The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Redskin in Canada wrote:How come other teams' first season QBs are thrown in there and succeed and ours need almost decades to be groomed?

Three systems in four years... it can't be trivialized.

The ENTIRE offense never grasped Saunders 700 page playbook. I even remember the receivers having major problems trying to learn the numbered route system used by Saunders. (By the way, Saunders 700 page playbook hasn't been successful yet in St. Louis either, the Rams ranked 27th in total offense.)

Now JC is in his third offensive system, which, system wise, is completely different than whats been run in DC for decades. JC lead the team to a 6-2 record at the mid-way point and then the wheels fell of the entire offense. What happened? Did JC forget how to throw or hand the ball off? I doubt it. RB injuries and o-line problems were major contributing factors in the meltdown.

As some have argued, Portis was used a quite a bit in the first half of the season, but it was still a balanced attack. At no time were the run/pass ratios skewed heavily towards the run. It was a balanced attack for even a WCO. And for the record, Zorn still hasn't fully implemented his WCO run game, they were still using Gibbs' run schemes. So, as some of you have claimed that JC has taken too long to learn the system, the entire system isn't even in place yet. It takes time... and I'm not sure many here have ANY idea what it takes to fully learn an offensive system, let alone three systems in four years.

The fact remains that even when Campbell shows he can be a decent QB he still will just be a good QB not a great QB and while he should get every opportunity to be our QB for this season we all understand that there is no way that he is going to ever be good enough to lead this team in 2011.

We are going to need to find out how good Brennan is and we need to start getting someone else ready also.

Let's consider that the first 6 games of 2008 were a result of his play at QB - that level of QB play is not going to get us very far - I know the record was 6-2 but the quality of play from our QB was certainly not good enough to make anyone other than JLC and Jaws think that this kid was special. Of those 6 wins we were not the better team when compared with at least 3 of the teams we 'beat'.

Campbell should and will get a lot of support from Zorn but we need and deserve a great QB not a good QB.

SkinsFreak wrote:Three systems in four years... it can't be trivialized.

1. I gave not one but two examples who had NOT PLAYED before. Jason Campbell had more experience as an NFL QB than Ryan and Cassell COMBINED at the beginning of the last season. Both of them outperformed him.

2. Sure, sure, sure ... the OL, the DL, the stupid short or rookie receivers not running their routes and not getting enough open spaces, injuries, blah, blah blah ...

We KNOW about those. I am not asking for a Superbowl. I said as much at the beginning of last season. This WAS NOT a SB Team. What you fail to acknowledge is that what most of us desperately wanted was a spark, an indication that he could make something happen out of little. We wanted him to get the best out of this crowd and their limitations EVEN if the team lost.

In other words: We wanted him to show us that he can be relied upon to lead this team into the future. He did not.

That ain't gonna happen if he takes FOREVER to release and only do so when the receiver arrived at the spot by which time the DB is ALL OVER them.

The guy has the physical skills. But his mechanics and, most importantly, his decision-making ability shows a very limited development. He limited the amount of grave mistakes and he stopped fumbling every time he was touched by an opponent. Those "virtues" ain't gonna be enough to win the NFL East next year.

REGARDLESS of our differences among our expectations and different PERIODS of grace which many of us wish to give him, the question remains:

WHERE IS THE FREAKING PLAN B !!!???

3. If the darn WCO system is SO complex, they should not implement it in a team that has never played it IF they are not willing to invest at least three years.

Do you REALLY think that in the Snyder frame of mind he is willing to give Zorn three years of losing seasons as his own period for the benefit of the doubt??? Dream on.

Next year is a make or break season for Zorn in this town. The problem with YOUIR almost "endless give JC all the time he needs" approach is that things can actually get WORSE.

We may end up not only losing a "promising" QB. We may end up losing a HC and acquiring YET a fourth offense in this team at the end of next season. Want that?

SkinsJock wrote:Of those 6 wins we were not the better team when compared with at least 3 of the teams we 'beat'.

