The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:00 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.

I have no need for Haynesworth specifically, I have a need for what he can bring/do. Some whomever it is, get him. I

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:01 pm**

I say no looking to "next year" until we take care of the Beagles...

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:02 pm**

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.

I have no need for Haynesworth specifically, I have a need for what he can bring/do. Some whomever it is, get him. I

Oh I agree on the principle, just not on Haynesworth himself. That last I makes me wonder what the rest of the thought was.

Something like: I, CLL, do hereby swear to love Vinny Cerrato and Daniel Snyder for the rest of my life, without reservation, and to always have an optimistic view on the Redskins.

?

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:27 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.

I have no need for Haynesworth specifically, I have a need for what he can bring/do. Some whomever it is, get him. I

Oh I agree on the principle, just not on Haynesworth himself. That last I makes me wonder what the rest of the thought was.

Something like: I, CLL, do hereby swear to love Vinny Cerrato and Daniel Snyder for the rest of my life, without reservation, and to always have an optimistic view on the Redskins.

?

It hurt me to read that.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:29 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.

I have no need for Haynesworth specifically, I have a need for what he can bring/do. Some whomever it is, get him. I

Oh I agree on the principle, just not on Haynesworth himself. That last I makes me wonder what the rest of the thought was.

Something like: I, CLL, do hereby swear to love Vinny Cerrato and Daniel Snyder for the rest of my life, without reservation, and to always have an optimistic view on the Redskins.

?

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:36 pm**

All free agent acquisitions hinge on the money, specifically the bonus, we have to offer. We can backload and offer incentives and offer a bazillion dollars in the 12th year of the contract, BUT, be careful about the size of the bonus offered to aging, possibly over-hyped players.

Not saying to avoid Haynesworth. Just saying, in regards to all free agent ideas we need to consider the bonus money required for their services.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:07 pm**

fleetus wrote:Not saying to avoid Haynesworth. Just saying, in regards to all free agent ideas we need to consider the bonus money required for their services.

Yeah, but that's the thing; the bonus numbers lately have been positively insane. When the very average Justin Smith got 20 million in a signing bonus, Shaun Rogers got 20 million in a signing bonus from Cleveland, Kris Jenkins got 20 million in a signing bonus from the Jets (and non-d lineman Derrick Dockery got 18 million), I can't imagine what Haynesworth is going to get.

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:13 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:
fleetus wrote:Not saying to avoid Haynesworth. Just saying, in regards to all free agent ideas we need to consider the bonus money required for their services.

Yeah, but that's the thing; the bonus numbers lately have been positively insane. When the very average Justin Smith got 20 million in a signing bonus, Shaun Rogers got 20 million in a signing bonus from Cleveland, Kris Jenkins got 20 million in a signing bonus from the Jets (and non-d lineman Derrick Dockery got 18 million), I can't imagine what Haynesworth is going to get.

Snyder loves us right? He's a true fan that doesn't get the love he deserves? Right? Then he'll do it. :lol:

Posted: **Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:38 pm**

PulpExposure wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
VetSkinsFan wrote:Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

This is one thing you won't have to worry about.

Now if we don't get Hayensworth, I'll be irate.

Seriously? I'd like to get Haynesworth, but I see some seriously significant drawbacks to him.

(1) he is due monster money offers from all sorts of teams; and
(2) haynesworth is always injured. Of his 7 NFL seasons, he's only lasted 16 games one year (his rookie year); Since that rookie year, he's played in 74 of 96 possible games (77% of games). As a comparison, it seems like Griffin is always injured and missing games...yet Haynesworth misses more games due to injury than Griffin has with the Skins (he's played in 69 of 78 games as a Redskin...88% of games).

And as Haynesworth gets older, it's not like he'll get more healthy...

It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.

All good points. And if Snyder did in fact sign Haynesworth, wouldn't that be considered the flashy, over-the-top, high priced free agent signing that these very same people criticize Snyder for? They always say build through the draft and develop your own, right?

Both Williams and Blache have thought, and said, that Golston and Monty could develop into good players. I'm not saying either of those guys are the answer, but I'm not sure Haynesworth, at that high of a price, would be the right way to go either.

