The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:

VRIEL1 wrote:I think you have to go after either Gross or Haynesworth. We need either a top OL to solidify our RT side or a top DT who can collapse a pocket. I would not do both. Do one and look to fill the other position from the draft at #13. and to be honest as much as I would rather have Haynesworth (cause I don't see a down side to him) it would be better to get a seasoned RT to help protect JC. We can pick up a top DT in the draft and train him quickly to just collapse a pocket.

I'm sorry I just don't feel the picking a LB or DE at #13 is a necessity. We brought in 3 DE's last year and couldn't get a decent pass rush. I think we need to try a DT.

Downsides to Haynesworth are well known; he wants franchise QB money (10 million a year); and he's incredibly injury prone. Over the past 6 seasons he has played in an average of 77% of games...less than either Shawn Springs or Cornelius Griffin. The last time he played in 16 games was his rookie season.

It's a double shot. Paying huge, salary cap busting money for a part time player. When he's healthy, he's great...but he's always injured. And I can't imagine he'd get magically healthier as he ages.

I'm of the belief that even if he were to play all 16 games every year for the next 5, this would still be a bad signing. That's just way too much money to commit to one player for a team that has both multiple needs and very little in the way of cap space.

maybe the team needs to approach the season this year as rebuilding........get rid of the old high cap guys and bring in new.......I think that with the rebuild approach in mind the team could probably overachieve (ie win more games) instead of going into the season with the added pressure of high expectations when really we dont have the talent to compete for the title and are handcuffed by our cap.

Californiaskin wrote:Yep blow it up starting with Kendall, Jansen, Randy Thomas, El, griffin, washington, Collins Jason fricken Taylor, Springs, fabini

Trade cooley for a #2 OR 3


im with you monk

Trading one of the best TE's in football for a second or third round draft pick is insane. You started well, but blew the last call.

Below is the post that laid out cap implications. It's great info. Let's assume they are good data. 2 things:

1) All the cap hits just last one year. Massive cap room results in 1 year.

2) We have yet to discuss compensatory picks.

"Under the NFL's collective bargaining agreement, teams that lose more or better "compensatory" free agents than they acquire in a year are eligible to receive compensatory draft choices. No team can receive more than four."

Now although it looks painful (and may be) if we let go of say Jansen, Portis, Taylor, and Washington we save a net of 3 million immediately and are well on our way to 4 compensatory picks as well as a quick extra 23 million in cap space a year down the road. Three of those players (Jansen, Taylor, Washington) figure to not really help us next year (based on age and the last couple of years) and Portis (already locker room poison?) can be replaced. He's not Jim Brown and even Brown was probably replaceable to a certain extent by Bobby Mitchell (ask Welch).

I say get rid of these guys and a few more (Springs and Daniels?) and get

1) 13 million of immediate relief

2) 30 million in space in 1 year

3) 4 more draft picks

4) younger

We might even get better immediately and certainly will long term - especially if we finish the blow up in one more year.

ey is an example of what we want to do. Draft wisely and pay a homegrown star. He's a keeper.

We should mostly let the remaining linemen play out their contracts and draft replacements. My personal favorite for the #13 is Alex Mack, a center. Most mock drafts put him around #20 so a trade down while getting an extra pick along with Mack could be a possibility. He is generally thought of as a potential all-pro and many say "the best lineman in the draft, period." Check this out:

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2009_NFL_Draft/Alex_Mack.htm

DarthMonk

dad23hogjrs wrote:Blow it up?

Sure, here are some guys that would be a part of the "destruction"

ARE - moving him would increase our # against the cap 600k, we are already 3-4 M over, depending on where you get your info

Jansen - I've seen people coming for his head...great, that will cost you 2.78 million against the cap

Portis - YEAH, LETS GET CRAZY...crazy will cost you 7.7 M against the cap

Some other guys that not everyone is pointing pitch forks at, but would fit into blowing it up...

R. Thomas - costs you 4.5 M to move him; Moss - 464k against the cap to move; everyone on the "Trade Rogers" bandwagon - check this out - 1.43 M against the cap to pull that trigger

and my personal favorite:
"Trade cooley for a #2 OR 3" - that will cost you 8.1 M against the cap

We found a gem....so now you want to trade him so we can maybe do it again...but most likely not...makes sense.


You can't "Blow it Up" completely

why? because we laced the place with plutonium...


guys you can get rid of - more of a wittling

Springs - Saves 6M
Taylor - Saves 8.5M
M. Washington - Saves 4.5M
Griffin - Saves 3.62M
Rabach - Saves 2.35M
Daniels - Saves 2.3M

Sorry to say, everyone else costs you against the cap, or is worth more than what they save you against the cap.