Which three teams?
I know you aren't including the Pies and the Smeagols.

I think we were better than all six we beat, and the Rams too. We should have been 8-1 after the second Pies game.

Redskin in Canada wrote:Nice position to be for the second most expensive franchise in sports ...

2nd most expensive franchise in the NFL. 3rd in sports (after Manchester United and then the Cowboys).

RiC wrote:Next year is a make or break season for Zorn in this town. The problem with YOUIR almost "endless give JC all the time he needs" approach is that things can actually get WORSE.

I never said anything close to endlessly giving JC all the time he needs, nor have I seen anyone else say that either.

RiC wrote:We KNOW about those. I am not asking for a Superbowl. I said as much at the beginning of last season. This WAS NOT a SB Team.

Right, and many here agree with that. Most here predicted an 8-8 or a 9-7 season knowing there was a new system coming to town and JC was getting turned around again. Well, we got what most expected.

RiC wrote:Do you REALLY think that in the Snyder frame of mind he is willing to give Zorn three years of losing seasons as his own period for the benefit of the doubt??? Dream on.

Next year is a make or break season for Zorn in this town. The problem with YOUIR almost "endless give JC all the time he needs" approach is that things can actually get WORSE.

I would hope this is a make or break season for JC, not Zorn. He's a good coach and Snyder would be an idiot to not give him at least 3 years. But Zorn knows QB's and I trust his judgment. You could argue that was a big part of why he was brought to DC. By the way, Gibbs also knows QB's.

RiC wrote:If the darn WCO system is SO complex, they should not implement it in a team that has never played it IF they are not willing to invest at least three years.

Come on, man. It's not that the WCO is sooooo complex. The point is that it's a drastically different system from what's been run in DC for years, and is, terminology and scheme wise, drastically different from Saunders' 700 page system specifically. We knew for years the defense was pretty good and it was the offense that needed remedy. So many here complained that Gibbs' system was outdated and a more modern offense was needed. So I agree with Snyder for bringing in a modern and proven offense. Zorn may have some innovated additions and twists to the offense which were appealing to Snyder and Cerrato. It just takes some time to implement it. But I support the choice they made and I'd hope they stick with it, as you've said, for at LEAST 3 years.

RiC wrote:What you fail to acknowledge is that what most of us desperately wanted was a spark, an indication that he could make something happen out of little. We wanted him to get the best out of this crowd and their limitations EVEN if the team lost.

In other words: We wanted him to show us that he can be relied upon to lead this team into the future. He did not.

I agree with that... to some degree. I've posted here many times that I like the passion and fire I see from Colt, and Colt seems to inspire those around him. I wish JC had a bit more of that. But JC is known for being very level-headed and has been complimented for that from every coach he's had. JC doesn't get too high and doesn't get too low or sulk after a bad play, important traits for a QB to have. But I do like Colt's personality.

Early on in 2008, I think JC did provide a spark and is a respected leader on the team. Asking him to win it on his own is a bit of a stretch. Cassel has a pretty good team around him and an outstanding coach, not really a fair comparison.

But we'll see what happens. Again, as I've said many, many times, Zorn knows how to evaluate QB's, and if Zorn deems JC the best option on the team, then I fully support that. If at some point Zorn thinks JC isn't cutting it and a change is needed, then I'm all for that. I'm for stability and continuity, period.

I'm all for stability and continuity too and as soon as Zorn realizes that Campbell does not have it we need to both keep Campbell here and at the same time bring in someone else to groom for our future.

We have Brennan and he will get some help in the coming months (as Campbell is going to get the most help) but we also need someone else to groom because there is no doubt in my mind that while both Gibbs and (I presume) Zorn think that Campbell is a decent QB that is apparently all he is going to be from what we have seen.

In the coming months we are going to give Campbell a lot of opportunity here because we have to but the reality is that he is not going to make it and while we have Brennan we do need to keep in mind that we may need another young QB and soon.