I think some have to remember that the lack of a pass rush from the interior of the d-line is partially due to scheme. Blache and the players have said that the tackles don't just freely rush upfield, in an effort to stop the run, fill gaps and stop a QB from scrambling up the middle, and that's by design.

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:13 am**

Skinsfan55 wrote:The Redskins are basically done? What kind of fair weather far or sunshine soldier would make a statement like this?

Redskins Tight End Chris ey:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ne/?page=2

He's right though, I thought we had a real outside chance at 10 wins there with those last 3 games, but we blew it. I predict a 7-9 season. It's not so bad if you think about it. We'll get a mid round draft pick (of course, our #2 pick is completely wasted on Jason Taylor.)

If we let Zorn and his staff stay in place we may see some improvement in his system next season, since receivers generally have a steeper learning curve maybe they'll all (Thomas, Kelly and Davis) step up at the same time as some of the new draft picks.

Personally I think we have a shot at Laurinaitis (with Fletcher getting older, it may be a smart pick) but if not him, there's a variety of offensive and defensive linemen. An earlier pick can sometimes handcuff you, but a mid round pick lets you take a position of need. Maybe next season will be brighter.

We are going to get an earlier pick, not a mid-round, and you want to to draft for a position played by our best and most productive player instead of an offensive lineman. Have I got that right?

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 am**

While I support attention to the defensive line, in my opinion, the most important lineman we need are on the offensive side.

Our defense has played well - sure, they could use and will get an upgrade but IF our offense could be a little more effective and our defense had played the same as they have recently - those game winning drives our defense gave up would have been for nothing because we should have scored more points.

A better more effective line will give us 2 very important things - an ability to score more points and an ability to be running the ball (AND using up the clock) in the 4th quarter because we are not trying to score points quickly - IF we could score more points earlier in the game the defense could shut the other team down as instead of the opposing team running the ball they would have to try and throw - there are 3 things that happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad.

I know that Portis was effective this year but unfortunately all those rushing yards were not translating into points - and in the 4th quarter instead of using up the clock we always seemed to need to score - we need to score more points in the first 3 quarters

We are going to have a new QB next year and a new kicker (and punter) to go along with our upgrades on both the offensive and defensive lines.

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:58 am**

There are some positions that are really over-priced in free agency. It changes some with supply and demand, but basically, QB, DE, DT, LT and CB are always gona cost big $$$. So, every time a team signs a top tier free agent, especially at these positions, it is like buying on credit. You are going to pay more and it will almost always hurt your budget in the future.

To consistently contend in the NFL (Pittsburgh and New England) you have to place more value on draft choices and you have to have the scouting and G.M. to cherry pick some gems from the draft every year. When that gem becomes a star and enters free agency 4 years later, you probably will need to let them walk because some other team (Redskins, Cowboys) will overpay. You get to keep some of your players longer term and if a player becomes a fan favorite, (Brady, Manning) you might just have to decide to lock them up long term and lose that chunk of cap space for good. But you don't contend very often chasing the big free agents every year. Instead of Haynesworth, we should be eyeing a 3rd rounder who could become a Haynesworth. if we don't have the personnel to find a 3rd rounder and turn him into a Haynesworth, then THAT needs to be fixed first and foremost.

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:47 am**

Out with old in offseason for Redskins
Team may seek youth after failure of veterans
David Elfin
Friday, December 19, 2008

Jon Jansen's decade in Washington makes him the longest-tenured Redskins player. Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Shawn Springs and Marcus Washington - like Jansen - have started when healthy for virtually every game since they signed with the Redskins in 2004.

However, all five of those longtime Washington players could be gone by Feb. 28 as the Redskins prepare to reshape their roster during the free agent signing period.

Hard-pressed against the NFL salary cap in 2007 and not looking to tinker much in 2008 in the wake of the run to the playoffs last December, Washington owner Dan Snyder could return to his aggressive ways of offseasons past because the club is in relatively good shape capwise for 2009, the starting lineup is aging and brittle, and the 1-5 second-half crash uncovered some glaring holes that the 6-2 start hid.

