The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

DEHog wrote:Becuase a few is all we have and for everone one of those names I can name two FA that we brought in...Take a look at Indy, Philly, NY, Pitt,TEnn, S.D. and see how they fill their rosters??

Sorry I was wrong...it's probably more like 5-6 FA for those lited...here's 36

Mark Carrier
Jeff George
Adrian Murrell
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Tony Banks
Danny Wuerffel
Shane Matthews
Tim Hasselbeck.
Mark Brunell
Marcus Washington
Todd Collins
Antwaan Randle El
Brandon Lloyd
Christian Fauria
Mike Pucillo
Andre Carter
Mike Rumph
Kenny Wright
Adam Archuleta
David Patten
Bryan Barker
Michael Bates
Shaun Suisham
Shawn Springs
Leigh Torrence
Mike Sellers
London Fletcher
Casey Rabach
Pete Kendall
Erasmus James
Phillip Daniels
Cornelius Griffin
Randy Thomas
Deangelo Halll[/quote]


I guess I should have been more explicit ... what does that prove? Are you going to argue that those were all bad signings? I mean I get that we want the team to build more through the draft but I guarantee you I can find teams whose free agent lists are just as long, especially going back as far as you obviously did.

DEHog wrote:

Fios wrote:

DEHog wrote:

ChocolateMilk wrote:

VRIEL1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:Here's am idea why don't we draft and develop our own great player!!

Umm, In case you didn't get the memo, the Skins don't develope anyone. They always look at predeveloped players. When we bring in draftees and try to develpe them they get picked off our practice squad or let go.

Chris ey, Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, Ladell Betts, Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, Carlos Rodgers, Rocky McIntosh... thats to name a few players we drafted and are good contributers or even pro bowlers

Becuase a few is all we have and for everone one of those names I can name two FA that we brought in...Take a look at Indy, Philly, NY, Pitt,TEnn, S.D. and see how they fill their rosters??

I'll take that challenge, name the 16 free agents

Sorry I was wrong...it's probably more like 5-6 FA for those lited...here's 36

Mark Carrier
Jeff George
Adrian Murrell
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Tony Banks
Danny Wuerffel
Shane Matthews
Tim Hasselbeck.
Mark Brunell
Marcus Washington
Todd Collins
Antwaan Randle El
Brandon Lloyd
Christian Fauria
Mike Pucillo
Andre Carter
Mike Rumph
Kenny Wright
Adam Archuleta
David Patten
Bryan Barker
Michael Bates
Shaun Suisham
Shawn Springs
Leigh Torrence
Mike Sellers
London Fletcher
Casey Rabach
Pete Kendall
Erasmus James
Phillip Daniels
Cornelius Griffin
Randy Thomas
Deangelo Halll

Wouldn't they need to be currenty on the team to qualify? Since he included Sean Taylor, I guess you only need 14 names (which you do have on the list).

Fios wrote:

DEHog wrote:

ChocolateMilk wrote:

VRIEL1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:Here's am idea why don't we draft and develop our own great player!!

Umm, In case you didn't get the memo, the Skins don't develope anyone. They always look at predeveloped players. When we bring in draftees and try to develpe them they get picked off our practice squad or let go.

Chris ey, Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, Ladell Betts, Sean Taylor, Laron Landry, Carlos Rodgers, Rocky McIntosh... thats to name a few players we drafted and are good contributers or even pro bowlers

Becuase a few is all we have and for everone one of those names I can name two FA that we brought in...Take a look at Indy, Philly, NY, Pitt,TEnn, S.D. and see how they fill their rosters??

I'll take that challenge, name the 16 free agents

Jansen was drafted in 1999. Free agent "busts" or under-performers since then. And this isn't even a full list. This is just the guys that I came up with by doing a quick google search. So this is only some of the free agents that we have brought in over the past 10 years that have not worked out.