SkinsJock wrote:We have Brennan and he will get some help in the coming months (as Campbell is going to get the most help) but we also need someone else to groom because there is no doubt in my mind that while both Gibbs and (I presume) Zorn think that Campbell is a decent QB that is apparently all he is going to be from what we have seen.

They said the same thing about Matt Hasselbeck in Green Bay and again for three years in Seattle. In his early years in Seattle, Hasselbeck battled for playing time with Trent Dilfer. Matt struggled early on, but after three years, Zorn turned him into a 3-time Pro Bowler and a QB that lead his team to the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

SkinsJock, I typically agree with most of your points, but not this one. I'm not saying JC is a lock for the HoF, but I don't believe the book is anywhere near complete on JC and I don't believe for a minute that we've seen all we're going to see from him. I think the kid still has great potential. Gibbs and Zorn liked him, and they are pretty good evaluators of QB talent. Other expert analysts (like Jaws, for example) have studied film on JC and think he's going to be pretty good as well. The whole story ain't written yet.

I think there's a very good chance he's going to be the starter going into next season, so why not give the kid some support? Not speaking directly to SkinsJock with this, but in general, I think it's just classic around here from the haters that JC gets no credit for any of the teams success in the first half of the season but gets all the credit for the teams failures in the second half of the season. Par for the course from some.

No way should he get the benefit of the doubt for the full next season if, he continues to not play well.

If he does well in the first half of the season that should buy him more time. If not I certainly do not see why we give him a pass.

Skins Freak, I hope you're right about this guy - I thought he would be a lot better because first of all Gibbs checked him out and brought him in. Then when Zorn came in i thought that he could help him out also but I was not that impressed after having the job handed to him and then having Portis look so good I thought that would help this kid develop but it has not happened.

Now you could be right but I am not sure he has what it takes to make the leap to be the big time QB we all thought. He just does not seem comfortable and he seems slow - now Gibbs and Zorn know a lot more about QBs than I do but this guy does not seem to have "IT".

I'll say it again, I hope you're right but I also hope we get someone else (other than Brennan) ready to go also. If Campbell does not look like a huge difference from what he was like last year we need to move on and quickly.

Now IF he does not make huge strides that will most likely mean that Campbell is still our best QB for the rest of 2009 but in my opinion if he stays after that it will be as a back-up.

Redskin in Canada wrote:1. I gave not one but two examples who had NOT PLAYED before. Jason Campbell had more experience as an NFL QB than Ryan and Cassell COMBINED at the beginning of the last season. Both of them outperformed him...

Those are valid points, brother. Yet for every Matt Ryan there seems to be an Eli Manning, a guy who takes a few years to really get the hang of it and then takes off. I'm by no means trying to compare his career with JC's; merely pointing out that some if not the majority of NFL QB's take some time to grow into the position, some more than others.

I have some serious doubts as to whether or not he's THE guy for us, or any team for that matter. I think it would be a mistake to not give him one more full season before making that call, however. To back up that assertion I ask all of you who are screaming for his head to consider how you would feel if we cut him loose, and then he goes on to have a remarkable career with another team? Be honest now -

You all know how you'd feel about that, just as much as I do.

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:To back up that assertion I ask all of you who are screaming for his head to consider how you would feel if we cut him loose, and then he goes on to have a remarkable career with another team? Be honest now -

You all know how you'd feel about that, just as much as I do.

FAIR question and it certainly deserves a FAIR answer.

While I would love to see the guy develop into this franchise's QB for the future, I do not feel that this team can RELY and BET their future and the future of their HC on this happening.

Let me go a step further. EVEN if he does not develop, I am not asking that he be DUMPED. He could make a good and even inexpensive backup.

My position is different:

Given the large degree of uncertainty about not only the time of development but sufficient development itself of JC to be our FRANCHISE QB, it is IRRESPONSIBLE for the Front Office not to come with a RELIABLE Plan B in case another QB needs to start.

