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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:51 pm
by VetSkinsFan
fleetus wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:fleetus wrote:If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.
Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...
So his play last year
before injuries didn't seem an improvement to you?
66% completions
8 TD, 0 INT
1754 yds.
90 QB RATING
6-2 record
Well okay then, we all have our differing opinions. I definitely saw an improved QB. In fact, even during training camp last year I remember telling friends that just seeing JC speak, he seemed a much more mature guy and at ease with his role as a team leader. But anyway, time will tell. I definitely expect to see more of what we saw during the first half of last season again in 2009.
Yeah, well, stats can be cherry picked to support an angenda. I could have cherry picked the second 1/2 of the season to support mine.
You're right, though, time will tell. I'm looking forward to seeing what's on the table this season...
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:57 pm
by CanesSkins26
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
The Steelers had an offensive line that struggled for most of the season. Yet Big Ben still led them to the Super Bowl. He didn't have the best numbers of his career but when it counted he made plays. When have you seen JC step up and actually make something out of nothing, put the team on his back, and win games?
Rookie qb's did better than JC in 2009. How come they are able to better adjust to a new system than JC? Drew Brees, in his first season in New Orleans, had a huge year. New system didn't seem to give him any trouble. At this point it's all just excuses for JC.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:01 pm
by CanesSkins26
But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE)
Just another excuse. In 2007, Drew Brees completed 67.5 percent of his passes (3rd best in the NF) despite having not one, but two players on his team that were tied for the NFL lead in most dropped passes (Henderson and Bush).
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:16 pm
by Deadskins
CanesSkins26 wrote:When have you seen JC step up and actually make something out of nothing, put the team on his back, and win games?
He did it against New Orleans last season. He also had a nice play for a TD that was called back because of a penalty on Rabach. But those were the only times.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:36 pm
by Countertrey
Big Ben still led them to the Super Bowl. He didn't have the best numbers of his career but when it counted he made plays. When have you seen JC step up and actually make something out of nothing, put the team on his back, and win games?
And, therein lies the rub. No fire in the belly.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:17 pm
by Cooter
CanesSkins26 wrote: But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE)
Just another excuse. In 2007, Drew Brees completed 67.5 percent of his passes (3rd best in the NF) despite having not one, but two players on his team that were tied for the NFL lead in most dropped passes (Henderson and Bush).
Good point, but you have to look at the different philosophies of the teams. Brees (2007) had 652 pass attempts compared to Campbell's (2008) 506. Although the Saints had two receivers tied for the NFL lead in dropped passes, Brees had 146 more opportunities to raise that completion rate...
...On the flip side Moss had 8 dropped passes last year (6th in the NFC) and El isn't even listed in the top 20. Although the dropped passes stung, with their bad timing, they didn't happen as often as some of us might have thought. In my humble opinion Campbell's woes cannot be blamed on the recievers.
For the record, like many of you, I'd like to see Campbell succeed and get the contract that will keep a young quality quarterback in D.C. for years to come. For some of you, the jury may have come down with their verdict, but mine is still deliberating.
Got my stats from NFL.com and here:
http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/league ... opped.html.
Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:37 pm
by markshark84
VetSkinsFan wrote:fleetus wrote:If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.
Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...
That has been my issue with this board. Members seek to blame everything and everyone else other than the on-field-person-in-charge -- the QB. I don't quite understand why -- because after a year or so with Spurrier, the fans ran Ramsey out of town. In the past 4 years, we have been to the playoffs twice --- neither a result of JC's play or leadership. It seems that whenever JC plays, we miss the playoffs and whenever he doesn't play, we make the playoffs.
I do hope that JC performs well next year, but I wouldn't count on it. He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve. He actually got worse over last season --- and personally, I think that was because the offense went through him and not CP.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:07 am
by MakeRomoCry
markshark84 wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:fleetus wrote:If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.
Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...
That has been my issue with this board. Members seek to blame everything and everyone else other than the on-field-person-in-charge -- the QB. I don't quite understand why -- because after a year or so with Spurrier, the fans ran Ramsey out of town. In the past 4 years, we have been to the playoffs twice --- neither a result of JC's play or leadership. It seems that whenever JC plays, we miss the playoffs and whenever he doesn't play, we make the playoffs.