1. Larry Centers (1999)
2. Jeff George (2000)
3. Irving Fryar (2000)
4. Bruce Smith (2000)
5. Deion Sanders (2000)
6. Mark Carrier (2000)
7. Tony Banks (2001)
8. Walter Rasby (2001)
9. Kevin Mitchell (2001)
10. Shane Matthews (2002)
11. Wilbert Brown (2002)
12. David Loverne (2002)
13. Jeremiah Trotter (2002)
14. Shane Matthews (2002)
15. Danny Wuerffel (2002)
16. Trung Candidate (2003)
17. Regan Upshaw (2003)
18. Bernard Holsey (2003)
19. Boonell (2004) - via trade
20. David Patten (2005)
21. Warrick Holdman (2005)
22. Brandon Lloyd (2006) - via trade
23. Randle El (2006)
24. Archuleta (2006)
25. Jason Taylor (2008) - via trade

CanesSkins26 wrote:Jansen was drafted in 1999. Free agent "busts" or under-performers since then. And this isn't even a full list. This is just the guys that I came up with by doing a quick google search. So this is only some of the free agents that we have brought in over the past 10 years that have not worked out.

1. Larry Centers (1999)
2. Jeff George (2000)
3. Irving Fryar (2000)
4. Bruce Smith (2000)
5. Deion Sanders (2000)
6. Mark Carrier (2000)
7. Tony Banks (2001)
8. Walter Rasby (2001)
9. Kevin Mitchell (2001)
10. Shane Matthews (2002)
11. Wilbert Brown (2002)
12. David Loverne (2002)
13. Jeremiah Trotter (2002)
14. Shane Matthews (2002)
15. Danny Wuerffel (2002)
16. Trung Candidate (2003)
17. Regan Upshaw (2003)
18. Bernard Holsey (2003)
19. Boonell (2004) - via trade
20. David Patten (2005)
21. Warrick Holdman (2005)
22. Brandon Lloyd (2006) - via trade
23. Randle El (2006)
24. Archuleta (2006)
25. Jason Taylor (2008) - via trade

I would argue that Centers did work out. And wouldn't trading for a player mean they weren't FAs?

CanesSkins26 wrote:So this is only some of the free agents that we have brought in over the past 10 years that have not worked out.

1. Larry Centers (1999)
3. Irving Fryar (2000)
7. Tony Banks (2001)
9. Kevin Mitchell (2001)
15. Danny Wuerffel (2002)
19. Boonell (2004) - via trade
23. Randle El (2006)

While that list isn't a bad one, I'm not sure it proves anything. (I mean, seriously, how many of our draft picks could be lined up right alongside of those guys? Pretty much most of our picks outside of 1st rounders in the last 10 years.)

Besides, the ones that I've kept, quoted above, I would dispute. They were fine FA signings for the Redskins. Keep in mind that not everyone is signed to be the next LT (or whoever), so they can't be blamed if they aren't a home-run signing, just like a 3rd round draft pick is considered a success if they contribute significantly for a few years. Many FAs are simply brought in to be serviceable, blue-collar players. Everyone I've kept above IMO did fine in that role.

My point all along has been we do not draft and develop our own talent as much as the more successful teams around the league do. We seem to do it the opposite way. Successful teams add a FA here or there to compliment their team where as we seems to build the better part of our team via Free Agency...The list of FA that have come through here during the Snyder era is staggering compare to the number of draft picks we have developed If you look at are starting lineups we have 4 on O and 5 on D that we drafted.

Irn-Bru wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:So this is only some of the free agents that we have brought in over the past 10 years that have not worked out.

1. Larry Centers (1999)
3. Irving Fryar (2000)
7. Tony Banks (2001)
9. Kevin Mitchell (2001)
15. Danny Wuerffel (2002)
19. Boonell (2004) - via trade
23. Randle El (2006)

While that list isn't a bad one, I'm not sure it proves anything. (I mean, seriously, how many of our draft picks could be lined up right alongside of those guys? Pretty much most of our picks outside of 1st rounders in the last 10 years.)

Besides, the ones that I've kept, quoted above, I would dispute. They were fine FA signings for the Redskins. Keep in mind that not everyone is signed to be the next LT (or whoever), so they can't be blamed if they aren't a home-run signing, just like a 3rd round draft pick is considered a success if they contribute significantly for a few years. Many FAs are simply brought in to be serviceable, blue-collar players. Everyone I've kept above IMO did fine in that role.

You might even add Bruce Smith to your list.

Anyone who thinks Larry Centers didn't "work out" has a poor memory, he was great for the Redskins, it was a piss poor personnel decision by Schottenheimer that ended his tenure

If we cut Randle El he would be in Philly or NY before sundown.

