The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Welcome ArlingtonSkinsFan !!!!!

I don't think anyone here is really torching our rookie receivers. DO I have patience? Yes, I do but I am afraid it might mean the end of JC and Zorn if it takes a few years. If our rookies come out and light it up I will be extremely happy not only for them and JC and Zorn but also some pressure will be off our O line and running game as well.

Cooter wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:It was DUMB not to put him back there. The 1st freaking time he touched the ball he ran it back and sealed ARE's fate in my book.

What was Zorn saving him for, TD passes? LOL

Hopefully the rookies begin to step up and then we can afford to put Moss back there. Unfortunately, ARE hasn't been the return threat he was in a Steelers uniform; seems he was a liberal while a Steeler and now a conservative with the Skins.

What would it have hurt to put Moss back there last year during our 2-6 run? What would we have lost? All those TD connections between him and Jason? The double coverage he demands that none of the other WR's can take advantage of? Really....there was ABSOLUTE NO REASON TO NOT PUT HIM BACK THERE.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Cooter wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:It was DUMB not to put him back there. The 1st freaking time he touched the ball he ran it back and sealed ARE's fate in my book.

What was Zorn saving him for, TD passes? LOL

Hopefully the rookies begin to step up and then we can afford to put Moss back there. Unfortunately, ARE hasn't been the return threat he was in a Steelers uniform; seems he was a liberal while a Steeler and now a conservative with the Skins.

What would it have hurt to put Moss back there last year during our 2-6 run? What would we have lost? All those TD connections between him and Jason? The double coverage he demands that none of the other WR's can take advantage of? Really....there was ABSOLUTE NO REASON TO NOT PUT HIM BACK THERE.

Well Moss was drawing double coverage. That in itself make him real valuable and to keeping him healthy. Just like when #28 Green was back there in the old days.... Running into a wedge when you are a small guy spells disaster eventually. He (Moss) should be used in desperation or to light a spark not all the time.

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying about the importance of having a top wide receiver, however, where are we supposed to get one that is as good as any of those that you mentioned above? Plaxico is going to prison. Boldin will cost us a ton, if they even trade him. Harrison is over-the-hill. Holt is essentially the same receiver as Moss at this point in his career. There aren't too many options out there unless a guy like Crabtree miraculously falls to us.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Lets give these rooks more than 1 year to show what they have or don't have, and while we're at it, let's give the coach the same respect. Contrary to popular belief, coaches don't usually come in after the off-season has started and wave a wand and produce a perfect season.

I would say Zorn needs 2 years to get enough of his people in place to even see what he's about. Coaches have new schemes, and some players don't excel in all schemes. If it was that easy, we'd all be head coaches.

On the one hand that's true. Realistically a coach (unless he completely bombs) deserves 3 years to get things in order. On the other hand, last season three rookie head coaches took over teams with losing records in 2007 and made the playoffs.

Mike Smith lead the Falcons to an 11-6 record after a 4-12 season in 2007.

The Dolphins were 1-15 under Cam Cameron in 2007. Tony Sparano took over and the team went 11-5 in 2008.

The Ravens, under Jim Harbough, went 11-5 this season after a 5-11 2007 season.

Fair or not, the NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" league. I think that with the success of some of these first-time head coaches that NFL owners might be even less patient than usual if their teams don't improve within a year or two.

And what do these three teams have in common...

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

I think I see where you are going with this Brad. I agree but I do not want to spend any picks on wide receivers until we know for sure what we have. A vet could help or maybe our rookies will get it done. Too many holes to fill on the o line. They were coming from the right, left and down the middle. Even Samuels was getting beat. He had a decent season out of all the lineman but I did see them coming outside of him not inside of him as much. People think Pete was to blame for that side and Jansen on the other. I think it was all of them and Samuels is still a keeper and a real good starter. He just isn't what he once was. Still good to go though.