I do hope that JC performs well next year, but I wouldn't count on it. He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve. He actually got worse over last season --- and personally, I think that was because the offense went through him and not CP.
Your problem with this board is that some people blame everyone but the QB, yet adversely, you want to blame no one but the quarterback.
I can't speak for everyone that is an advocate of Campbell, but the point I was trying to make was that the offensive decline last year was a result of many factors from the coaching on down to the players. Campbell certainly could have played better down the stretch and it would be unfair to leave him out of the blame. I think most reasonable fans are in agreement that this year will decide not only the outcome of our QB, but many other things that will eventually determine the fate of this team. I only attempted to point out that he has been a solid QB despite a very tumultuous set of circumstances. Some would say that he hasn't improved vastly from year to year, but the fact is, he has improved. You would argue that there is no reason to think he will get better- and would even go so far as to say that he just suddenly forgot how to play. The play of the entire team suffered at the midway point last year and not just the QB. From what I've gathered here, the few JC supporters there are, at least are a little more objective and can admit that there's room for improvement. You however, seem to have more of a slanted view in that theres no way this kid could possibly improve.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:14 am
by Hoss
^^^^Well said.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:30 am
by PulpExposure
Hoss wrote:^^^^Well said.
Agreed. I don't think Campbell is Peyton Manning, or even close, but the decline of the Redskins offense was due to a lot of factors (Campbell's play being only
one of them).
Just as silly as blaming everyone but Campbell for the offense's putrid production, is blaming no one but Campbell.
Oh and...
He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year
Yeah, drastically reducing the number of turnovers (by basically half) isn't a significant improvement.
Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:13 am
by VetSkinsFan
Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
I'll give 'em that much, put the points on the board (or lack of) is the single most important point. And as stated many times, it's not exclusively JC's fault, but he certainly hasn't gone above and beyond, either, IMO.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:45 am
by CanesSkins26
Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
That's nice and all but the rest of his numbers stayed virtually the same from 2007 to 2008. The low int numbers suggest to me that he is afraid of making mistakes, not that he has developed or improved. Even the best qb's in the league (Warner, Manning, Brees, etc.) usually throw double digit int's in a season. Campbell's 11 int's in 13 games in 2007 wasn't all that high of a number. And the fumble issue from 2007 is vastly overplayed. Tom Brady has fumbled 12 or more times in a season three times during his career. Fumbles can be a fluke thing. So you can point to the lower number of turnovers as signs of development but I think what is more telling is that his td's and yards per attempt were virtually identical to 2007. It goes beyond the statistics though. He just doesn't seem to have the fire and playmaking ability to be a top NFL qb.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:11 pm
by fleetus
Okay, so basically most of us agree Campbell is not THE reason for lackluster offense and most of us agree Campbell is certainly at least partly responsible for the sub-par offense.
Within that framework, I definitely feel that O-line age, lack of depth and injuries are the biggest factor. I've always believed that offense starts with your O-line. They make the QB look good, WR's look good and the RB look good. We can talk about Portis performance all we want, but we've all seen Portis struggle behind mediocre lines. It starts with the line. For analytical people like myself, I'll give the blame factor a number, say 35%.
Next in the blame category are the WR's. I don't think you could find more than a few teams in the NFL that would trade their WR corps for ours. Moss is very good in general, but not #1 material and not red zone savvy and does have some dropsies compared to other "#1 WR's". ARE would be a decent #3, although he might not crack the top 3 for about half of NFL teams, IMO. Kelly and Thomas were almost non-factors as rookies, but too early to write them off for 2009 and 10. So give the WR corps 30% of the blame. Rarely did they help win a game and many times their missed routes and dropped passes were the crucial plays that meant losing in the 4th Quarter. So 30%.
