The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:It is true that somebody without moral authority is NOT the most qualified person to object against the competence of anybody else.

*waves finger...

This is simply a defense mechanism for delusional fans to ignore the facts. Sure, JLC is a dbag ok fine but that doens't make what he's saying not true. But delusional fans don't want to hear that.

OR

There actually ARE people who can disassociate the message from the writing.

There is a difference. I dislike and discount JLC's writing simply because the guy has an agenda, and is willing to write whatever he wants to fit that agenda. Even if it completely disregards, and in some cases, directly contradicts what he's written previously. It's a complete failure from the standpoint that JLC is supposed to be an objective, professional journalist. It clearly reveals he's anything but professional. And that bugs the hell out of me, because I expect more from the Washington Post, one of the most prestigious newspapers in the world. Maybe my standards are out of whack, and I should just not acknowledge when a "professional" writer provides substandard work product.

As for the Snyder/Cerrato FO issue...well basically, I embrace reality here. We don't have a great or even good FO (we also don't have the worst front office, but that's besides the point). We all know what it takes to get a better FO; sign a good GM, and get the hell out of his way while he rebuilds the team.

Really, the problem with the Redskins is lack of patience: (1) Snyder isn't patient enough for rebuilding; and (2) the fans are certainly not patient enough for a few years of rebuilding. Both Snyder and the fans are stuck in a perpetual WIN NOW state. I mean hell...a rookie HC just had an 8-8 season, inheriting a team built for a different style of play (smash-mouth versus WCO). In most other places in the nation, that'd be a fine year. Most places would recognize it takes most head coachs a few years to get the people they need to run their team, the way they see it, in place. Not here in DC, though. People on the call-in shows and on this board are saying our draft class was a bust...as if you can really evaluate a draft class after only one year (especially receivers, who historically do not contribute their first year with a team). I mean hell, people were complaining that Thomas and Kelly were busts after only a few games into the regular season. Multiple posters here are saying we should sign half of the big name free agents this year, as if we're only a few guys from the Superbowl. There is no patience here, from management to fans. It's utterly ridiculous.

With respect to how it changes, specifically regarding Snyder and our front office, there's this thing called reality. Snyder isn't going anywhere, and until he decides to change the way he runs our organization (or provide more feedback and transparency into how the organization is actually run, because all of us have nothing but speculation to deal with...and "accurate" reporting from people like JLC), our FO remains as flawed as it has ever been.

Reality - unless you want to jump ship, complaining about Snyder won't get you anywhere. Because Snyder isn't going anywhere. I don't particularly address a need to change our FO, because in my opinion, posting ad nauseum about it won't do a damn thing. I mean hell, RiC's been posting about Snyder, has a little cute quote about the FO in his sig...and all I can tell he's accomplished in the years he's posted the same thing...over and over and over again...is that he's probably on his way to a nice appointment with a hand surgeon for carpal tunnel syndrome.

PE that’s a great post. I do agree that Snyder isn’t going anywhere. I know I’ve been labeled a Snyder basher, hater…etc…Please understand that just because of the way the organization is run….I’m not one of the one’s that call him money grubbing just like I don’t buy into the “he spends money so he must care about the Redskins” crowd.
Call me crazy but I have the belief that he will change at some point, I just can’t understand why it’s taking so long?? You say we are not the worst...well you be hard pressed to find more worst organizations than us that you could count on two hand. The only one that comes to my mind is Oakland and the senile owner. I know everyone will point to Detroit but with the firing of Millen I think Ford is moving in the opposite direction from us. Dallas is on the road with us because Jones like Snyder thinks he can do it. Look at what he’s done to what Parcells built??
I also think we have a right to complain about the way the franchise is being run. I have patients, I understand it will take some time…but in this era of football is doesn’t take that long anymore. I will be the first to give him credit when he does so…

I mean hell...a rookie HC just had an 8-8 season, inheriting a team built for a different style of play (smash-mouth versus WCO). In most other places in the nation, that'd be a fine year. Most places would recognize it takes most head coachs a few years to get the people they need to run their team, the way they see it, in place.

