The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:As I said at the beginning of this year, the worst thing that could happen is for Zorn to have a bad year and get fired. It would show that Snyder hasn't learned jack from Gibbs.

I agree with this. Firing Zorn would be a huge, huge mistake. Zorn is still learning, and I still think he has potential to be a good, maybe even great, coach. I'm on the "Keep Zorn" Bandwagon.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:This franchise will not flourish until a coach is brought in that will stand up to Snyder...

But Snyder will just fire him...

So the true answer is, this franchise will continue to suck until Snyder is gone.

Just keep telling yourself "The Redskins are not the Lions! The Redskins are not the Lions!". That's the only way I make it through the season.

tribeofjudah wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jim Zorn is going to fail because he cannot fix the root problem which is our front office structure.

This franchise is doomed to mediocrity because of it...

This is the root. Whether JG 3.0, JZ, or Cowher is in the HC position, this team will not come to what it's capable of.

Note that I'm not down on JZ completely. I think he has a lot of soul searching and growing up to do; he wasn't ready to go from a QB coach to a HC. I think <and really hope> that things are looking up next year.

So Vet, what's your prediction? I can't read between the lines.... IS ZORN BACK FOR NEXT YEAR.....OR NOT...?

There, I even color coded it for you.

I will say this and you can quote me on it.

IF Snyder fires Zorn after one year, I am done as a fan. I would most likely abandon the NFL for a period of time as I have done with MLB, and come back in ten years and reevaluate.

I said this when Zorn was hired. He is a highly qualified Offensive Coordinator, not a head coach. After two years of being an Offensive Coordinator with the Skins, he would have been hired away from us for a head coaching position. That's the same line Danny and Vinny gave us when they hired him as the head coach. They were willing to wait it out, and with that decision, I am willing to wait as well, because great things do not happen overnight (although it seemed as though it would after the first 8 games). If they go back on that statement, I'm out of here. If they don't give him at least three years, I'm gonna be pissed. It would show me that they have no vision. No ability to plan. They knew (as do I) that the first couple years would be a learning curve for Zorn. They knew that this would be tough sledding for a couple years, but ultimately, a long term approach was the ONLY way of returning this franchise to greatness. If they scrap that idea after one year, I'm done. This would be the evidence that I would need to agree with most. That our front office is a lost, short sighted, group of baffoons that have no idea how to produce and sustain a winning team. If after three years, we are bottom feeders with Zorn, then I would agree that we need to move on.

I mean, what else can we do? Continue to hire a new coach every year if we don't win the Super Bowl? What makes you think that Cowher is the answer? Spurrier, Shottenheimer, and Gibbs couldn't do it, what makes you think Cowher can?

The attitude on this team is horrible, and those players that possess that attitude should be traded or released. The me first attitude. The I'll sit on my ass until I absolutely have to get up and work attitude. The I condition in the offseason on my own attitude. The I don't want to work in the preseason attitude. The I commit dumb penalties but I don't care attitude. The I'll point fingers at everyone else including the coach but not blame myself attitude. The I'm not replacable attitude. Whatever players pop into your head when I mention these statements, are most likely the players that should go whether they are fan favorites or not.

Zorn's presser today is evidence that he's starting to turn the corner on talking to the media. He's starting to blame himself and take responsability.

Mursilis wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:This franchise will not flourish until a coach is brought in that will stand up to Snyder...

But Snyder will just fire him...

So the true answer is, this franchise will continue to suck until Snyder is gone.

Just keep telling yourself "The Redskins are not the Lions! The Redskins are not the Lions!". That's the only way I make it through the season.

hmn, I gotta give that a try

Redskin in Canada wrote:I support Zorn. I believe in him. But I could never trust the Danny to give him the time he needs to succeed

Why? Snyder's fired exactly ONE coach that he hired, the horses posterior Marty, and that was seven years ago if I did my math right. And not only did he not hire Norv, who was a heck of a nice guy, but you can't seriously think he hadn't had a fair chance to succeed. So what it your statement Danny won't give Zorn time based on exactly?

roybus14 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

roybus14 wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

roybus14 wrote:If you Zorn is given a second year or Snyder wants to stay the course, then he needs to fire Vinny and blow this team (players) up and give Zorn somewhat of a fresh start.

Right now, that lockerroom is lost, IMO. Even with the little bit of talent this team has, they have no fight whatsoever for this guy. If this were Gibbs still coaching, they'd at least put forth more effort. At this point you have to start looking at blowing up the team, keeping a core group on both sides of the ball and starting anew.