Then there is Coaching. I feel like Zorn had the rookie factor as well and maybe we can hope for more offensive creativity this year. But for sure the offense lacked surprise in many games. We were basically a one trick pony with Portis. By the 2nd half of the season teams had scouted us and knew that Zorn didn't have many aces up his sleeve and all they had to do was stop Portis. Of course, a clutch WR could have been an ace up the sleeve in games, but we didn't have one. About the same time we were labeled a one trick Pony, Portis and the O-line started getting banged up, so we were basically inept on offense. Credit the defense that we were not lose by larger margins in the last 8 games. So I give the coaches 25% of the blame.
Lastly is Campbell. I feel that we saw both sides of JC last year. We saw a more mature leader who managed games very well, threw with better accuracy and did not turn the ball over. Perfect complement to a power running game and solid defense. (until the power running game isn't there and you realize your WR's are inconsistent) But then, he is "THE QB" and if you're going to judge him on the same scale as Manning, Brady, Warner and Rothlisberger, then Campbell could have had more poise when under fire and made things happen on his own in more instances. So I blame JC 20%. Largely because I feel he is handicapped some with sub-par receiving, a porous offensive line (2nd half) and banged up running game. Not sure how much is related to learning a new system. JC never complained about it and seem to take it in stride, so maybe it is not a big deal. but certainly, he will be more comfortable this year and maybe that comfort factor makes a difference when you have to make split second decision when you are being sacked 2 seconds after the snap. So JC gets more of a pass (from me) at 20% blame for the offensive woes. I've now seen him step up his game when he is given a little time in the pocket.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:18 pm
by PulpExposure
VetSkinsFan wrote:Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
I'll give 'em that much, put the points on the board (or lack of) is the single most important point. And as stated many times, it's not exclusively JC's fault, but he certainly hasn't gone above and beyond, either, IMO.
Understand. If he had thrown for 30 TDs, no one here would be complaining about him.
But it's disingenious to say that he showed no significant improvement at all. I'd say on a team that's predicated on running the ball and playing tough defense, cutting down turnovers by half is a pretty significant improvement.
Also, I'd say unlike Manning, Brady, or Warner's teams, our teams are built to play low-scoring games. We are predicated on defense and running the ball, and I can't recall a single NFL team that had a similar style of play...and was a high scoring team.
And, since our defense just doesn't seem to get turnovers, an offense that turns the ball in this situation would just be deadly. Remember how when the Ravens won the Superbowl, Trent Dilfer was put in basically only because he didn't make mistakes. They knew they could win with defense and running...if they had a QB who didn't make Tony Banks-esque mistakes.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:36 pm
by CanesSkins26
But it's disingenious to say that he showed no significant improvement at all. I'd say on a team that's predicated on running the ball and playing tough defense, cutting down turnovers by half is a pretty significant improvement.
Also, I'd say unlike Manning, Brady, or Warner's teams, our teams are built to play low-scoring games. We are predicated on defense and running the ball, and I can't recall a single NFL team that had a similar style of play...and was a high scoring team.
Under Gibbs our team was built to play low scoring games. However, under Zorn we were supposed to see a more open, west coast style passing game. Well we didn't really see that last season. Part of the blame belongs to Zorn in implementing his passing game, but part of it also falls on JC for his inability to make plays and fully execute the offense.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:42 pm
by PulpExposure
CanesSkins26 wrote:But it's disingenious to say that he showed no significant improvement at all. I'd say on a team that's predicated on running the ball and playing tough defense, cutting down turnovers by half is a pretty significant improvement.
Also, I'd say unlike Manning, Brady, or Warner's teams, our teams are built to play low-scoring games. We are predicated on defense and running the ball, and I can't recall a single NFL team that had a similar style of play...and was a high scoring team.
Under Gibbs our team was built to play low scoring games. However, under Zorn we were supposed to see a more open, west coast style passing game. Well we didn't really see that last season. Part of the blame belongs to Zorn in implementing his passing game, but part of it also falls on JC for his inability to make plays and fully execute the offense.
Agreed, but you're not going to change the fundamental makeup of a team overnight. For example, our offensive line was built to play smashmouth, and it takes time to get players who may fit a less physical style of play (more finesse).