I'm going to have to disagree with that somewhat. I'm all for rebuilding and taking the 2 to 3 years of bad football to potentially have a team that is competitive on an annual basis. However, there are plenty of examples of first year head coaches (without head coaching experience) turning things around quickly. Under Sparano the Dolphins went from 1-15 to 11-5 in his first year and won their division. The Ravens, under fist year coach John Harbaugh, went from 5-11 to 11-5 and are still in the playoffs, with a rookie qb leading his team. So it's not impossible for a team to turn things around quickly. However, you need to have a solid organizational structure in place. The Ravens have one of the best front offices in the league and their scouting and player development is top notch. Parcells has come in and made a huge impact on the Dolphins in just one season. Getting Pennington was a smart move and he hosed us on the Taylor trade (in the future Vinny should just not answer calls from Parcells). On the other hand we are stuck with Vinny. Snyder's best offseason move would have been firing Vinny and going out and getting Scott Pioli.

This team didn't simply go 8-8. You can't just look at the record and say that's acceptable, one must look at how we went 8-8 and you'll then see why people are a bit hostile.

PulpExposure wrote:Reality - unless you want to jump ship, complaining about Snyder won't get you anywhere. Because Snyder isn't going anywhere. I don't particularly address a need to change our FO, because in my opinion, posting ad nauseum about it won't do a damn thing. I mean hell, RiC's been posting about Snyder, has a little cute quote about the FO in his sig...and all I can tell he's accomplished in the years he's posted the same thing...over and over and over again...is that he's probably on his way to a nice appointment with a hand surgeon for carpal tunnel syndrome.

Well, I agree with most of your post. But I disagree with the part that addresses me and my posts. You took the time to explain your view, I will explain mine:

1) We both agree that Snyder is here and he will not go away any time soon.

2) I am not complaining to anybody. I am posting my views denouncing his poor leadership and terrible management style.

3) Does posting "ad nauseam" on the most fundamental issue that hampers the development of this franchise "DO" a damn thing?

Well , this is an interesting question that I have posed to myself many times, and it deserves an answer in this post. And the answer can be formulated in two ways:

a) It matters at least as much as discussing -ANY- other issue relating to the Skins. One can argue that our endless rants about any given part of or position in the Team does not -DO- anything for the team. In that case, -ANY- post is truly as meaningless as mine are on Snyder. If my posts -DO- nothing, they do nothing with a lot of other company in terms of posters and posts in this and many other boards. I am happy to post with a view to discuss and rationalise our consistent failure as a team rather than blame the individual scapegoat player or coach of a given year.

BUT

b) It does matter from another perspective. If any of you believe that the value of a voice is relevant and, even more importantly, the NUMBER of voices together can make a difference as a matter of PUBLIC OPINION on the way many organizations are run, well, then my voice together with the voices of an increasing number of fans and critics could -DO- something good.

Do not get me wrong, if Snyder was to sell the team for whatever profit and disappeared from the sight of all Skins fans, I would be the happiest man on earth. The man has done enough damage to my favourite team in sports long enough. But my demands are not even that high. I would simply be satisfied and probably equally happy if the collective criticism and mocking of his name leads him to provide good leadership at the top with a great GM and, as you correctly point out, "get the hell out of the way".

Dan Snyder is a stubborn public relations man. He understands the power of public criticism and humiliation. The -ONLY- way to change his stubbornness to remain in charge or to place incompetent people at the Front Office or both is by way of PUBLIC CRITICISM and HUMILIATION.

We do criticise our leaders in government -endlessly- when we perceive failures in them. What makes Dan Snyder immune to criticism if we cannot have any say to change them once him or any of our leaders are in office???