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

Wow- I had no idea C. Johnson had such a productive rookie season...that's the first and last time I pull facts out of my ###. I guess what I was getting at is that everyone who supports Campbell is happy to direct blame at the O-Line for his drop-off in production towards the end of last season. When the rookie receivers finally got healthy and had a shot at improving, our O-Line couldn't buy enough time for ANYONE to get open, let alone for Campbell to stay on his feet. There were too may factors working against our whole offense, most notably the constant collapse of the pocket. Build a young, capable O-Line over the next couple of seasons and I think Kelly and Thomas should be the first to benefit. Having veteran role models is def. NOT an issue- Moss, ARE, and Thrash are geezers!

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

Wow- I had no idea C. Johnson had such a productive rookie season...that's the first and last time I pull facts out of my ###. I guess what I was getting at is that everyone who supports Campbell is happy to direct blame at the O-Line for his drop-off in production towards the end of last season. When the rookie receivers finally got healthy and had a shot at improving, our O-Line couldn't buy enough time for ANYONE to get open, let alone for Campbell to stay on his feet. There were too may factors working against our whole offense, most notably the constant collapse of the pocket. Build a young, capable O-Line over the next couple of seasons and I think Kelly and Thomas should be the first to benefit. Having veteran role models is def. NOT an issue- Moss, ARE, and Thrash are geezers!

Hmm, well seeing as Thrash really didn't do much as far as contributing towards getting yards and El couldn't get open (very rarely) when Moss was drawing double coverage...I have to wonder if Thrash will make the team this year and if you were a receiver would you want to learn from a wideout that had as much trouble as they did?

Hmm, well seeing as Thrash really didn't do much as far as contributing towards getting yards and El couldn't get open (very rarely) when Moss was drawing double coverage...I have to wonder if Thrash will make the team this year and if you were a receiver would you want to learn from a wideout that had as much trouble as they did?[/quote]

oops El did get open at times but did he catch the ball?

yeah I know JC should have thrown it better or maybe inside his face mask and get stuck so he couldn't have dropped it. (EL)

Getting off topic a little seeing as people want to talk about Special Teams remember when Pete Rodriguez was in charge? We had Brian Mitchell and Matt Turk if I am not mistaken Chip Lohmiller and company. Those guys could keep field position. Look them up. Maybe I am wrong and they didn't all play at the same time but I think you get my drift.

We have a lot of good players and we can win we are not an eight and eight team we just need someone to catch something once in a while and to relieve Portis (Big Burden) some and at least one receiver and a plug here and there on the o line and we are contenders.

Kilmer72 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:Does anyone remember Calvin Johnson's rookie season?? All I kept hearing after his mediocre inaugural campaign was that it takes time to develop wide receivers out of college- and look at what happened after his rookie year. Nobody expected our rookies to do anything significant on the field their first season, and yet everyone on here was so quick to torch them for being unproductive. GIVE THEM A FIGHTING CHANCE!

Although there may be some truth to Kelly being a bust because of ongoing knee problems, isn't that why we drafted two receivers on day 1 of the draft? If one of them becomes a viable #1 receiver in the next couple of seasons, I'd say the draft strategy was successful.

Calvin Johnson actually had a productive rookie season. 48 catches, 756 yards, and 4 td's is good for a rookie receiver. Heck, he had better numbers his rookie than ARE has ever had.

I think that's the point, we saw NOTHING to suggest the WR's we drafted will pan out. They could, they weren't exactly on the field alot to prove it, but it has not been seen. So how can a team that needs to do much better on offense become complacent at receiver - which is becoming one of the most important positions in the game? Plax took a team to a Super Bowl victory, Fitz took a team to a Super Bowl. Even somebody like Holmes on the Steelers, making clutch catches and getting open late in the game. There is no way to jumpstart an offense quicker than getting a WR.

Wow- I had no idea C. Johnson had such a productive rookie season...that's the first and last time I pull facts out of my ###. I guess what I was getting at is that everyone who supports Campbell is happy to direct blame at the O-Line for his drop-off in production towards the end of last season. When the rookie receivers finally got healthy and had a shot at improving, our O-Line couldn't buy enough time for ANYONE to get open, let alone for Campbell to stay on his feet. There were too may factors working against our whole offense, most notably the constant collapse of the pocket. Build a young, capable O-Line over the next couple of seasons and I think Kelly and Thomas should be the first to benefit. Having veteran role models is def. NOT an issue- Moss, ARE, and Thrash are geezers!

