The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

brad7686 wrote:I can agree with that. But if the team plans to have any success in the future they have to learn to pass block better, and get better personnel if need be.

And I agree. But rebuilding both lines, which is desperately needed, will take more than 1 year. This year, they addressed the d-line, with Haynesworth and Orakpo. Let's see if next year they address the o-line.

PulpExposure wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I can agree with that. But if the team plans to have any success in the future they have to learn to pass block better, and get better personnel if need be.

And I agree. But rebuilding both lines, which is desperately needed, will take more than 1 year. This year, they addressed the d-line, with Haynesworth and Orakpo. Let's see if next year they address the o-line.

We did get Dockery back this year, who did well with us the 1st time around. Hopefully, we'll be more aggressive with the OLine in FA and draft next year. If Jansen/Heyer step up, then we'll be good for the year.

But, when healthy both Jansen and Thomas have been great blockers. One bad year last year

It's not just last year though. Jansen has been in a significant decline for about three years now.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

But, when healthy both Jansen and Thomas have been great blockers. One bad year last year

It's not just last year though. Jansen has been in a significant decline for about three years now.

Let's see, Achilles recovery, broken dislocation and recovery. I think this year will show us what he's really about. I don't think he was recovered mentally from that broken dislocation. I can only imagine the doubt he had on that ankle last year. He had a year without a set back on it; this will be his come back!

Look I am absolutely no expert (very far from it) but it seems to me that there was the talent and opportunity to upgrade the D Line and the Front Office did that. Though the O Line had real problems in 2008 either the talent was not ideal or the opportunity did not fall at the right time for a significant upgrade. So we did what we could and we prepare for next season with a fearsome D Line that every coach is going to have to scheme for. This makes me feel really good and though I would have liked to bring in a great rookie RT or a stellar Free Agent lineman I guess it would be impossible to do both effectively.

I am happy with Cargrif Haynrakpo...sounds good to me!

The main issue with fans and it's been repeated on here often is that you want it ALL and you want it ALL in one off-season. They've made a decent attempt to at least touch on each and every issue. Next year I'm sure the o-line will get the spotlight.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:The main issue with fans and it's been repeated on here often is that you want it ALL and you want it ALL in one off-season. They've made a decent attempt to at least touch on each and every issue. Next year I'm sure the o-line will get the spotlight.

Welcome back CLL!!! We missed you! That evil anti-CLL sucks...try to keep him in the closet longer this year!!

Chris Luva Luva wrote: Next year I'm sure the o-line will get the spotlight.

That's what I thought heading into this off-season and we didn't see it. Our offensive line has needed and injection of youth for years. This isn't an issue that suddenly crept up this off-season. Jansen has been in decline for a few years now and Heyer hasn't proven to be that much of a player. He's done ok when he's been in there, but usually with the help of a tight end or a running back. Hopefully you guys are right about Jansen bouncing back. If the right side of the line isn't significantly better this year it's going to be another long season on offense.

Last year there was a run on tackles and we were too far back in the draft to get an elite one. Granted the Falcons went for Sam Baker with the pick we traded them but there were serious question marks about him from scouts where they thought he wasn't going to be successful. (Perhaps they were wrong, he seems to have done well.)

In 2007 we had line needs sure, but we were picking 6th and no one on the line was worthy of that pick. Joe Thomas and Levi Brown went ahead of us and another offensive lineman wasn't picked for 23 spots. We took Landry instead and even though he hasn't fully developed like we expected he's still a good prospect and may improve his game (he would be a star if Sean Taylor were still alive God rest his soul.)

In 2007 the Redskins added veteran guard Pete Kendall. I know you're talking about adding youth, but that move worked out pretty well. This season they added Derrick Dockey who is much younger and much better. The team cannot have its cake and eat it too. They could have drafted Oher (after Orakpo fell all the way to 13) but that would have been idiotic. The Redskins have addressed their offensive line as well as could be expected in the circumstances. What would have have had them do? Draft Baker in 08? Draft Oher in 09? Sign Jordan Gross? (Which probably wasn't even realistic since he re-upped with his team.)

Honestly what would you have them do differently? Draft a 5th round OT prospect? What would have fixed everything?

Skinsfan55 wrote:In 2007 the Redskins added veteran guard Pete Kendall. I know you're talking about adding youth, but that move worked out pretty well. This season they added Derrick Dockey who is much younger and much better. The team cannot have its cake and eat it too. They could have drafted Oher (after Orakpo fell all the way to 13) but that would have been idiotic. The Redskins have addressed their offensive line as well as could be expected in the circumstances.