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:39 pm
by yupchagee
CanesSkins26 wrote:Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
That's nice and all but the rest of his numbers stayed virtually the same from 2007 to 2008. The low int numbers suggest to me that he is afraid of making mistakes, not that he has developed or improved. Even the best qb's in the league (Warner, Manning, Brees, etc.) usually throw double digit int's in a season. Campbell's 11 int's in 13 games in 2007 wasn't all that high of a number. And the fumble issue from 2007 is vastly overplayed. Tom Brady has fumbled 12 or more times in a season three times during his career. Fumbles can be a fluke thing. So you can point to the lower number of turnovers as signs of development but I think what is more telling is that his td's and yards per attempt were virtually identical to 2007. It goes beyond the statistics though. He just doesn't seem to have the fire and playmaking ability to be a top NFL qb.
I agree. What I see lacking in Campbell is a QB's temperment. He lets mistakes get to him & effect his play for later games. Top QB's don't do that.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:35 pm
by Deadskins
CanesSkins26 wrote:Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
That's nice and all but the rest of his numbers stayed virtually the same from 2007 to 2008.
Not true.
Code: Select all
Season Passing Rushing Fumbles
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
2008 16 16 315 506 62.3 3,245 6.4 13 6 38 266 84.3 47 258 5.5 1 7 1
2007 13 13 250 417 60.0 2,700 6.5 12 11 21 110 77.6 36 185 5.1 1 13 8
2006 7 7 110 207 53.1 1,297 6.3 10 6 7 55 76.5 24 107 4.5 0 1 0
CanesSkins26 wrote:Tom Brady has fumbled 12 or more times in a season three times during his career.
Tom Brady doesn't fumble; he tucks the ball.
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:58 am
by El Mexican
As someone before pointed out, the crucial stat when gauging effective offenses should Average yards per pass.
Campbell has a low number, 6.4 ypp, whilst the highest number last year was achieved by Philip Rivers: 8.4, even though Campbell had both more attempts and completions (315 of 506 for JC vs. 312 of 478 by Rivers).
This numbers reflects not only the effectiveness of the QB, but also the philosophy of the team´s offense.
Until that number goes up considerably, I would be very cautious of expecting an incredible offense.
It can be done, though. Rypien did it 91 and he won the SB with an amazing 8.5 ypp, while the previous year he had a mediocre 6.8 ypp.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... piMa00.htm
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-p=1
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:21 pm
by Cooter
El Mexican wrote:As someone before pointed out, the crucial stat when gauging effective offenses should Average yards per pass.
I believe the most "crucial" thing a quarterback must possess doesn't exist on the stat sheet. Making the right play at the right time; see Ben Roethliberger. I am not superly (I know it's not a word) in love with Ben, but the kid knows how to win and make plays when his teams needs it.
El Mexican wrote:Campbell has a low number, 6.4 ypp, whilst the highest number last year was achieved by Philip Rivers: 8.4, even though Campbell had both more attempts and completions (315 of 506 for JC vs. 312 of 478 by Rivers).
I may be wrong, but San Diego doesn't run the WCO so this is sort of an unfair comparison. The WCO calls for short passes and relies on the receivers to get YAC. While not shoving the blame on any particular person or position, they all share the blame, the 6.4 ypp isn't that bad compared to other WCO quarterbacks (McNabb 6.9, Jeff Garcia 7.2, Hasselbeck 5.8 (Hurt last year), 7.1 (2007), and 6.6 (2006)).
El Mexican wrote:This numbers reflects not only the effectiveness of the QB, but also the philosophy of the team´s offense.
More philosophy than effectiveness.
El Mexican wrote:Until that number goes up considerably, I would be very cautious of expecting an incredible offense.
With our defense, especially with our recent additions, I don't think we're going to need an incredible offense. We moved the ball well between the 20's last year, but just couldn't punch it in the end zone. No doubt Campbell needs to step up and what better year than his contract year.
El Mexican wrote:It can be done, though. Rypien did it 91 and he won the SB with an amazing 8.5 ypp, while the previous year he had a mediocre 6.8 ypp.