Darthmonk, If that's possible then I'm for it. Not only do we get rid of high priced players we get a few extra picks in order to get younger.

My only concern is the fact that by cutting or letting Portis go who will be our next star RB? Betts is not a #1 RB. Rock is no better. We let my favorite go (Mason) who tore it up in preseason. So we would have to be looking at a decent RB to replace Portis from the draft or non drafted players.

First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

I am not in favor of "blowing it up" but I do hope that we make a major effort to rebuild around the players that we feel will provide a basis for a team that in 2 to 3 years can help this team continue down the path of adding younger players and coaching them to form a great team.





It is amazing that some fans here can look at our team and think about not having a good player (who is here and helping the team) and then in the same post be thinking what would we do without him Give me a break! - let the guys that have some idea of what is going on in the NFL (and there are many here at THN) bring suggestions to us that we can consider - there are a lot of fans here who remind me of that old saying "you do not know how little some fans know about anything until they show you"

Then again, I must admit that a lot of posters here show how lucky we are to have so many posters (at THN) who do know a thing or two about what is going on

"2) We have yet to discuss compensatory picks." - DarthMonk

We got the highest compensatory pick for Dockery possible because he got top dollar at his position. It was after the regularly scheduled third round (i.e. actually the beginning of the 4th depending on how you look at it).

None of the guys on the list would get top dollar at their position, so we are talking 5's, 6's, 7's if we get them. (one of the more informed guys on the rules can help here, I am not sure if you get them if you release the player...might only be if he leaves via his choice in free agency)

If you are willing to take the cap hit on Portis, and I am NOT saying we should, might be best suited to see if a RB goes down in camp for someone else and they would be willing to trade a pick...
....though you may not get a 2nd for him, I mean, who gives up 2nd round picks for aging stars due to injuries in camp....that would be silly.

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

Well of course no team could really meet that criteria, there have been maybe one or two teams in history that did something even close to that. I've been presuming that 'blowing it up' means replacing more starters than average by some margin. What Schotty did when he came in fits that category. IF we were to cut the players that are being discussed in this thread, I think we'd fit that criteria.

Irn-Bru wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

Well of course no team could really meet that criteria, there have been maybe one or two teams in history that did something even close to that. I've been presuming that 'blowing it up' means replacing more starters than average by some margin. What Schotty did when he came in fits that category. IF we were to cut the players that are being discussed in this thread, I think we'd fit that criteria.

I got close

dad23hogjrs wrote:"2) We have yet to discuss compensatory picks." - DarthMonk

We got the highest compensatory pick for Dockery possible because he got top dollar at his position. It was after the regularly scheduled third round (i.e. actually the beginning of the 4th depending on how you look at it).

None of the guys on the list would get top dollar at their position, so we are talking 5's, 6's, 7's if we get them. (one of the more informed guys on the rules can help here, I am not sure if you get them if you release the player...might only be if he leaves via his choice in free agency)

If you are willing to take the cap hit on Portis, and I am NOT saying we should, might be best suited to see if a RB goes down in camp for someone else and they would be willing to trade a pick...
....though you may not get a 2nd for him, I mean, who gives up 2nd round picks for aging stars due to injuries in camp....that would be silly.

I may be wrong, but I don't think you get awarded a comp pick for a guy you cut under contract, only for guys who are Free Agents because their contracts naturally expired.

1niksder wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess

Well of course no team could really meet that criteria, there have been maybe one or two teams in history that did something even close to that. I've been presuming that 'blowing it up' means replacing more starters than average by some margin. What Schotty did when he came in fits that category. IF we were to cut the players that are being discussed in this thread, I think we'd fit that criteria.

I got close

I understand the point you are both making and while I personally don't think of a 'plan' like this as "blowing it up" per se I consider the moves and cuts as suggested by 1niksder as along the lines of what I would like to see over the next 2 years - to me, "blowing it up" would indicate trying to get this done this year


But, yes! That is basically what I would like the team to try and do over the next 2 years - we need to get younger and deeper.

I also agree that the only real big signing this year should be Hall - hopefully some young guys can be found to come in and help the team - Cerrato's team have got to get lucky with their free agents at some point



that link provided by 1niksder should be required reading at Redskins Park IMHO

1niksder wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

Well of course no team could really meet that criteria, there have been maybe one or two teams in history that did something even close to that. I've been presuming that 'blowing it up' means replacing more starters than average by some margin. What Schotty did when he came in fits that category. IF we were to cut the players that are being discussed in this thread, I think we'd fit that criteria.