I can easily turn the table to many of you and ask:

Is it not condoning the actions of the owner not to denounce him as incompetent, greedy and a failure just because it is uncomfortable and it has taken so long to correct that it gets tired? If his actions are the root of the problem, why do you people are so much more preoccupied with smaller issues such as the statistics or a performance of single players?

Dan Snyder needs to be reminded at EVERY OPPORTUNITY that he is ultimately ACCOUNTABLE for the failure of this team during his ownership.

But do not take my word for it. Even if I do not post on this issue anymore, the media and other fans will not let it go away. Mark my words. It is a truly inconvenient truth.

Keep this post in context, because I am only trying to raise one objection here. . .

Chris Luva Luva wrote:*waves finger...

This is simply a defense mechanism for delusional fans to ignore the facts. Sure, JLC is a dbag ok fine but that doens't make what he's saying not true.

JLC says "both A and not A at the same time!", as in "the sky is blue and it's not blue!", so technically no matter what happens he's said something true (. . .as long as you ignore the false part). I think that's what PulpExposure was originally getting at.

But delusional fans don't want to hear that.

As someone who wants to see everyone come around to the darkside (;)), you of all people should hate what JLC does. It makes the 'delusional' fans shoot the messenger and ignore the message, as RiC says. There's nothing worse than having someone on your side who is clueless and has no idea why he's there.

I agree that Snyder IS the problem. . .but no matter how many ways JLC tries to write about it I have to wince. The guy is clueless.

I understand, I wasn't specifically talking about Pulp.

Redskin in Canada wrote:3) Does posting "ad nauseam" on the most fundamental issue that hampers the development of this franchise "DO" a damn thing?

Well , this is an interesting question that I have posed to myself many times, and it deserves an answer in this post. And the answer can be formulated in two ways:

I felt like I was reading Aquinas there for a moment.

"We must ask whether posting ad nauseam to an internet list is a species of fan-contributed positive change. This can be considered in two ways: (1) considered in itself, insofar as discussing the front office may be compared to any discussion of species under the genus Redskins, and (2) considered in relation to its genus of discussion and positive change. The first can be discussed in two ways. . ."

IB, you give my post way too much credit. But my biases are evident vis-a-vis philosophy and Redskins subjects.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:Reality - unless you want to jump ship, complaining about Snyder won't get you anywhere. Because Snyder isn't going anywhere. I don't particularly address a need to change our FO, because in my opinion, posting ad nauseum about it won't do a damn thing. I mean hell, RiC's been posting about Snyder, has a little cute quote about the FO in his sig...and all I can tell he's accomplished in the years he's posted the same thing...over and over and over again...is that he's probably on his way to a nice appointment with a hand surgeon for carpal tunnel syndrome.

Well, I agree with most of your post. But I disagree with the part that addresses me and my posts.

Sorry RiC, I really wasn't trying to pick on you. I was actually trying to say anything about you other than...you've been saying Snyder is a bum for years, and I'm really not sure it matters a damn. I mean we can complain about players, knowing that players will come and go. We can complain about coaches, knowing they too, will come and go.

To me, it appears there are 3 constants in Redskins fan's life. Death, Taxes, and Dan Snyder.

I also just don't think he gives a crap about public opinion (as long as he doesn't scare away the ticket holders...and let's face it, it'd be near impossible to do that in DC).

First, if he did, his innumerable contributions to charity would get shouted around a lot more (seriously, great read of an article, and you certainly get a different view of the dude after reading it). Second, he'd reconcile with the Washington Post, and he'd kiss up to the national sportsmedia more. He just stays silent and doesn't do interviews anymore...the exact opposite of someone who cared about his public persona.

Though I want to say that I really do admire your perseverance; in no way did I want you to perceive it as a personal slight, etc.

Unrelated: Reading that article again, it's from 2006. Get this:

I ask Snyder if he’s a Republican.

“Yes,” he says. He says he voted for George Bush. “But I am very angry with Bush. I don’t like what he’s doing in foreign affairs, and I think he’s messing up the economy.”