Start with right tackle Jansen and the rest of the offensive line. The unit, which looked experienced when the Redskins' offense soared during late September and early October, now looks over the hill.

Jansen ($4.54 million cap number for 2009) and right guard Randy Thomas ($5.018 million) both turn 33 in January. They could both be released and replaced by Stephon Heyer ($463,000) and Chad Rinehart ($537,000). Left tackle Chris Samuels ($8.63 million), who turns 32 in July, isn't going anywhere, and center Casey Rabach ($3.65 million), 32 in September, probably isn't either. Left guard Pete Kendall turns 36 in July and is unsigned, but he should return for a reasonable price after a solid season, especially if Jansen and Thomas are let go.

Cutting players with multiple years left on their contracts is complicated by signing bonus acceleration. Releasing Thomas, for example, would cost the Redskins $3.318 million in 2009 with the remaining $3.681 million hit coming in 2010. So he's more likely to remain than his high cap number would indicate. Daniels, Jansen, Griffin, Washington and Springs would be less expensive for the Redskins to pay not to play in 2009.

Since most teams have more cap room than usual, more prospective free agents figure to re-sign before they can begin to explore other opportunities on March 1. As of now, the Redskins are a reasonable $6.09 million over the expected $123 million cap, and their only unsigned starters are Kendall, defensive end Demetric Evans, defensive tackle Kedric Golston and cornerback DeAngelo Hall, whom the team signed off waivers last month.

If Hall re-signs, as he has said he wants to, that could cause Washington to jettison Springs, who turns 34 in March and whose $8.485 million cap number includes a $6 million base salary. Fred Smoot, expensive for a fourth corner at $4.15 million ($2.65 million base salary), could also be a target for cap relief.

Washington's defensive line could see even more change. Griffin is a proven tackle, but at 32, he's slowing down and his $6.166 million cap number makes him vulnerable. The Redskins can match offers to restricted free agent tackles Golston and Anthony Montgomery, but they're both unsigned.

Jason Taylor and Evans, the two players who've split the left end spot since Phillip Daniels suffered a season-ending knee injury on the first snap of training camp, might also not return. Daniels turns 36 in March and counts $2.156 million against the 2009 cap. Jason Taylor, a six-time Pro Bowl selection in Miami, has had two medical procedures and been a bust in Washington. The 34-year-old acknowledged he's not worth the money he's due in 2009 during an interview with WJFK-FM on Thursday.

"If I'm not back, I wouldn´t be surprised," Taylor said about his $8.5 million cap number ($6.48 million base). "I'm not worth it. I'll be the first to tell you, I stink."

Linebacker Washington has missed six of the last 13 games and 16 of the last 32 with injuries. He turns 32 in October, and $4.5 million of his $6.52 million compensation for 2009 is base salary. The trouble is the Redskins don't have a true comer among their backup linebackers and they have traded their second- (for Taylor), fourth- (to move up this year to select tight end Fred Davis) and seventh- (for the since-cut Erasmus James) round choices in next April's draft.

Although rookie receivers Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly have been unproductive, the Redskins could drop Antwaan Randle El, who has a $4 million base salary and a $6.119 million cap number and hasn't been a playmaker at receiver or punt returner.

Link

Posted: **Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:03 pm**

Snyder could return to his aggressive ways of offseasons past because the club is in relatively good shape capwise for 2009

Just another big ball of opinionated speculation. I predict there will be some turn over, but that was to be expected anyway because Gibbs left. any time you hire a new coach the first couple of years are spent reshaping the roster.

Jansen is overpaid and will be cut or massively re-structured. I'd like to see him stay for a paycut because he's a leader and would be good depth.

Springs and Griffin are likely gone because of injuries/salary.

I doubt R. Thomas or M. Washington will be cut.

I hope they decide to let ARE go.

So we'll probably have a similar starting roster next year, because Heyer, Hall and Golston/Montgomery, who have been starters this year, will replace the departed Jansen, Springs and Griff. Can't see us going after a big name free agent WR, so we'll probably sign a veteran insurance policy like B. Engram or Toomer in case #11 and #12 fail to improve. There are a lot of good free agent offensive lineman so expect at least one new face there.