Hmm, well seeing as Thrash really didn't do much as far as contributing towards getting yards and El couldn't get open (very rarely) when Moss was drawing double coverage...I have to wonder if Thrash will make the team this year and if you were a receiver would you want to learn from a wideout that had as much trouble as they did?

Well, we could draft Harvin at No. 13. Too bad we need an OL more than breath. If you think Crabtree's as good as a healthy Harvin, you haven't been watching at the right times. A healthy Harvin would become a HOF Harvin, but it's not going to happen. I watched him in high school. He's brittle and a thug-- a bad combination. He's caused some of the most monster collisions in football and typically come out the loser. He was hurting during the combine-- that's why he ran only a 4.4 forty.

Well, we could draft Harvin at No. 13. Too bad we need an OL more than breath. If you think Crabtree's as good as a healthy Harvin, you haven't been watching at the right times. A healthy Harvin would become a HOF Harvin, but it's not going to happen.

Like you said, Harvin can't stay healthy. He also isn't a very good route runner.

Kilmer72 wrote:Hmm, well seeing as Thrash really didn't do much as far as contributing towards getting yards and El couldn't get open (very rarely) when Moss was drawing double coverage...I have to wonder if Thrash will make the team this year and if you were a receiver would you want to learn from a wideout that had as much trouble as they did?

oops El did get open at times but did he catch the ball?

yeah I know JC should have thrown it better or maybe inside his face mask and get stuck so he couldn't have dropped it. (EL)

Getting off topic a little seeing as people want to talk about Special Teams remember when Pete Rodriguez was in charge? We had Brian Mitchell and Matt Turk if I am not mistaken Chip Lohmiller and company. Those guys could keep field position. Look them up. Maybe I am wrong and they didn't all play at the same time but I think you get my drift.

We have a lot of good players and we can win we are not an eight and eight team we just need someone to catch something once in a while and to relieve Portis (Big Burden) some and at least one receiver and a plug here and there on the o line and we are contenders.[/quote]

Still have no idea why so many Skins fans are so down on ARE as a WR. A a PR, I agree completely, he might have been the worst in the NFL last year. But he has had his three best season (as a WR) with the Skins and was more productive than more than half of the #2 WR's in the league. Don't believe me look it up!

I know the Patriots and Cardinals had #3 that were better than ARE but he was better than the #1 on several teams: Vikes, Titans, CHawks, 49ers, and Bears. And by the way he an Ocho Cinco had the same number of catches but #85 had way fewer yards.

He would be better as a #3. And I for one would love to see Torry Holt in a Skins uni!

thrash always makes the team cuz hes old and we love him........billy mac beat him out last year......dude is wasting time devin could have been developing

adios thrash....let devin return kicks too

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:Hmm, well seeing as Thrash really didn't do much as far as contributing towards getting yards and El couldn't get open (very rarely) when Moss was drawing double coverage...I have to wonder if Thrash will make the team this year and if you were a receiver would you want to learn from a wideout that had as much trouble as they did?

oops El did get open at times but did he catch the ball?

yeah I know JC should have thrown it better or maybe inside his face mask and get stuck so he couldn't have dropped it. (EL)

Getting off topic a little seeing as people want to talk about Special Teams remember when Pete Rodriguez was in charge? We had Brian Mitchell and Matt Turk if I am not mistaken Chip Lohmiller and company. Those guys could keep field position. Look them up. Maybe I am wrong and they didn't all play at the same time but I think you get my drift.

We have a lot of good players and we can win we are not an eight and eight team we just need someone to catch something once in a while and to relieve Portis (Big Burden) some and at least one receiver and a plug here and there on the o line and we are contenders.

Still have no idea why so many Skins fans are so down on ARE as a WR. A a PR, I agree completely, he might have been the worst in the NFL last year. But he has had his three best season (as a WR) with the Skins and was more productive than more than half of the #2 WR's in the league. Don't believe me look it up!

I know the Patriots and Cardinals had #3 that were better than ARE but he was better than the #1 on several teams: Vikes, Titans, CHawks, 49ers, and Bears. And by the way he an Ocho Cinco had the same number of catches but #85 had way fewer yards.