Fios wrote:Anyone who thinks Larry Centers didn't "work out" has a poor memory, he was great for the Redskins, it was a piss poor personnel decision by Schottenheimer that ended his tenure

My God... I'm glad you read that too... Larry Centers???? He was the man.

I don't think we're a "free agent" from the super bowl, so I don't think it makes a lot of sense to go for ANY of the splashy signings. I think we should do three things:

1) Not overreact and cut every vet, but we should look to unload 2 or 3 contracts and take some cap hit for more flexibility later. Guys like ARE who just aren't panning out (for the cap he's taking) and just don't look like they will.

2) We focus on drafting some quality depth who can come and play WITH and not instead of the rest of the remaining vets preparing them to take over rather then throwing them in the fire and flushing a season that doesn't seem like it needs to be flushed.

3) We look for any opportunistic free agent signings.

We do have talent and could look to contend next year. Look at who's in the NFC Championship this year! But getting some stability for JC, experience for Zorn and working our recent draft picks into the system while looking to take a step forward makes sense. Looking for a splashy signing that ties our hands everywhere else seems like a bad move to me.

Countertrey wrote:

Fios wrote:Anyone who thinks Larry Centers didn't "work out" has a poor memory, he was great for the Redskins, it was a piss poor personnel decision by Schottenheimer that ended his tenure

My God... I'm glad you read that too... Larry Centers???? He was the man.

What, I get no love? I pointed that out last page.

I don't think this is about the quality of the FA buyt the revolving door in Ashburn. I'd love to see a stat on the number of FA signings per team for the past ten years. Our problem is we spend and give away pick for high priced FA (see Jason Taylor) and then we have to scramble to round out our roster and end up with not to good our aging FA when we should have a young first or second round player...learning on the Job

Fios wrote:Anyone who thinks Larry Centers didn't "work out" has a poor memory, he was great for the Redskins, it was a piss poor personnel decision by Schottenheimer that ended his tenure

Centers did ok here but he is another example of a player that had his best seasons with another team. For the Skins he had 605 total yards in 1999 and 703 in 2000. In 1996, for Arizona, he had 1191 total yards. In 1995 for the Cardinals he had 1216 yards. Again, I'm not saying that he was terrible for us (he wasn't), but we have a history of signing players that have done very well for another team but then don't match or equal that success once they get here.

Going for quality Free agents is fine, but who can we purge to lessen the hit on our pocketbook? And, I'm not sure if any of these guys would make that much of a difference for us without hurting us financially with the cap.

Carter and Suggs both play RDE, correct? Not a good fit unless Carter's contract is up.

Sproles is a fireplug and I remember what Joe Washington did for us but can this guy last in the NFL? He's elusive but how long can he last?

Haynesworth is a beast but not sure what a guy like this does for your locker room. Defense really isn't our biggest problem, and we do have two younger DTs and could draft a really good one at the spot we're at because there will be a run on offensive players this year. I think if there's an FA who is young enough and has a lot of upside, we consider them. I don't see a lot out there I'd be particularly interested in this year.

Gibbs4Life wrote:If we cut Randle El he would be in Philly or NY before sundown.

not that that's a bad thing

I certainly hope he's still an effective player - I mean, do you think we have a bunch of guys on this team that cannot play anymore?


In my opinion most players are cut because they do not fit into that team's plans and most players who are cut would most likely fit into some other team's plans - the biggest mistake is to keep really good players who are not really a good fit for what you do.

If you cannot trade players who are any good you are just hurting your own team by not cutting them.

Is the question, 'What players would revive the Redskins reputation?' I have to ask, what reputation? The reputation of hiring expensive players in free agency that have little to no impact? If so, I would say Haynesworth because he'll probably cost the most and have the least amount of impact. Keep building through the draft.

DEHog wrote:I don't think this is about the quality of the FA buyt the revolving door in Ashburn. I'd love to see a stat on the number of FA signings per team for the past ten years. Our problem is we spend and give away pick for high priced FA (see Jason Taylor) and then we have to scramble to round out our roster and end up with not to good our aging FA when we should have a young first or second round player...learning on the Job

Here's the thing, though. The Skins have been extremely quiet in FA the past two years; the only guy we have picked up, via trade, has been Jason Taylor, and that was only because we had an extreme need for a DE.