In 2006...when everyone thought the economy was going great, Snyder sees that it's fools gold. That's impressive.

PulpExposure wrote:In 2006...when everyone thought the economy was going great, Snyder sees that it's fools gold. That's impressive.

Awesome foresight on his part. The dude is awesome just not in the football arena.

That's goes to the heart of it PE why does a man that smart not get it when it comes to football!!!

DEHog wrote:That's goes to the heart of it PE why does a man that smart not get it when it comes to football!!!

Arrogance, DE. Pure arrogance.

I mean when you put it in perspective, which do you think is harder? Building a winning football team, or building a company from scratch like Snyder did, into a company worth a billion or so?

I know which one I think is harder, because I have a decent grasp of the world of business (and small business); and if it was that easy, a lot more of us would be rich...

I'm not sure if I was in his situation I wouldn't think the exact same thing. I mean, pretty much every CEO of a Fortune 500 company is a brilliant guy/girl. And (let's be honest) very, very few of the guys in the NFL, from coach to GM, etc., would be looked at as traditionally brilliant. Totally different kind of smarts, I get it, but...at the same time...

After all, Joey T said it best:

The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein.

Al, Joey. Al.

PulpExposure wrote:I mean when you put it in perspective, which do you think is harder? Building a winning football team, or building a company from scratch like Snyder did, into a company worth a billion or so?

Considering the FACTS for him, obviously the first.

But what does that have to do with this disaster?

You are hard-pressed to bring -one- positive article about this man and he runs one of the BIGGEST communications firms in Washington? Man, give me a break. EVERY team has charities.Many players and coaches have many charities. That is good. But the charities did not make them great owners, players or coaches. They are what the RECORD say they are.

I could care less to judge the man in his PRIVATE life. The ONLY part of his life relevant to me and all other fans is his role as the owner of the team and, in that capacity, he has provided terrible leadership and a very poor management style.

He will take credit for any succes. He should be held ACCOUNTABLE for the mediocrity too.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:I mean when you put it in perspective, which do you think is harder? Building a winning football team, or building a company from scratch like Snyder did, into a company worth a billion or so?

Considering the FACTS for him, obviously the first.

But what does that have to do with this disaster?

RiC, I was specifically addressing DEHog's question. Nothing more. That kind of arrogance is something you see commonplace in professional environments; for example, my dad is one of the founding partners in a large private medical practice (30 or so neurologists). All of the guys are physicians, neurologists or neurosurgeons, all very, very bright. Until about 10 years ago, they didn't have a business manager. Yeah, these guys thought that since they're smart enough to be able to diagnose and treat brain/spinal/peripheral nerve injuries and conditions...they're smart enough to run a 500 person business. They were utterly surprised once they hired a real business manager that their profits went up.

It's not just something limited to Snyder; that kind of arrogance touches a lot of people. Again, just limited to DE's question.

I have no problem counting Snyder accountable for the Redskins, and our current mediocrity. I do, however, want to say that when you look at things in perspective, the Redskins under Snyder haven't been a horrible mess, just not a consistent success. Look at the team after Gibbs left in 1992. THAT was a horrible mess, and it was only until Snyder bought the team we've been back to the playoffs. Yes, it could be better...but remember...it could be (and has been) much worse.

Redskin in Canada wrote:You are hard-pressed to bring -one- positive article about this man and he runs one of the BIGGEST communications firms in Washington?

A company that, IIRC, is heavily into junk mail and telemarketing? (Which, in 20/20 hindsight, fits into the unreality of all of this)

So some of the overbearing volume of crap that fills your mailbox and shows up as "anonymous" on your Caller ID is indrectly related to the overbearing decade of crap filled your TV screen on Sundays in the fall.

PulpExposure wrote:Yes, it could be better...but remember...it could be (and has been) much worse.