Completely different offensive system.
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:53 pm
by El Mexican
Agreed on all accounts, cooter. Thanks for the insight.
The Big Ben comparison sounds right, though. Just to undust another memory of yore, I clearly remember that before the 1991 season, coaches asked Rypien to have more "fire in the belly", as you and other poster have pointed out. He delivered big time.
So the lesson for JC would be that your leadership skills can also be perfected with hardwork and experience. Not all QBs are born with these abilities.
As much as JC improved last year, this season he has to focus more on the "intangibles": leading his team out of a funk (like he did during the NO game at Fed Ex during the first part of the season).
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:11 pm
by Cooter
El Mexican wrote:So the lesson for JC would be that your leadership skills can also be perfected with hardwork and experience. Not all QBs are born with these abilities.
You're right, and unfortunately it's also hard to see if a quarterbacks "it" factor will translate to the professional level. I highly doubt anyone in Pittsburgh was excited when they drafted Roethlisberger (were probably wondering who the hell he was), but it has turned out nice for them. Hopefully Campbell will develop "it," but my perception at the moment is that he's too, for better lack of a term, mellow.
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:48 pm
by VetSkinsFan
PulpExposure wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:Fumbles & INTs in 2007: 24 (in 13 games). Fumbles & INTs in 2008: 13 (in 16 games). Nope, not a significant improvement at all. Nope!
I'll give 'em that much, put the points on the board (or lack of) is the single most important point. And as stated many times, it's not exclusively JC's fault, but he certainly hasn't gone above and beyond, either, IMO.
Understand. If he had thrown for 30 TDs, no one here would be complaining about him.
But it's disingenious to say that he showed no significant improvement at all. I'd say on a team that's predicated on running the ball and playing tough defense, cutting down turnovers by half is a pretty significant improvement.
Also, I'd say unlike Manning, Brady, or Warner's teams, our teams are built to play low-scoring games. We are predicated on defense and running the ball, and I can't recall a single NFL team that had a similar style of play...and was a high scoring team.
And, since our defense just doesn't seem to get turnovers, an offense that turns the ball in this situation would just be deadly. Remember how when the Ravens won the Superbowl, Trent Dilfer was put in basically only because he didn't make mistakes. They knew they could win with defense and running...if they had a QB who didn't make Tony Banks-esque mistakes.
These are good points and I can agree with them, BUT,
-in your Difler analogy, he does make mistakes.
-Our running game breaks down every year because our line breaks down and our backs break down.
-Our defense was in no way in the same caliber the Ravens were in this instance. We don't get TOs to keep the other team's O off the field.
In that comparison, the skins pale in comparison to that Ravns analogy.
As for JC, I just don't see him progressing as he should. His reads haven't gotten faster. His judgment hasn't gotten better. I would say his long ball has deteriorated since he came here.
Stat, stat, stat. Yes, his stats look better on paper. He didn't fumble as much. I also think his yearly TDs went down this year as well. His YPG were about the same. YPC was better.
IMO, here's the bottom line: this is his year. We've strengthened the line. 2nd year in JZ's scheme. Whether it's his fault, JZ's fault, as long as we don't have an offensive line breakdown like we did before, if he doesn't get it done, he gets going. I don't want to 'give him one more chance' all the way to retirement.
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:14 pm
by markshark84
MakeRomoCry wrote:markshark84 wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:fleetus wrote:If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.
Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...
That has been my issue with this board. Members seek to blame everything and everyone else other than the on-field-person-in-charge -- the QB. I don't quite understand why -- because after a year or so with Spurrier, the fans ran Ramsey out of town. In the past 4 years, we have been to the playoffs twice --- neither a result of JC's play or leadership. It seems that whenever JC plays, we miss the playoffs and whenever he doesn't play, we make the playoffs.
I do hope that JC performs well next year, but I wouldn't count on it. He has NOT shown significant improvement year to year and other than this being his contract year, I don't see why he will improve. He actually got worse over last season --- and personally, I think that was because the offense went through him and not CP.
