/loss record speak for themselves.

Right... his so-called "lack of production" was better than the Super Bowl winning QB and better than 13 other QB's in the league. Damn son...

JC averages just under 1 td per game for his career. The production that we have gotten out of him is truly astounding. You seem happy to point out that JC "outproduced" an over-the-hill Favre and others, well why don't we look at who outproduced JC. That list includes, if you go by qb rating, Shaun Hill, Matt Ryan, Seneca Wallace, Trent Edwards, and 39 year old Jeff Garcia. If we go by td's that list includes Tyler Thigpen, Kyle Orton, and two rookies (Ryan and Flacco).

Ah yes.... that tricky little think known as comprehension...

I never said he was the best or even in the top ten. You've extended the parameters of my comparison to fit your argument. Have at it...

I'm sick and tired of sorting through bickering and whining for actual content. STOP BITCHING AT EACH OTHER!!!! Youre both wrong and right. Campbell statistically had a pretty decent year, but when you watch film, it's clear he doesn't react as quickly as some of the top-tier QBs in the league. nuff said.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:If I was the Redskins I would still try and trade for Brady Quinn.

So we pick up a far less experienced player in Quinn. Physically inferior passer in Quinn. To just start all over again.

Quinn has proven nothing.

1.) One man's "less experienced" is another man's "younger". I want a younger potential franchise QB and Quinn seems better than anyone coming out of college next season and he's available. Just threw his name out there.

2.) Brady Quinn is physically inferior to NO quarterback. In this league or any other one. Have you actually seen this guy's physique? He is strong as an ox and is built to not only have a lot of arm strength but to shake off all but the surest tacklers who creep into the pocket. He is physically superior to every NFL QB.

3.) Brady Quinn may have proved nothing in the NFL, but neither has Jason Campbell. If anything, Campbell has nearly proved (still a sliver of doubt) that he's just not ever going to be even an above average QB.

At least with a guy like Quinn he appears to have all the tools to be a franchise QB

I should have said in terms of NFL arm. Yes Quinn is physically fit. Very fit in fact. I meant as far as NFL arm goes. Campbell has a fantastic throwing arm. He could launch a bomb with the best in the league. Campbell and Quinn as far as arm goes. Campbell wins in a landslide.

HEROHAMO wrote:Campbell has a fantastic throwing arm.

What good is it when he's not accurate with it? I have yet to see him hit Moss in stride without him having to slow down, catch it on his hip or contort his body to get to it.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Campbell has a fantastic throwing arm.

What good is it when he's not accurate with it? I have yet to see him hit Moss in stride without him having to slow down, catch it on his hip or contort his body to get to it.

Moss is a very small man that runs very fast and can't catch. All of those things are difficult on the QB accuracywise. El is the same way. Its shocking to me that Campbell records a completion percentage so high under the circumstances. Phillip Rivers is out there with gigantic people and they adjust to make impossible to catches to make him look good.

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I often wonder why Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback and Campbell is considered a serviceable and sometimes questionable quarterback. Statistically there is not much difference. I, for one, am glad that the Redkins did not get Cutler and am grateful to the Jets for saving us from our own short-sightedness concerning Sanchez.

Not really. Cutler's productivity to this point has been far superior to JC's. Despite only playing in one more career game than JC, Cutler has 19 more touchdowns, almost 2000 more passing yards, a higher qb rating, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per game average, and a higher yards per attempt average.

Right. And Cutler has also been playing in a pass happy offense. The Broncos have struggled with their running game, and having the 29th ranked defense had them playing from behind in almost every game. Those two incredibly relevant circumstances padded his numbers, that's a fact. Cutler finished the season rated as the 16th best QB in the league, even after they padded his numbers. JC finished the season rated 19th, only 3 spots lower than Cutler. That's not a huge difference, especially when JC played in a run heavy offense.

Folks always want to simply look at JC's TD/INT ratio, many months after the season has ended, and conclude he isn't very good. Okay... fair enough. JC had 13 TD's, 6 Int's and an 84.3 QB rating. Ben Roethlisberger had 17 TD's, 15 int's and an 80.1 QB rating. I'll grant you that Big Ben has an incredible knack for extending plays in the pocket and was supported by the best defense in the league, but his production throwing the ball was inferior to JC's.

JC finished the season ranked higher than Roethlisberger, Favre, Flacco, Kerry Collins, Kyle Orton, Derek Anderson and Marc Bulger, amoung others. Make all the blind assertions you want, but the game tape proves otherwise.

Maybe in terms of yards & TD's, but not completion %, int's or yds/catch. You cab just as reasonable argue that since he was in "must pass" mode so much, he is really better than his stats.