Even for injuries sake !!! We need somebody who can replace him and win!

Redskin in Canada wrote:...My position is different:

Given the large degree of uncertainty about not only the time of development but sufficient development itself of JC to be our FRANCHISE QB, it is IRRESPONSIBLE for the Front Office not to come with a RELIABLE Plan B in case another QB needs to start...

Well, there's still Todd Collins, though he's certainly not any long-term option. I myself am not at all sold on Colt Brennan as this franchise's savior, or even it's next starting QB. I give him guts, heart, moxie, etc. etc. -- but that doesn't guarantee that the kid can throw the deep out and not have it returned for 6.

I've read it before and I agree wholeheartedly: if there was somehow a way to transplant Colt's attitude into JC's body, look out. That guy would be a top-of-the-line keeper, no doubt about it.

When you see a thread like this you know the season is doomed

Manchester_Redskin wrote:When you see a thread like this you know the season is doomed

Speaking as a "homer" - this season is only 'doomed' if we do not use it and the next to get this team in shape - we have seen what happens when we put together a group of players to try and be successful the next season and it does not work. Cerrato and his crew need to identify who they can build around and who they will have here in 2011 and get that started now.

If we had not given up the 2 picks for Taylor we would have 6 picks and could have conceivably added some young free agents - Now we need a small miracle from Cerrato and his crew AND we need 2 and possibly all 3 top picks from the last draft to make huge progress these next 6 months.

To be successful in today's NFL you need a combination of experienced players and young players plus a constant supply of draft choices to provide both depth and speed. The coaches have to provide the guidance.

You do not get very far with an old team - that may have worked in the "old days" it does not work today. This is a very fast game and a long season and older guys are mainly just playing for the dollars. That is why so many older players have wanted to come here - for the payday and not the ring.

Most all young NFL players are trying to get established and are playing to get the recognition tthat will get them the dollars that are paid to the better players - most all 'old' players are just playing for the dollars.

Campbell is the best option we have in my opinion and will most likely be that for this next season - I just do not think that he is going to become the type of QB that Gibbs thought he was capable of. I think that he's very lucky that he has Zorn who really needs him to be better and who is regarded as a QB's coach BUT he just does not seem (to me) to be 'special' and we need Brennan and someone else to get ready to be our next QB. This is arguably the most critical position - you really have very little chance at being a really good NFL team without a very good QB and Campbell is just not that good.

This season is not 'doomed' if it is used to build the team correctly

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:if there was somehow a way to transplant Colt's attitude into JC's body

But what becomes of the JC attitude in Colt's body? Can we trade that guy to Dallas?

Redskin in Canada wrote:Given the large degree of uncertainty about not only the time of development but sufficient development itself of JC to be our FRANCHISE QB, it is IRRESPONSIBLE for the Front Office not to come with a RELIABLE Plan B in case another QB needs to start.

Even for injuries sake !!! We need somebody who can replace him and win!

That's fair. But how do you know they DON'T have a plan B?

Zorn is the coach and it's his system. They've also studied the tape on JC and know specifically what is his fault and what isn't. So if they stay with JC, that tells me they know it isn't all his fault and think the kid has potential.

Further, they see JC, Colt and Todd practice together every day. They drafted Colt for a reason, to groom for the future and to be a back-up for JC, with the "potential" of earning the starting role. So again, with the coaches seeing these guys everyday, how do you know they don't have a plan B or they don't think Colt can be a legitimate #2 and potentially the starter? Drafting a QB last year tells me they were looking for plan B.

There's no doubt a QB will be brought in this offseason, they always have a minimum of 4 QB's in camp. But I guess the question is what quality of QB will they bring in. Will it be a vet like Leftwich, an undrafted rookie like Sam Hollenbach or a journeyman like Derek Devine?

If it's a free agent vet with years of experience that only qualifies as a "plan B", why doesn't Collins fit that bill? They've got a decent starter in JC, a solid and seasoned vet in Collins and a 2nd year draft choice they're currently grooming.