Free agents I could see us talking too:

WR - Housh - will command big money and probably is ready to leave Cincy. Too much moolah for us, but getting him would be cool!

RT - Marc Columbo - won't be cheap, but Dan won't be able to resist the opportunity to take a good player away from Jerry jones.

DE - Julius Peppers - Can we afford this guy? I don't think so. I also think we'd be better off working with JT to make our defensive scheme cater to his talents by moving him around both sides of the ball and mixing in OLB and DE packages.

WR - Sam Hurd - another Cowboy we could pluck away and for less money than Columbo.

WR - Toomer and Engram - two aging veterans who could be good veteran insurance policies for letting ARE go and waiting for D. Thomas and M. Kelly to develop. Giants and Seahawks probably will re-sign both.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:35 am**

fleetus wrote:
Skinsfan55 wrote:The Redskins are basically done? What kind of fair weather far or sunshine soldier would make a statement like this?

Redskins Tight End Chris ey:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ne/?page=2

He's right though, I thought we had a real outside chance at 10 wins there with those last 3 games, but we blew it. I predict a 7-9 season. It's not so bad if you think about it. We'll get a mid round draft pick (of course, our #2 pick is completely wasted on Jason Taylor.)

If we let Zorn and his staff stay in place we may see some improvement in his system next season, since receivers generally have a steeper learning curve maybe they'll all (Thomas, Kelly and Davis) step up at the same time as some of the new draft picks.

Personally I think we have a shot at Laurinaitis (with Fletcher getting older, it may be a smart pick) but if not him, there's a variety of offensive and defensive linemen. An earlier pick can sometimes handcuff you, but a mid round pick lets you take a position of need. Maybe next season will be brighter.

You know, I said this numerous times on this forum back when we got Jason Taylor and I'll say it again now. JT is a lightweight, hybrid DL/LB who is a great talent ONLY if used properly. You can't line him up a LDE, where a real LDE (#93) has played, and expect him to stop the run or consistently terrorize the QB. You need to move him around, line him up at OLB one play, opposite OLB next play, RDE and LDE on other plays. When he gets inside the heads of the QB and offensive line it opens it up for the whole defense and then JT shines. He zone blitzes and drops into coverage the next play. He stunts inside, then comes off the edge next time. Why isn't it obvious that Nick Saban tapped into JT's strengths? Why would a coaching staff be so rigid to line up a 245# guy whose strengths are his versatility and make him play man-up with a 320# RT every play??? This is one of the main things that needs to be changed next year.

Next, we need to give Thomas and Kelly every opportunity to win a starting WR job. #89 and 82 will never get it done as a tandem and they may be too pricey to cut or trade.

We need to develop Rhinehart and Heyer further, then draft another 3rd or 4th round OL for depth.

Maybe if we have a top 20 pick, we'll get lucky and have a chance at a decent DE. Not some hybrid JT clone which are always lurking around the 1st round, but a true big framed DE (6'2"+ and 275# +) who knows how to play 4-3 scheme.

Our OLB are good, but we have no depth there either.

Smoot is average at best and Springs is injury prone, so we may need to consider keeping D. Hall to play ooposite Carlos (who finally stepped up this year). I've argued with people on this forum for three years that Carlos would develop and I think he finally is.

It's total nonsense to think Heyer and Rhineheart are going to make a difference. Both are back up material at best. We've got to spend all of our top picks on offensive linemen-- we can get a stud and a prospect, round 1 and round 3. We'll need a couple more OL's who are better than average to come as FA's. Then, we need to spend really big bucks for a top DT. Further, we need to steal or trade for an LB of exceptional merit and replace our kickers on the cheap.

If I'm coaching the team next year, ARE will not be returning punts or starting at wide receiver. Nor will Thrash or Jansen or Yoder or Betts be on the team. Here's two more radical moves: Campbell will start looking for Thomas and Kelly or find himself on the pine, and Davis, Kelly, and Cool

y will be on the field with Moss or Thomas in the red zone. Depending on the draft, Pete, Casey, and Thomas may or may not be retained.

I'd try to trade Campbell for a number 1, maybe a 2. Or bundle Campbell with someone else looking for a 1.