I got close

Excellent article. If only we could get Vinny and Danny to buy into your plan.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

1niksder wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

Well of course no team could really meet that criteria, there have been maybe one or two teams in history that did something even close to that. I've been presuming that 'blowing it up' means replacing more starters than average by some margin. What Schotty did when he came in fits that category. IF we were to cut the players that are being discussed in this thread, I think we'd fit that criteria.

I got close

Excellent article. If only we could get Vinny and Danny to buy into your plan.

1nik for GM!

Personally I don't like that plan. I like parts.


Sure we need to get younger. And the way to do that is little by little. Not by blowing up the team and having almost all new guys in two years.


This team has a bond. And this team is a real "team". They play for each other.

If you guys take anything from the SB. Please take the fact that the best "Team" won. The team with the "Star WRs" did not. That’s because it’s not about Stars. The Steelers play for each other.

There is so much talk about grooming rookies on here, and I agree with that. But you can't groom them, when the old guys are gone.

James Harrison, (released by the Steelers how many time? Like 4 times) did not get to his skill level by them just drafting him and making him the starter. He learned from the guy in front of him.

If you do Blow up the team. Possibly Having some of these younger guys(like ey and Laron) getting pist at the team because their buddy got canned for no good reason(no good reason when they are buddy's anyway). So, then your saying you have rookies come in, being only taught by coaches, and some "young vets" who still can't believe the Danny let his buddies go.

That doesn’t create a good team spirit. It could take 4-5 years to get those guys to have anywhere close to the type of bond our guys have now. By then Zorn will be out the door, if he’s not already gone, and those guys will be old, time to blow it up again.

You can’t start fresh with young guys, you have to groom them. IMO. Let them work for a starting position. Getting younger will happen on its own in time as you do this.

You can have all the young guys with all the talent in the world, and you still would not win a SB, if they are not a Team. Just ask Dallas.

I'd love to blow it up. It would hurt more than it would help. There are a lot of coaches and GMs that would never touch this team because we can stick to a plan for more than a season or two. The dead cap would burn us heavily if we cut as many players as some suggest. If you want to play with nothing but rookies, undrafted rookies, and lose most of the season then I could see that. I could actually go for that. But . . . . who else would be able to stomach a 4-12 season?

SkinsJock wrote:First of all, let me clarify that I presume "blowing a team up" is to basically get rid of everybody, good or bad and start from scratch. I am not sure that is a possibility, but, anything can happen I guess Cut everyone, they're all busts!

Agreed. That was my interpretation of it too.

I still firmly believe that the majority of our dramatic changes should happen on the offensive side of the ball.

I don't believe the much maligned defensive line is in need of any changes.

I don't think it will matter who they select, or pick-up in FA, the results will be the same. I think the D-line's problem is more about defensive scheme than an inability to sack the QB.

I think their priority is (as it was under Williams) containment moreso than pressure. Keep the QB in front of you, stop the run, disrupt the pass by getting your hands up, watch for the screen, etc.

I'd be more inclined to think otherwise, but we played great against the run, and that starts with the D-line.

I don't believe the much maligned defensive line is in need of any changes.

Seriously?? Our defensive line is terrible. Our pass rush was non-existent this season and we don't have a single DT on our roster that can generate a push up the middle. OL and DL both need a serious overhaul.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I don't believe the much maligned defensive line is in need of any changes.

Seriously?? Our defensive line is terrible. Our pass rush was non-existent this season and we don't have a single DT on our roster that can generate a push up the middle. OL and DL both need a serious overhaul.

Yeah, seriously.

It's no use arguing the point because even if they put stud, pro-bowl DTs in there, you'll get the same result, and then the shift will be to how much Cerrato sucks because he shouldn't have wasted money on those guys.

The fourth ranked defense was 7th against the pass, and 8th against the run. Not the kind of stats you would expect from a defensive line that "sucks".

Conversely, the 19th ranked offense was 23rd in passing due largely to the fact that they couldn't stop the rush...

Where do you think we should spend the most money?

Getting more sacks so we can move up from the fourth ranked defense to the third, or protecting the QB so we might break into the top 10 on offense?

I don't know about you, but I'd like to see our offense get more touchdowns (and win more games because we scored more than 10 points), than see more sacks on the opponents QB (and still watch us lose because we couldn't score more than 10 points).

The defense is fine statistically but the fact is that we cannot seem to stop the other team when you have to, late in the game. I just feel we do need some help on the defensive line, not much, but a decent defense is able to get pressure from the inside and the perimeter, we cannot seem top do that consistently.

I do agree we have more needs on offense but both lines need attention and overall this team needs to get younger and develop our own talent.

We especially do not need to spend any serious money on anyone this season except to sign Hall - NOBODY!

Bob 0119 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

I don't believe the much maligned defensive line is in need of any changes.