Yep, you are right. Unfortunately that position and the attitude that condones it will never get us at the top of the competitive NFC East, let alone a Superbowl.

Look at the recent changes in Front Offices and head coaching positions in the NFL. This business is at least as competitive, perhaps more, at THAT level than on the field.

By the way, I do not want Bruce Allen, just fired from Tampa, as our GM. But Danny will be tempted. He already asked him once and declined. So, it is not change for change sake. We need a GREAT GM.

Redskin in Canada wrote:We need a GREAT GM.

Yeah that'd be a great thing. Too bad there are only a very few great GMs in the NFL, and they all seem to be working for franchises that they are happy to work for...

Related to this subject: Spagnuolou, the Giants D coordinator, has just been hired by the Rams as headcoach.

The thing is the Redskisn offered him the job last year and he declined the offer. This is a slap to the face to Snyder and speaks volumes of how he and the organization is perceived.

Still more evidence that DS and Vinny are ruining this franchise.

El Mexican wrote:Related to this subject: Spagnuolou, the Giants D coordinator, has just been hired by the Rams as headcoach.

The thing is the Redskisn offered him the job last year and he declined the offer. This is a slap to the face to Snyder and speaks volumes of how he and the organization is perceived.

Still more evidence that DS and Vinny are ruining this franchise.

Wow, what a leap to conclusion...

That's not much of a leap at all...

It's already been said that Spags turned down the Redskins job because they were in such disarray.

Skinsfan55 wrote:That's not much of a leap at all...

It's already been said that Spags turned down the Redskins job because they were in such disarray.

Who said that?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:That's not much of a leap at all...

It's already been said that Spags turned down the Redskins job because they were in such disarray.

Who said that?

Does it really matter if some one said it or not?

In this case, actions speak louder than words.

El Mexican wrote:Related to this subject: Spagnuolou, the Giants D coordinator, has just been hired by the Rams as headcoach.

The thing is the Redskisn offered him the job last year and he declined the offer. This is a slap to the face to Snyder and speaks volumes of how he and the organization is perceived.

Still more evidence that DS and Vinny are ruining this franchise.

2 things here - we would not be a better team with Spagnuolo as our HC - not taking anything away from him, hopefully he has a great career BUT there is no way that you can convince me that we would be better off with him than Zorn - Zorn will show that he is one of the better coaches in the NFL, lets see how Spags goes in St Louis next season.

thankfully IF he was offered the job by Snyder, he did not take it - Zorn did not do a bad job here last season and hopefully will be better for it.



The second thing is that I really hope this hiring/loss hurts the giants defense

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:That's not much of a leap at all...

It's already been said that Spags turned down the Redskins job because they were in such disarray.

Who said that?

He turned down the Washington Redskins job last year after being lauded for the pass-rushing game plan that stunned Tom Brady and New England in last year's Super Bowl.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/NFL/2009/01/03/7911101-ap.html

SkinsJock wrote:

El Mexican wrote:Related to this subject: Spagnuolou, the Giants D coordinator, has just been hired by the Rams as headcoach.

The thing is the Redskisn offered him the job last year and he declined the offer. This is a slap to the face to Snyder and speaks volumes of how he and the organization is perceived.

Still more evidence that DS and Vinny are ruining this franchise.

2 things here - we would not be a better team with Spagnuolo as our HC - not taking anything away from him, hopefully he has a great career BUT there is no way that you can convince me that we would be better off with him than Zorn - Zorn will show that he is one of the better coaches in the NFL, lets see how Spags goes in St Louis next season.

thankfully IF he was offered the job by Snyder, he did not take it - Zorn did not do a bad job here last season and hopefully will be better for it.



The second thing is that I really hope this hiring/loss hurts the giants defense

The problem is he has 16 (i hope) games to prove it. We may never know what kind of coach he can be if Snyder doesn't give him at least 3 year. Is there anyone here who thinks Snyder will retain Zorn if he doesn't make the playoffs next year??