I would hasten a guess that when you list teams by number of free agent signings in the past two years, the Skins, with their amazing ZERO, would rank pretty near the bottom.

You guys I did forget Peppers and he is a beast, my bad. Anyways I do not understand the people who say we need to draft! I am saying that too, we wouldnt trade anything to get these guys we would just sign them and draft also I just think they could be two solid YOUNG players for our defense for many years. I mean Suggs as a hybrid is sick and I know Haynesworth has not been through a whole season, but its not like he has missed games like Springs. I think he missed like 3 or 4 and a lot of them did not count they had the number 1 seed locked up in week 13, and with a D-Line our DB's go from a beast 8 to a perfect 10! I am still for it, oh and it gives us the chance to draft young O-Line.

PulpExposure wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don't think this is about the quality of the FA buyt the revolving door in Ashburn. I'd love to see a stat on the number of FA signings per team for the past ten years. Our problem is we spend and give away pick for high priced FA (see Jason Taylor) and then we have to scramble to round out our roster and end up with not to good our aging FA when we should have a young first or second round player...learning on the Job

Here's the thing, though. The Skins have been extremely quiet in FA the past two years; the only guy we have picked up, via trade, has been Jason Taylor, and that was only because we had an extreme need for a DE.

I would hasten a guess that when you list teams by number of free agent signings in the past two years, the Skins, with their amazing ZERO, would rank pretty near the bottom.

To expand on PE's point, it's one thing to be critical of the team, it's another to just deal in total falsehoods. Has the management of the team left something to be desired? Of course. But buying into the very narrative that we (rightly) rail against the national media for exaggerating is not helpful.

Haynesworth is a fantastic player. He will command a boat load of money though. So much that there will be no money left for any other quality player.
Sproles is an interesting prospect. We already have a pro bowler in Portis, but we may need a quality back like Sproles. Also I do not think Sproles commands a huge contract like Haynesworth would. This is one to really consider.

Suggs, I would pass on Suggs being that he has been in the league a while now. Also he will be looking for a huge payday as well.

The only option to consider would be Sproles. Other than that I really do not want the team to sign any high priced free agents. I would rather we draft and develop our own. Particularly the defensive line and offensive line right away.

Sproles is probably going to want to go to a team where he can be the feature back, or at least in a 2 back system. I dont see him coming here.

HEROHAMO wrote:Other than that I really do not want the team to sign any high priced free agents. I would rather we draft and develop our own. Particularly the defensive line and offensive line right away.

Why can't we sign these YOUNG defensive guys and continue to draft O-Line and D line and develop players of our own around them for many years to come?

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

DEHog wrote:I don't think this is about the quality of the FA buyt the revolving door in Ashburn. I'd love to see a stat on the number of FA signings per team for the past ten years. Our problem is we spend and give away pick for high priced FA (see Jason Taylor) and then we have to scramble to round out our roster and end up with not to good our aging FA when we should have a young first or second round player...learning on the Job

Here's the thing, though. The Skins have been extremely quiet in FA the past two years; the only guy we have picked up, via trade, has been Jason Taylor, and that was only because we had an extreme need for a DE.

I would hasten a guess that when you list teams by number of free agent signings in the past two years, the Skins, with their amazing ZERO, would rank pretty near the bottom.

To expand on PE's point, it's one thing to be critical of the team, it's another to just deal in total falsehoods. Has the management of the team left something to be desired? Of course. But buying into the very narrative that we (rightly) rail against the national media for exaggerating is not helpful.

I don't base it on the media...I also don't see it as a falsehood. While I do agree we have started to do business a bit smarter the past couple of years the fact remains that FA still dominates our starting lineup. What does it say about your front office when you have to rely on FA to better your team...and here we are yet again on the eve of the draft with only 4 picks???

PMG12569 wrote:I know Haynesworth has not been through a whole season, but its not like he has missed games like Springs.

The point is, he misses games exactly like Springs.

Since 2003 (when Haynesworth first became a full-time starter as a 2nd year player), Haynesworth has played in 74/96 games (77% of games).

In the same time frame, 2003 onwards, Springs has played in 76 of 96 games (79% of games).

Springs has actually played in MORE games. And Springs is a lot older. And it's not as if Haynesworth is going to improve on this as he ages, since he plays at a physically demanding position.