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I often wonder why Cutler is considered a franchise quarterback and Campbell is considered a serviceable and sometimes questionable quarterback. Statistically there is not much difference. I, for one, am glad that the Redkins did not get Cutler and am grateful to the Jets for saving us from our own short-sightedness concerning Sanchez.

Not really. Cutler's productivity to this point has been far superior to JC's. Despite only playing in one more career game than JC, Cutler has 19 more touchdowns, almost 2000 more passing yards, a higher qb rating, a higher completion percentage, a higher yards per game average, and a higher yards per attempt average.

Right. And Cutler has also been playing in a pass happy offense. The Broncos have struggled with their running game, and having the 29th ranked defense had them playing from behind in almost every game. Those two incredibly relevant circumstances padded his numbers, that's a fact.

Folks always want to simply look at JC's TD/INT ratio, many months after the season has ended, and conclude he isn't very good. Okay... fair enough. JC had 13 TD's, 6 Int's and an 84.3 QB rating. Ben Roethlisberger had 17 TD's, 15 int's and an 80.1 QB rating. I'll grant you that Big Ben has an incredible knack for extending plays in the pocket and was supported by the best defense in the league, but his production throwing the ball was inferior to JC's.

My comment to the first paragraph would be that perhaps this is why Cutler's passing rating is even remotely similar to JCs (I personally do not think that JC's numbers are even close to Cutlers -- Cutler's offense actually scored -- we averaged about 10 points a game for the last 11 games; additionally Cutler throw for over 1300 yards more than JC, had a higher yard per attempt avg, the same completion % -- and he didn't play in a WCO). Defenses didn't put 8 in the box like they did for JC. It is much more difficult to complete passes when defenses are constantly playing pass, than against defenses that play single coverage on all your receivers (except for the minority of games were teams doubled Moss). Besides the only thing that makes Cutlers QB rating even remotely close to JCs is because of Cutler's interception total --- most likely a by-product of always playing catchup and constantly facing nickel and dime defensive packages, which would explain why their RBs averaged 4.8 yds per carry -- .4 yds above the redskin average -- and the Broncos don't have a RB 1/100th as good as CP.

As far as your second paragraph, JC's TD/INT ratio is just the tip of the iceberg. 13 TDs for a 16 game starter is horrendous. And as far as making the insanely crazy assertion that JC's production was superior to Ben's, what do you think the street value on JC is compared to Ben? If Ben requested a trade, do you think the Steelers would get a first rounder for him? I think they could potentially get 2 first rounders (maybe to match his 2 SB rings) -- much like Cutler. Now when we put JC on the market, what was his worth --- the Jets wouldn't give up a low 2nd round pick straight up for JC. You can convince yourself all you want about his QB rating -- which was mostly from his 5 yard dump offs (he was 25th in the league in yards per attempt)-- and his low interception total --- which are common in WCOs, but the fact is that Ben Roth is a SB QB. JC is nowhere near a SB QB. I just wonder if the Steeler faithful are concerned that Ben is underacheiving due to his lackluster OL -- besides he did get sacked 46 times last season.

I do agree with you, however, that it was for the best that the trade for Cutler didn't work out (he isn't a good fit for our offense and giving up two number 1s was too steep a price) and we didn't trade up for Sanchez (that it was a short-sided), But, I don't believe that JC has earned the destinction of being considered a good or even solid QB. Additionally, I think that even comparing him to Ben Roth is an enormous stretch in every sense of the word. Right now, JC is the best option we have at QB and I truly hope that I am proven wrong next season. It would be fantastic to see the skins finally have a franchise QB.

You can pretty much bend statistics anyway you want to support a theory.

What sets a quarterback apart from the herd is being able to drive the length of the field to get the win in the final moments (a-la Elway) or to respond to the call when your team has just gone behind in the superbowl and you know this is your final chance (a-la Ben R).

Question is , do you have confidence that JC could do that?

I remember dan MArino's first ever game. I turned to my girfriend and told her that we had just witnessed the career start of someone who would be one of the greatest players ever. I had been watching the NFL for a little over a year in the UK and Marino had played less than a quarter.

it dosnt take long to recognise a great player, the fact that people are still debating JC's abilities suggest that he will never beome the franchise QB we seek. Hope I am wrong, dont think I am

brad7686 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Campbell has a fantastic throwing arm.

What good is it when he's not accurate with it? I have yet to see him hit Moss in stride without him having to slow down, catch it on his hip or contort his body to get to it.

Moss is a very small man that runs very fast and can't catch. All of those things are difficult on the QB accuracywise. El is the same way. Its shocking to me that Campbell records a completion percentage so high under the circumstances. Phillip Rivers is out there with gigantic people and they adjust to make impossible to catches to make him look good.

Yeah, because guys who set receiving records historically can't catch.