He would be better as a #3. And I for one would love to see Torry Holt in a Skins uni![/quote]

I am not really too down on RE look at my previous posts. I do have to say that even if he was better than some teams number 3 in my mind he could be more valuable at number 4 considering the potential in Thomas and Kelly+Moss maybe even a vet. Wow this site is a little messed up. Quotes arent working for me at least.

we dont need a new wide out.

the old guys we could get are old.

the young guys we have could have a great upside with a couple years under their collective belts.

The real issue is the O line. if JC had time and could get the ball to our new young guns we wouldnt be saying, "we need (insert old fart/flashy a** clown here)". we would be saying, "wow, i knew jason had it in him! man our wide outs look great!"

this thread is an exercise in futility. no one wide out is going to change things around here. O LINE O LINE O LINE

by the by, if we draft a wide out with our first pick im going to jump off a cliff... wide outs dont mature till their thrid year (unless they are the second coming in which case they mature in their second year)

no more young wide outs. we have two, one will work out after a couple years. O LINE O LINE O LINE!!!

TincoSkin wrote:by the by, if we draft a wide out with our first pick im going to jump off a cliff...

Tinc... maybe you should move to Kansas until the end of the month... just to be safe.





for the geographically impaired, it's hard to find a cliff over 5 feet in Kansas...

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I'm freaking tired of ARE. Not only should be no higher than a slot WR, these "genius" coaches are hell bent on keeping him at PR...

I'd rather have Rock back there than ARE. Supposedly we picked up some guy from the CFL (or somewhere) that specialized in returns. Hopefully he performs and they hand the reigns to him.

I don't understand it either Chris. There must be a reason for Rock not getting the ball on punt returns. Thrash would have even been better than EL. I guess he can't do it anymore or he would have been back there. Randle El does have a place on this team though but as a number 4. He does make plays occasionally. He is great to have if someone goes down. Even an emergency quarterback. So that brings us back to our rookies only having one real mentor.

I'm still of the mindset of putting Moss back there full time. That guy's frekaing exciting to watch as a PR. Kinda like back in the day when ole #28 used to do it...

I agree Moss is fantastic as a PR or KR.

I think we have to play wait and see with thomas and Kelly. A lot of the FA recievers left are to old or have character issues. Boldin would cost to much. Drafting a receiver/returner or big end zone threat (ramseys barden/patrick turner) in the later rounds is OK. They should make a play at a cheaper UFA like miles austin, Drew Carter, Joe Jurevicius, KR shaun mcdonald.

Holt and Burress would both be huge upgrades allowing Moss to be a #2 and giving the Campbell a more reliable third down and red zone threat. The real questions around those two guys would be price and in Burress' case, his legal status.

Kilmer72 wrote:We have a lot of good players and we can win
we are not an 8-8 team:
1 we just need someone to catch something once in a while
2 to relieve Portis (Big Burden) some
3 at least one receiver
4,5,6,7 a plug here and there on the o line

and we are contenders.

Well, you're part way there There are a couple more additions to the offense and we might even get to be as competitive as we want here.

As far as the WR position is concerned, I really would like to see us get a decent #1 and I have to assume that Thomas or Kelly must be making Zorn feel better about that otherwise we would have made more of an effort to bring in a Torry Holt or similar to "fill" that role until they are ready so we can free up Moss and everyone else as I'm sure Zorn would like to.

As far as guys like ARE and Thrash is concerned there are a lot of coaches who will select the players who make the most effort to be better over the player who has the talent but not the desire to be better.

Gibbs has always preffered the team player over the 'star' player - a player who makes a great effort to help himself AND the team be better is much better than a player who considers that he makes the team better by just being on the team.

fleetus wrote:Holt and Burress would both be huge upgrades allowing Moss to be a #2 and giving the Campbell a more reliable third down and red zone threat. The real questions around those two guys would be price and in Burress' case, his legal status.

Well, that and the possibility that the next time he tries to kneecap himself, he may actually hit it...

fleetus wrote:Holt and Burress would both be huge upgrades allowing Moss to be a #2 and giving the Campbell a more reliable third down and red zone threat. The real questions around those two guys would be price and in Burress' case, his legal status.

Burress is going to prison and is likely to be suspended by the NFL.