Your problem with this board is that some people blame everyone but the QB, yet adversely, you want to blame no one but the quarterback.
I can't speak for everyone that is an advocate of Campbell, but the point I was trying to make was that the offensive decline last year was a result of many factors from the coaching on down to the players. Campbell certainly could have played better down the stretch and it would be unfair to leave him out of the blame. I think most reasonable fans are in agreement that this year will decide not only the outcome of our QB, but many other things that will eventually determine the fate of this team. I only attempted to point out that he has been a solid QB despite a very tumultuous set of circumstances. Some would say that he hasn't improved vastly from year to year, but the fact is, he has improved. You would argue that there is no reason to think he will get better- and would even go so far as to say that he just suddenly forgot how to play. The play of the entire team suffered at the midway point last year and not just the QB. From what I've gathered here, the few JC supporters there are, at least are a little more objective and can admit that there's room for improvement. You however, seem to have more of a slanted view in that theres no way this kid could possibly improve.
Quick points:
- I wouldn't say "solid". I would put him as "mediocre". "Solid" in my mind means above average. If his play had been "solid", we would not be discussing this season as his make-or-break year.
- I don't believe he has improved as a going on fifth year player. Generally a QB is given three years. It is time for the fans of washington to take the training wheels off --- regardless of the excuses given for him. Also, I myself, would not say that he suddenly forgot how to play. Maybe you were just attempting to make me appear to be an idiot -- who knows, but that is a ludicrious statement.
- The "little" JC supporters, have to be appear "objective" because they need to find excuses for his poor play. I consider myself a very objective person. I do realize that there is problems on the O-Line, with our inept WRs, and coaching, but personally, I think that the thing that would best remody those issues (other than coaching) is starting with the QB. Besides, isn't that what the "experts" say is the first step in building a franchise?
- In terms of putting words in my mouth, I have no idea whether or not JC can improve. Personally, I think that based on his past performances, starting with his first year here (or second, I guess), I have not seen significant improvement --- and I don't care about fumbles or the other stuff (and by the stats above, it only appears that the only other stat he significantly improved upon (other than fumbles) was pass attempts). I care about leadership, wins, and points. In that respect, he has not improved. If you think he has, please provide me with facts that show he has improved in any one of those categories (except for leadership, I guess, because it is so "subjective" and we want to stay away from that, now don't we....).
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:39 pm
by yupchagee
fleetus wrote:VetSkinsFan wrote:fleetus wrote:If you look at the top QB's in the game, Brady, Manning, Warner etc. I think you'll notice several OBVIOUS differences from JC.
1. The Offensive line they play behind
2. The WR's they throw to
3. More than one season with their respective offensive systems
Now i agree, JC still has to prove he can play a whole season and I'm not labeling him as anything until I see him play another season. But you have to consider the dropsy smurfs (Moss and ARE) along with injuries to Portis, Kendall, Thomas, Jansen and Heyer when you grade JC's 2008 season. Another year with Zorn and possibly better luck with injuries (signing Haynesworth hasn't helped our main issues from 2008, O-line and depth) will give JC a chance to silence the critics. But there is no doubt he has skills. And I personally have doubt that we could find a better QB very easily. We would either have to give out another Haynesworth deal to a free agent QB or move up in the draft one year to select another unknown quantity rookie.
Stats aside, my issue is that his play hasn't improved much since he was named starter. When I think back, I don'tthink of "JC's been improving," it's more of the midset of he's been relatively static. I'm hoping that systems, aging line, ect ect is the problem and not him, but it's tough to make a case for one person with everyone around him is at fault and he goes free...
So his play last year before injuries didn't seem an improvement to you?
66% completions
8 TD, 0 INT
1754 yds.
90 QB RATING
6-2 record
Well okay then, we all have our differing opinions. I definitely saw an improved QB. In fact, even during training camp last year I remember telling friends that just seeing JC speak, he seemed a much more mature guy and at ease with his role as a team leader. But anyway, time will tell. I definitely expect to see more of what we saw during the first half of last season again in 2009.
He played well till he threw his 1st int. He went rapidly downhill from there.