I think that's highly disputable, for example:

What would have have had them do? Draft Baker in 08? Draft Oher in 09? Sign Jordan Gross? (Which probably wasn't even realistic since he re-upped with his team.)

They could have drafted Meredith, a 2nd to 4th round talent, in the 5th round. That's why I'd say they didn't do everything as well as could be expected.

Honestly what would you have them do differently? Draft a 5th round OT prospect? What would have fixed everything?

It's not so much about fixing everything in one fell swoop as it is taking steps to address the problem. The Redskins got a temporary, workable solution for their DL problems when they drafted Montgomery and Golston in the same draft several years ago. Were they The Solution to our weak DL? No, but they were good enough that we could still have a top-5 defense.

Nevertheless, pressure on the pass rush remained a big concern, and ultimately those two late-round picks weren't going to be the solution. I'd say the Redskins have addressed that remaining issue this offseason through FA and the draft.

Drafting Meredith in the 5th round (again, just to use the example) wouldn't have guaranteed a Pro-Bowl player to replace Jansen/Heyer. But it very well could have been an upgrade, and perhaps even a workable one until we can more fully address the problem in 1-2 years.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Last year there was a run on tackles and we were too far back in the draft to get an elite one. Granted the Falcons went for Sam Baker with the pick we traded them but there were serious question marks about him from scouts where they thought he wasn't going to be successful. (Perhaps they were wrong, he seems to have done well.)

In 2007 we had line needs sure, but we were picking 6th and no one on the line was worthy of that pick. Joe Thomas and Levi Brown went ahead of us and another offensive lineman wasn't picked for 23 spots. We took Landry instead and even though he hasn't fully developed like we expected he's still a good prospect and may improve his game (he would be a star if Sean Taylor were still alive God rest his soul.)

In 2007 the Redskins added veteran guard Pete Kendall. I know you're talking about adding youth, but that move worked out pretty well. This season they added Derrick Dockey who is much younger and much better. The team cannot have its cake and eat it too. They could have drafted Oher (after Orakpo fell all the way to 13) but that would have been idiotic. The Redskins have addressed their offensive line as well as could be expected in the circumstances. What would have have had them do? Draft Baker in 08? Draft Oher in 09? Sign Jordan Gross? (Which probably wasn't even realistic since he re-upped with his team.)

Honestly what would you have them do differently? Draft a 5th round OT prospect? What would have fixed everything?

Well, a few things could have been done differently. For example, not trading for Jason Taylor would have allowed us to draft a tackle in the second round this year. More so than the decisions with regard to individual players, its the overall strategy of trading away picks that I think is the problem. This year no second or fourth rounder. In 2007 no second, third, or fourth round picks. In 2006 no first, third, or fourth round picks. These are prime rounds for drafting offensive linemen. For example, the Colts have found offensive line starters in each of the last three years after the first round. They drafted Mike Pollack (RG) last year in the 2nd, Tony Ugoh (LT) in the second in 2007, and Charlie Johnson (LG) in the 6th round in 2006.

Irn-Bru wrote:They could have drafted Meredith, a 2nd to 4th round talent, in the 5th round. That's why I'd say they didn't do everything as well as could be expected.

Irn-Bru wrote:Drafting Meredith in the 5th round (again, just to use the example) wouldn't have guaranteed a Pro-Bowl player to replace Jansen/Heyer. But it very well could have been an upgrade, and perhaps even a workable one until we can more fully address the problem in 1-2 years.

Meredith was a 2nd to 4th round talent? Says who? Mel Kiper? It's incredibly obvious that either no or very few teams had that high a grade on Meredith. He was, if you recall a 5th round pick that had once been passed over by his new team. 7 NFL teams picked tackles before him after the 3rd round... as for him being a possible second (not even Scouts Inc. had him that high) a dozen offensive tackles went in front of him from the second round on, 20 if you just count offensive linemen. Meredith was just not that highly ranked around the NFL. His falling in the draft wasn't a freak accident with the premium on tackles, he was just not considered a good prospect. The Redskins instead went with players they felt had a better chance to develop into NFL starters.

Irn-Bru wrote:It's not so much about fixing everything in one fell swoop as it is taking steps to address the problem. The Redskins got a temporary, workable solution for their DL problems when they drafted Montgomery and Golston in the same draft several years ago. Were they The Solution to our weak DL? No, but they were good enough that we could still have a top-5 defense.