SkinsFreak wrote:That's fair. But how do you know they DON'T have a plan B?

As they say in the beautiful State of Missouri: SHOW ME !!!

SkinsFreak wrote:If it's a free agent vet with years of experience that only qualifies as a "plan B", why doesn't Collins fit that bill? They've got a decent starter in JC, a solid and seasoned vet in Collins and a 2nd year draft choice they're currently grooming.

So, your suggestion is that we already have a Plan B for a FRANCHISE QB if JC does not work, Is that it? Why not these two? Is that it?

Well, if betting on JC is seemed as a high risk proposition by most of us, What are the Cinderella chances that a QB like Collins an older player who has NEVER played in the WCO offense and does not have the physical skills of JC can become our FUTURE? You see THIS is what worries the hell out of most of us.

The old and tired adage, "HC knows best" is as tired and old as the original "father lnows best" TV series. We know from experience how that has worked out in the Snyder tenure.

And then, Colt MIGHT work out. He MIGHT. I do ot know about you guys but I NEVER gamble. And in the remote chance that I did, I would not play more money on a riskier hand than the one I already have.

It is enough of a bet to gamble on JC to begin to bet that Colt is going to work out fine. WE NEED to know and if Colt is Plan B, he needs a hell of alot more practice with the First Team, not the third string QB in the second team, in order to accelerate his development.

It is about CHOICES. You cannot have it all expecting that your first hopeful chance is going to work out.

You see, it is a FAIR question: WHERE IS THE FREAKING (and reliable) PLAN B !!!???

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:Well, there's still Todd Collins, though he's certainly not any long-term option. I myself am not at all sold on Colt Brennan as this franchise's savior, or even it's next starting QB. I give him guts, heart, moxie, etc. etc. -- but that doesn't guarantee that the kid can throw the deep out and not have it returned for 6.

There is no Plan B.

Thank you very much. I rest my case.

And we are the Third (thanks Pulp) most expensive franchise in the WHOLE of sports ???

Is this the way to run a corporation of THIS caliber???

Redskin in Canada wrote:

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:Well, there's still Todd Collins, though he's certainly not any long-term option. I myself am not at all sold on Colt Brennan as this franchise's savior, or even it's next starting QB. I give him guts, heart, moxie, etc. etc. -- but that doesn't guarantee that the kid can throw the deep out and not have it returned for 6.

There is no Plan B.

Thank you very much. I rest my case.

And we are the Third (thanks Pulp) most expensive franchise in the WHOLE of sports ???

Is this the way to run a corporation of THIS caliber???

When your principle goal is making money above everything else you get these types of problems, but that requieres a whole different thread.

Im pretty sure this offseason the team will let Collins go and bring in a vet that is acquainted with Zorn.

That should be Plan B.

Redskin in Canada wrote:And then, Colt MIGHT work out. He MIGHT. I do ot know about you guys but I NEVER gamble. And in the remote chance that I did, I would not play more money on a riskier hand than the one I already have.

But IF you were going to make that bet, wouldn't you at least like to look at your cards?

Deadskins wrote:But what becomes of the JC attitude in Colt's body? Can we trade that guy to Dallas?

Actually, JSP, I was thinking of getting a pot going so we could PAY the CowPukes to take that other guy...

Redskin in Canada wrote:There is no Plan B.

Thank you very much. I rest my case.

And we are the Third (thanks Pulp) most expensive franchise in the WHOLE of sports ???

Is this the way to run a corporation of THIS caliber???

Let me rephrase: there is no Plan B, as you put it, because that is a strategy planned and based on the premise that JC will fail. We DO have backup QB's, however -- just like all the other teams do. Today, if we were to scroll through each individual team and it's current signal-caller situation, I would be very surprised if more than 2 or 3 have anything like a "Plan B." Nor should they.