Seriously?? Our defensive line is terrible. Our pass rush was non-existent this season and we don't have a single DT on our roster that can generate a push up the middle. OL and DL both need a serious overhaul.

Yeah, seriously.

It's no use arguing the point because even if they put stud, pro-bowl DTs in there, you'll get the same result, and then the shift will be to how much Cerrato sucks because he shouldn't have wasted money on those guys.

The fourth ranked defense was 7th against the pass, and 8th against the run. Not the kind of stats you would expect from a defensive line that "sucks".

Conversely, the 19th ranked offense was 23rd in passing due largely to the fact that they couldn't stop the rush...

Where do you think we should spend the most money?

Getting more sacks so we can move up from the fourth ranked defense to the third, or protecting the QB so we might break into the top 10 on offense?

I don't know about you, but I'd like to see our offense get more touchdowns (and win more games because we scored more than 10 points), than see more sacks on the opponents QB (and still watch us lose because we couldn't score more than 10 points).

First of all, nowhere in my post did I say that we don't need to improve the offensive line. We certainly do. Despite the ineptness of our FO, a team should be able to improve more than one area of a team in an off-season so it doesn't have to be an either/or type situation. Secondly, imo a good football team is built from the lines and both of our lines are not very good right now. Defensively we get no pressure on the qb which hurts us late in games and has a significant impact on our lack of turnovers. Like SkinsJock correctly pointed out, our defense had trouble stopping people late in games and I think that that is directly related to our poor line play.

You can also point to all the statistics that you want, but when I think of elite NFL defenses I certainly don't think of ours. I think of the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans, aggressive teams that get after the qb and force turnovers. We are not at that level and wont be until we can generate a consistent pass rush.

CanesSkins26 wrote:You can also point to all the statistics that you want, but when I think of elite NFL defenses I certainly don't think of ours. I think of the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans, aggressive teams that get after the qb and force turnovers. We are not at that level and wont be until we can generate a consistent pass rush.

Well, the Steelers and Ravens ranked 1st and 2nd respectfully in total defense. The Titans ranked 7th, three spots lower than the 4th ranked Skins. Just because your "favorite" ( ) team doesn't come to your mind when thinking of elite defenses, the numbers prove otherwise and can't be discounted.

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:You can also point to all the statistics that you want, but when I think of elite NFL defenses I certainly don't think of ours. I think of the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans, aggressive teams that get after the qb and force turnovers. We are not at that level and wont be until we can generate a consistent pass rush.

Well, the Steelers and Ravens ranked 1st and 2nd respectfully in total defense. The Titans ranked 7th, three spots lower than the 4th ranked Skins. Just because your "favorite" ( ) team doesn't come to your mind when thinking of elite defenses, the numbers prove otherwise and can't be discounted.

So do you think that the Skins had a better defense than Tennessee this past season?

Bob 0119 wrote:I think the D-line's problem is more about defensive scheme than an inability to sack the QB.

I think their priority is (as it was under Williams) containment moreso than pressure. Keep the QB in front of you, stop the run, disrupt the pass by getting your hands up, watch for the screen, etc.

Bob, you are correct... and it's actually refreshing to see when someone uses logic and facts to support an argument and perspective.

Several players and coaches spoke specifically about this a few months ago and I personally posted an article about it with direct quotes from players. The lack of a pass rush is mostly by design and was confirmed in the article posted on Redskins.com. Containment was the paramount concern and strategy employed by both Williams and Blache.

Now, I agree that we could use a stud DT in the mix. I would also agree that our d-line isn't as bad as some would assert. I actually believe the scheme will change somewhat this coming year and more emphasis will be placed on a better pass rush. Blache spoke of this recently and said a better pass rush in the future would help with creating turnovers, an area of weakness from this 4th ranked defense.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:You can also point to all the statistics that you want, but when I think of elite NFL defenses I certainly don't think of ours. I think of the Steelers, Ravens, and Titans, aggressive teams that get after the qb and force turnovers. We are not at that level and wont be until we can generate a consistent pass rush.

Well, the Steelers and Ravens ranked 1st and 2nd respectfully in total defense. The Titans ranked 7th, three spots lower than the 4th ranked Skins. Just because your "favorite" ( ) team doesn't come to your mind when thinking of elite defenses, the numbers prove otherwise and can't be discounted.

So do you think that the Skins had a better defense than Tennessee this past season?

I do.

Me, too...in coverage. Up front, not so much. Tennessee was never right after the Jets (our farm team) whupped 'em.
What they had after that was a pretty good offense, and a bunch of me-first guys on defense.
I wonder...do they regret stomping that Terrible Towel after the last rematch with the Steelers?