Nevertheless, pressure on the pass rush remained a big concern, and ultimately those two late-round picks weren't going to be the solution. I'd say the Redskins have addressed that remaining issue this offseason through FA and the draft.

The only difference is, Montgomery and Golston were there on their draft boards and were actually ranked highly by the organization. There intention going into that draft was not to stockpile defensive linemen, but they were there in the later rounds and were scouted as potential NFL players. Meredith (nor any other offensive lineman after the 3rd) was not considered a good NFL prospect by the organization.

What I said still stands, over the last couple years the Redskins have handled the offensive line problems pretty well. No one available in the draft so they signed Rabach and Dockery and traded for Kendall. Good, solid moves IMO. You can't always be lucky enough to have quality players drop into your lap in the draft, and Meredith was not considered (by us, or anyone it seems) to be a quality player.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Last year there was a run on tackles and we were too far back in the draft to get an elite one. Granted the Falcons went for Sam Baker with the pick we traded them but there were serious question marks about him from scouts where they thought he wasn't going to be successful. (Perhaps they were wrong, he seems to have done well.)

In 2007 we had line needs sure, but we were picking 6th and no one on the line was worthy of that pick. Joe Thomas and Levi Brown went ahead of us and another offensive lineman wasn't picked for 23 spots. We took Landry instead and even though he hasn't fully developed like we expected he's still a good prospect and may improve his game (he would be a star if Sean Taylor were still alive God rest his soul.)

In 2007 the Redskins added veteran guard Pete Kendall. I know you're talking about adding youth, but that move worked out pretty well. This season they added Derrick Dockey who is much younger and much better. The team cannot have its cake and eat it too. They could have drafted Oher (after Orakpo fell all the way to 13) but that would have been idiotic. The Redskins have addressed their offensive line as well as could be expected in the circumstances. What would have have had them do? Draft Baker in 08? Draft Oher in 09? Sign Jordan Gross? (Which probably wasn't even realistic since he re-upped with his team.)

Honestly what would you have them do differently? Draft a 5th round OT prospect? What would have fixed everything?

Well, a few things could have been done differently. For example, not trading for Jason Taylor would have allowed us to draft a tackle in the second round this year. More so than the decisions with regard to individual players, its the overall strategy of trading away picks that I think is the problem. This year no second or fourth rounder. In 2007 no second, third, or fourth round picks. In 2006 no first, third, or fourth round picks. These are prime rounds for drafting offensive linemen. For example, the Colts have found offensive line starters in each of the last three years after the first round. They drafted Mike Pollack (RG) last year in the 2nd, Tony Ugoh (LT) in the second in 2007, and Charlie Johnson (LG) in the 6th round in 2006.


in last year's draft the Colts found a starting guard in the 2nd round. In 2007 they found a starting left tackle in the second round.

We lost 2 DEs in one week. Something had to be done. The 2nd round pick wasn't the run of the mill trade that should be lumped in with the other trades.

Pete Kendall can also be arguable as worthy of the 4th rounder we had to give up for him. He had to be able to do something right as CP led the league in yards 1/2 thru the season before he and the line got banged up. You can or cannot attribute the injuries to the age of the OLine..it's speculation either way.

We lost 2 DEs in one week. Something had to be done. The 2nd round pick wasn't the run of the mill trade that should be lumped in with the other trades.

When is his career had Jason Taylor played LDE on a regular basis?

Yeah,

Jason Taylor was sought after by other teams and desperate for a D-Lineman we traded a 2nd rounder for one of the top defensive linemen in the league. I'm not going to condemn the Redskins because Taylor suffered a career threatening injury.

Pete Kendall was a two year starter for us so I'd say trading a 5th or 4th for him was an okay deal. (It was only a 4th because he played for so long, he flamed out and the Redskins would have only had to pay a 5th.)

I agree that trading picks too much is bad policy but that was mostly St. Gibbs' problem. He traded picks for Mark Brunell, Rocky McIntosh, T.J. Duckett, and Brandon Lloyd. Some of those cost us multiple picks.

The Redskins have done pretty well under their new unified front office plan. Having a chief executive in charge of personnel like Vinny C. is a lot better for the organization than Dan Snyder and the coach of the month fighting over free agents and draft picks.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Pete Kendall can also be arguable as worthy of the 4th rounder we had to give up for him.

I agree. That's the kind of trading-picks-for-player I don't mind.

You can or cannot attribute the injuries to the age of the OLine..it's speculation either way.