A contingency like that takes time to prepare, time to develop, and time out of both the staff and the featured players' practice schedules. Time is a scarce and valuable commodity once OTA's and TC come around. It doesn't make sense to divide that time, and also divide attention/concentration/preparation, in order to have some sort of protocol with which to bench JC. That's a lot like a self-fulfilling prophecy as I see it. By having the plan you in effect create the reason for the plan in the first place.

The coaching staff and Zorn should work exclusively with JC, just as they did last year, and switch Collins and Brennan around so the kid can see the backup reps. They need to bank on JC being what they believe he can be, that is a top-tier QB in this league. By living or dying with him through this next season (with no distractions like neverending QB-controversy rumors), they can see where they finished up the season and have a clear-cut answer, yea or nay. I can't see how anyone would argue that the approach I described is a less efficient, less sound course of action than any scenarios that have JC beginning the season as the starter, only to have the rug yanked out from under him at some point thereafter.

At that point what you have is twice as hard to deal with. Not only have you wasted all of your preseason time with a guy who isn't going to play through the year, but you've also now got to try to quickly get this other person up to speed midway through the season. Doing things like that on the fly hardly ever turns out well, in any endeavor.

To sum up, in answer to your last post -- no, there is no Plan B.
And if there is a god in heaven, there won't be this year, or the next...or the one after that.

Pick your horses before the race and ride 'em to the finish line, brother. Ya gotta dance with what brung ya.

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:There is no Plan B.

Thank you very much. I rest my case.

And we are the Third (thanks Pulp) most expensive franchise in the WHOLE of sports ???

Is this the way to run a corporation of THIS caliber???

Let me rephrase: there is no Plan B, as you put it, because that is a strategy planned and based on the premise that JC will fail. We DO have backup QB's, however -- just like all the other teams do. Today, if we were to scroll through each individual team and it's current signal-caller situation, I would be very surprised if more than 2 or 3 have anything like a "Plan B." Nor should they.

A contingency like that takes time to prepare, time to develop, and time out of both the staff and the featured players' practice schedules. Time is a scarce and valuable commodity once OTA's and TC come around. It doesn't make sense to divide that time, and also divide attention/concentration/preparation, in order to have some sort of protocol with which to bench JC. That's a lot like a self-fulfilling prophecy as I see it. By having the plan you in effect create the reason for the plan in the first place.

The coaching staff and Zorn should work exclusively with JC, just as they did last year, and switch Collins and Brennan around so the kid can see the backup reps. They need to bank on JC being what they believe he can be, that is a top-tier QB in this league. By living or dying with him through this next season (with no distractions like neverending QB-controversy rumors), they can see where they finished up the season and have a clear-cut answer, yea or nay. I can't see how anyone would argue that the approach I described is a less efficient, less sound course of action than any scenarios that have JC beginning the season as the starter, only to have the rug yanked out from under him at some point thereafter.

At that point what you have is twice as hard to deal with. Not only have you wasted all of your preseason time with a guy who isn't going to play through the year, but you've also now got to try to quickly get this other person up to speed midway through the season. Doing things like that on the fly hardly ever turns out well, in any endeavor.

To sum up, in answer to your last post -- no, there is no Plan B.
And if there is a god in heaven, there won't be this year, or the next...or the one after that.

Pick your horses before the race and ride 'em to the finish line, brother. Ya gotta dance with what brung ya.

Redskin in Canada wrote:The old and tired adage, "HC knows best" is as tired and old as the original "father lnows best" TV series. We know from experience how that has worked out in the Snyder tenure.

Really? So because of Snyder, our head coach is in no position to have the best vantage point? Oh... okay. Let me get this straight... because Snyder was the one who hired a HoF coach in Gibbs and a former NFL quarterback/QB coach in Zorn... since Snyder did the hiring, that means the coaches expertise were nullified. Got it.

Other than the Patriots, who suddenly found out this past year that Cassel was pretty good and he had some success, most likely due to the playoff and championship level team and coaching staff already in place around him, name the NFL teams that have multiple studs at QB.