I'd love to go into this draft with two 1's looking for a top OL and a QB. Won't happen, but I can dream. Any here radical enough to give Michael Vick a look? Maybe he's learned something.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:21 am**

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
fleetus wrote:Not saying to avoid Haynesworth. Just saying, in regards to all free agent ideas we need to consider the bonus money required for their services.

Yeah, but that's the thing; the bonus numbers lately have been positively insane. When the very average Justin Smith got 20 million in a signing bonus, Shaun Rogers got 20 million in a signing bonus from Cleveland, Kris Jenkins got 20 million in a signing bonus from the Jets (and non-d lineman Derrick Dockery got 18 million), I can't imagine what Haynesworth is going to get.

Snyder loves us right? He's a true fan that doesn't get the love he deserves? Right? Then he'll do it.

he loves the team and the fans, I hope that he gets a bunch of bruisers to play in the treanches but so long as he gets a bunch of skill guys in the draft and a washed up FS for a FA. I will not like him, it is obvious to me that the line men are on there way hooray for mr. snyder

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:06 am**

Crazyhorse, it's nonsense for me to ever think that Heyer and Rinehart could make a difference (they're a 2nd year guy and a rookie afterall) but it's your position we should trade Campbell, sign Mike Vick and dump at least 3/5ths of our offensive line?

I see.

To say that Rinehart and Heyer are backups at best is foolish IMO. They're 24 and 23. It may be that their niche in the NFL is to be backups, but at this time it would be impossible to tell.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:56 pm**

Skinsfan55 wrote:Crazyhorse, it's nonsense for me to ever think that Heyer and Rinehart could make a difference (they're a 2nd year guy and a rookie afterall) but it's your position we should trade Campbell, sign Mike Vick and dump at least 3/5ths of our offensive line?

I see.

To say that Rinehart and Heyer are backups at best is foolish IMO. They're 24 and 23. It may be that their niche in the NFL is to be backups, but at this time it would be impossible to tell.

I only asked if anyone here wanted to give Vick a look. I didn't say sign him.

I've got to stand by the Heyer and Rineheart comment. Heyer's too soft in the body and lacks strength and Rineheart's a question mark because of the level at which he played in college. He's also failed to get himself activated for a single game this year. In short, he's still inexperienced in anything above small college ball.

If we are going to be halfway successful, we will surely have to upgrade at least three OL positions. If we should get a first round choice by trading Campbell, we should do it. He's not the guy. I'd rather have any one of the first round or second round QB's than Campbell.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 pm**

crazyhorse1 wrote:If we should get a first round choice by trading Campbell, we should do it. He's not the guy. I'd rather have any one of the first round or second round QB's than Campbell.

There is no way someone would give a 1st for Campbell. That's insane.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:04 pm**

Win the game. Just win.

Posted: **Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:17 pm**

YEEEEEA!!!! Draft talk that's what i'm talking about. Now on to the topic at hand, Zorn is my choice for the next three years as head coach. He toke the job on short notice and did well for the first half of the season, then his old players ( o-line) broke down an so did the season. With less than average talent and depth we were able to be more than meets thee eye.

THE REDSKINS 09 DRAFT AND OFFSEASON (AKA THE TRANSFORMERS)

It is clear to everyone that " WE MUST REBUILD" to do that and build a winner history shows that you start with o-line and d-line. We need to get younger and more talented at both, to do this should start with the strongest of your needs in the draft. This year that is the o-line in all three postions ( OG,OT and OC). The problem is with just four picks we have to trade for more picks or go with the safest pick at one of the three postions.
I believe our weakest postion on the o-line is OG bottom line. There are more talented OT but #60 will not be traded and # 74 is really a RT, so will be fine.
But Pete and Randy can not and not start next year. Here are some first round choices. We have too pick at least two OG.