Older players tend to get injured more often. If you have 5 older linemen then you are playing Russian roulette.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Meredith was a 2nd to 4th round talent? Says who? Mel Kiper?

Among other scouts, yes.

It's incredibly obvious that either no or very few teams had that high a grade on Meredith. He was, if you recall a 5th round pick that had once been passed over by his new team.

The Packers selected him even after picking another tackle in the previous round because the value on Meredith was too good to pass up.

For all the jabbering against the idea that Meredith would have been a good pick for the Skins, I don't think anyone has ever fully addressed the issue of the value we would have gotten for the pick. I've watched all of the debates on THN since the moment the pick happened, and that's where I've come down on the issue. We missed out on a chance to pickup good value and get someone who might push for playing time in an area of need.

Meredith was just not that highly ranked around the NFL. His falling in the draft wasn't a freak accident with the premium on tackles, he was just not considered a good prospect.

Suppose nothing about draft day changed except that we picked Meredith in the 5th round. You would be citing Kiper et al. favorably and pointing out the awesome value the Redskins got. That's a lot to have riding on the historical accident of whether or not the Skins chose him. . .

The only difference is, Montgomery and Golston were there on their draft boards and were actually ranked highly by the organization. There intention going into that draft was not to stockpile defensive linemen, but they were there in the later rounds and were scouted as potential NFL players. Meredith (nor any other offensive lineman after the 3rd) was not considered a good NFL prospect by the organization.

Right, and I'm criticizing the organization's judgment. Since that's the issue in question, it begs the question to cite it as your argument.

What I said still stands, over the last couple years the Redskins have handled the offensive line problems pretty well.

I agree with this statement, but despite managing to get along in the past I think we are headed for trouble. The symptoms of our problems really manifesting themselves in the last half of last season. Unless something radical changes on the right side of our line from what it was, we could be in for difficult times on offense this year.

Irn-Bru wrote:The Packers selected him even after picking another tackle in the previous round because the value on Meredith was too good to pass up.

How could you possibly know that? People all over the board are acting like Green Bay was just SHOCKED to see Meredith still on the board and had to take him because it was an incredible value. There strategy could have been best available player highest rated offensive linemen, etc. It doesn't mean they were just bowled over that every single NFL team had passed over him multiple times.

Yes, the offensive line is old and older players have a higher injury risk but they are good players, and is it not rare for BOTH starting tackles and BOTH staring guards to miss significant time? There's no guarantee the Redskins offensive line is going to be healthy, but it's a safer bet than the probability of over half the line going down. Even if they do we have added depth. We have Williams, Heyer and Clark who Bugel likes as tackles, we also may get Pete Kendall back as a reserve with additional interior line prospects the team likes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again going into free agency and the draft the biggest need was defensive line, next was linebacker, offensive line was a pretty distant 3rd in my mind. We executed the offseason pretty well I think, the team is in pretty good shape moving forward and Jason Campbell has his best opportunity to prove he's worth an extension.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:The Packers selected him even after picking another tackle in the previous round because the value on Meredith was too good to pass up.

How could you possibly know that?

If you are asking how I can prove it to a skeptic, I can't. But this was the analysis of the guys on EPSN / NFL Network at the time. I remember them going out of their way to say that the Packers found good value in that pick.

Sure, I can think of all kinds of explanations for why they did it. Maybe they were flipping quarters and called it 'tails.' Who knows? But some explanations appear more likely than others, to me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again going into free agency and the draft the biggest need was defensive line, next was linebacker, offensive line was a pretty distant 3rd in my mind. We executed the offseason pretty well I think, the team is in pretty good shape moving forward and Jason Campbell has his best opportunity to prove he's worth an extension.

Well, then it appears we disagree on the urgency of our OL needs going into the offseason and on how well the Redskins addressed said needs.

PulpExposure wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I can agree with that. But if the team plans to have any success in the future they have to learn to pass block better, and get better personnel if need be.

And I agree. But rebuilding both lines, which is desperately needed, will take more than 1 year. This year, they addressed the d-line, with Haynesworth and Orakpo. Let's see if next year they address the o-line.

I agree, it takes more than one year... that's why we should have addressed the glaring whole on the D-line last year instead of using the first 3 picks on receivers... Cerrato is always a year behind...

I don't care who was drafted in what year when, the fact is if Cerrato and Snyder really placed an emphasis on it, it would have been addressed... That position doesn't sell tickets, so it's not on the top of their "to-do" list... the Right Tackle position has been the source of countless mixups, miscommunications, gafs, missed assignments (there were instances against Dallas, NYG, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore where they were so confused, they blocked no one and JC got hammered, other times they were just too slow, or bulled over) whatever you want to call it, it was embarassing... I hope some of you are right that Jansen has visited the fountain of youth and regained some strength and quickness, but I doubt it and I think we'll be signing someone's castoff by the end of camp...

Skinsfan55 wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:The Packers selected him even after picking another tackle in the previous round because the value on Meredith was too good to pass up.

How could you possibly know that? People all over the board are acting like Green Bay was just SHOCKED to see Meredith still on the board and had to take him because it was an incredible value. There strategy could have been best available player highest rated offensive linemen, etc. It doesn't mean they were just bowled over that every single NFL team had passed over him multiple times.

Yes, the offensive line is old and older players have a higher injury risk but they are good players, and is it not rare for BOTH starting tackles and BOTH staring guards to miss significant time? There's no guarantee the Redskins offensive line is going to be healthy, but it's a safer bet than the probability of over half the line going down. Even if they do we have added depth. We have Williams, Heyer and Clark who Bugel likes as tackles, we also may get Pete Kendall back as a reserve with additional interior line prospects the team likes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again going into free agency and the draft the biggest need was defensive line, next was linebacker, offensive line was a pretty distant 3rd in my mind. We executed the offseason pretty well I think, the team is in pretty good shape moving forward and Jason Campbell has his best opportunity to prove he's worth an extension.

Highly rated players slip all the time. It doesn't mean that scouts are wrong. There weren't really a lot of teams taking tackles after the first couple rounds. You only need 4 OT's on your team tops, compared to positions like secondary, lb, and wr, thats not a lot. The Cowboys reached for a tackle in the third that was rated decent but not as high as Meredith. The Cowboys use their gut a lot, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The packers took Lang in the 4th, who has as much upside as Meredith. They probably went back and forth between taking lang and meredith, which is why they took meredith in the 5th. They don't know which one will be better, so they took both to improve the odds of getting a starter and to have solid depth. 3 or 4 other tackles were taken in that time that I would say were based on their size as opposed to talent level. Kind of like what the skins did with Montgomery. H.B. Blades was the second best MLB in his draft, but he slipped to round 6 due to a lack of measurables. It doesn't matter because he is a football player. he gets it done. While Meredith is very strong and agile, He doesn't have a huge frame, which some teams don't like. Those teams didn't really need a starting OT and were just trying to catch lightning in a bottle based on some upside they see. I guess you could say that about our Cody Glenn pick, although I don't know what his upside is. Or they could have just been going with their gut like the cowboys did.

USAFSkinFan wrote:I don't care who was drafted in what year when, the fact is if Cerrato and Snyder really placed an emphasis on it, it would have been addressed... That position doesn't sell tickets

Okay...so you're saying that DT (Haynesworth) and OG (Dockery) are glamourous positions which sell a lot of tickets?

I mean you think the average fan is going to say "DAMN! The Redskins signed Derrick Dockery. Now I HAVE TO GO TO REDSKINS GAME!"

PulpExposure wrote:

USAFSkinFan wrote:I don't care who was drafted in what year when, the fact is if Cerrato and Snyder really placed an emphasis on it, it would have been addressed... That position doesn't sell tickets

Okay...so you're saying that DT (Haynesworth) and OG (Dockery) are glamourous positions which sell a lot of tickets?

I mean you think the average fan is going to say "DAMN! The Redskins signed Derrick Dockery. Now I HAVE TO GO TO REDSKINS GAME!"

Haynesworth will.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

USAFSkinFan wrote:I don't care who was drafted in what year when, the fact is if Cerrato and Snyder really placed an emphasis on it, it would have been addressed... That position doesn't sell tickets

Okay...so you're saying that DT (Haynesworth) and OG (Dockery) are glamourous positions which sell a lot of tickets?

I mean you think the average fan is going to say "DAMN! The Redskins signed Derrick Dockery. Now I HAVE TO GO TO REDSKINS GAME!"

Haynesworth will.

Even Dock. I liked Kendall. I hope we can get him back for a back up spot somewhere. He is versatile. What I remember about Dock was the stupid jumping offside penalties but otherwise he was decent and a real good run blocker. His pass blocking will be an upgrade and believe it or not they were coming from the left side too. Yes, Dock will help people not sell their tickets and come to the game.