Duke Robinson OG
George Robinson OG
Herman Johnson OG

Late picks

Rey Feinga OG
Paul Fanaika OG
Kraig Urbik OG

The drop off in talent after the first rounds at OT doesn't allow us to pick one in the later rounds, plus we need LB's. I will hit you all later wife callin.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:57 am**

crazyhorse1 wrote:I only asked if anyone here wanted to give Vick a look. I didn't say sign him

Um...NOOOOO. Anyone who could do what he did to living creatures is complete and absolute scum. He did it over a prolonged period of time, we're not talking about an isolated mistake. You don't go from that to a decent person in a year just because you got caught. I don't CARE what he can do on the football field. Life is to short to spend it with garbage like Michael Vick on your team.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:11 pm**

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
crazyhorse1 wrote:I only asked if anyone here wanted to give Vick a look. I didn't say sign him

Um...NOOOOO. Anyone who could do what he did to living creatures is complete and absolute scum. He did it over a prolonged period of time, we're not talking about an isolated mistake. You don't go from that to a decent person in a year just because you got caught. I don't CARE what he can do on the football field. Life is to short to spend it with garbage like Michael Vick on your team.

Dog/cock fighting is done all over the world. And some places it's even legal. Would you feel so inclined if it were legal here? I haven't seen too many PETA people on the forum and it's actually pretty amusing the reaction that some people have once it 'came to light.' If he's paid his debt to society, IAW the elected/appointed officials we have in place, how is it that there is still such a grudge against him?

As for trying Vick out, I see nothing wrong with it. Obviously, there needs to be attention to character incompatabilities with the existing players, but if he can get the job done, I'm for it...

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:54 pm**

VetSkinsFan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
crazyhorse1 wrote:I only asked if anyone here wanted to give Vick a look. I didn't say sign him

Um...NOOOOO. Anyone who could do what he did to living creatures is complete and absolute scum. He did it over a prolonged period of time, we're not talking about an isolated mistake. You don't go from that to a decent person in a year just because you got caught. I don't CARE what he can do on the football field. Life is to short to spend it with garbage like Michael Vick on your team.

Dog/cock fighting is done all over the world. And some places it's even legal. Would you feel so inclined if it were legal here?

Where in this argument do you get that my issue is regarding the "legality" of dog fighting?

Kaz wrote:Anyone who could do what he did to living creatures is complete and absolute scum

I tend not to care much for the law other then recognizing the consequences of my choices. I find the self righteous indignation of lawyers making our choices for us on behalf of the People's Democratic Party and God's Republican Army to be a poor reason to do anything.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I haven't seen too many PETA people on the forum and it's actually pretty amusing the reaction that some people have once it 'came to light.'

Who cares about PETA? I'm a vegetarian and I refer to them as the People for the Unethical Treatment of People. They are perfectly content to convince people of nothing and force us all to follow their moralistic standards. While I've given up on convincing people of anything because free choice to 95% of this country has devolved to who's views they have monolithically decided to follow as their own, I am still against dictating morality. That would be when no victim is involved as in dog fighting.

VetSkinsFan wrote:If he's paid his debt to society, IAW the elected/appointed officials we have in place, how is it that there is still such a grudge against him?

Wow, you completely lose me on this. His legal position with the law is supposed to affect my view of him as a human being? I don't get it. Seriously, I don't get it at all. Can you explain that to me?

VetSkinsFan wrote:As for trying Vick out, I see nothing wrong with it. Obviously, there needs to be attention to character incompatibilities with the existing players, but if he can get the job done, I'm for it...

OK, your right to your view. I didn't say no one should be allowed to advocate bringing in Vick, I said that my own view is that the guy is so completely disgustingly immoral based on his BEHAVIOR (and not what the law thinks, but what I do) that I would never support him. I will also say if we sign him I will root against the Redskins in each and every game he is on our roster hoping enough losing will cause us to cut him. I would never root for the scum bag unless he can give me some reason to believe he has changed as a person, and so far he's done NOTHING to do that.

Posted: **Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:11 pm**

What about reform and remorse? He's garbage and can never change b/c of a previous moral issue? Only God is supposed to judge. I believe that no individual is better than any other individual...

I also forgot that everything has to be turned in to a political debate (which means a lot of long winded blah blah blah). I apologize and retract my comments as I don't have time to get in to a debate with you.

The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The Redskins are basicaly done, let's look towards next year

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Re: The Redskins are basicaly done, let's look towards next