If Snyder decides to let Zorn go after this season, then he's got to privately and publicly say that he is going to drop back 5 and punt and staff this team with a brand new that includes a qualified GM, all new coaches, and take his lumps for the first couple of years after rebuilding talent on this team. As much as I hate to say it and I know he loves Portis, he's got to let him and a few others on offense go as well as Springs and a few others on defense go and start fresh with draft picks and young free agents. If he announces this as his five-year plan and get's the right GM, HC and staff inplace and declare that he is sticking with this plan, then maybe somebody like a Bill Cowher or somebody else will listen as well as any GM's or assistant GM's.

It is clear that there is a fractured group at the Park as we see how affected the whole Portis-Zorn was on the team.

Portis vs. Zorn..........SOME LAME EXCUSE....TO ME

It's not necessarily a Portis vs. Zorn thing. Let's look beyond their tat-a-tat earlier this week. Zorn was never really prepared for the job as HC. He got thrown into because Snyder and Vinnie couldn't convince anyone else to come here and coach. It is evident since 6-2 that teams had enough film on this team and his tendencies that he become predictable. Then his in-game decisions are just baffling even for a rookie HC. Like today for example. We got about 2:07/8 left on the clock and we run a running play to Portis. Why not take an immediate shot at the endzone in that spot?

What are your sources that "they" couldn't convince anyone else to take the coaching job??? Or are you talking out the side of your.......

Tribe,

If they could have, then we would have a different HC. Snyder and Cerrato have sealed their fate by not disciplining Portis so now they have to blow this thing up.

Roybus, I agree with you...Snyder has completely undermined Zorn in this exchange and he has completely lost the locker room. They're going to spread out like a cat and resist all changes and wait for him to be fired...because that's the signal the team's getting.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8945 ... n-America'

"Zorn seemed to channel predecessor Joe Gibbs when he uttered the Hall of Fame coach's over-worn phrase: "It starts with me.""

He is taking responsbility for what this team isnt doing. Even though as much as everyone wants to put it on him some of those losses arent his fault...

An interesting stat from the Bengals game:

"Unheralded stat of the game Sunday? Of the 49 Redskins plays that were either runs or receptions, 38 involved Moss, ey or Portis. It's hard to win when the options are so limited.""

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:I support Zorn. I believe in him. But I could never trust the Danny to give him the time he needs to succeed

Why? Snyder's fired exactly ONE coach that he hired, the horses posterior Marty, and that was seven years ago if I did my math right. And not only did he not hire Norv, who was a heck of a nice guy, but you can't seriously think he hadn't had a fair chance to succeed. So what it your statement Danny won't give Zorn time based on exactly?

What?? By retaining Norv as HC he did "hire" him. He fired Marty and are you saying he didn't fire SS??? Well SS got paid when he left??

And I have it from a very good source (Ex NFL Head Coach) that Snyder did indeed renege on his promise to GW to be the HC.

I don't blindly dislike DS..It is based on what I see and what I know about him!!

I'm done with Snyder, I still think much of the narrative that surrounds him is exaggerated and unhelpful but I can't ignore the pathetic results of his tenure.

DEHog wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:I support Zorn. I believe in him. But I could never trust the Danny to give him the time he needs to succeed

Why? Snyder's fired exactly ONE coach that he hired, the horses posterior Marty, and that was seven years ago if I did my math right. And not only did he not hire Norv, who was a heck of a nice guy, but you can't seriously think he hadn't had a fair chance to succeed. So what it your statement Danny won't give Zorn time based on exactly?

What?? By retaining Norv as HC he did "hire" him. He fired Marty and are you saying he didn't fire SS??? Well SS got paid when he left??

And I have it from a very good source (Ex NFL Head Coach) that Snyder did indeed renege on his promise to GW to be the HC.

I don't blindly dislike DS..It is based on what I see and what I know about him!!

You're going to have to prove he fired SS and that GW was "promised" the job, in lieu of proof, or even evidence...

On Norv, no, he didn't hire him. And even if you want to count it that he did because you hate him and will concede nothing, the point I was refuting was that Snyder wouldn't give Zorn a chance, so unless you're arguing that Norv DIDN'T get a chance, your point he hired Norv is sort of a so what even if it is accepted, which I don't.

Fios wrote:I'm done with Snyder, I still think much of the narrative that surrounds him is exaggerated and unhelpful but I can't ignore the pathetic results of his tenure.

Well, I can't argue that. Seriously. His results have been lame and you don't trust him to improve. It's the people who are parroting specific claims in the press that I'm challenging. You address that too, that it's "exaggerated and unhelpful." Dead on.

I guess my feeling Fios is that while I can't disagree with you, I keep thinking, Steinbrenner AND Jones did it, there has to be a way.... But so far I'm not impressed either. They both did take time to figure out how to balance their money with their egos though, which is still only an "it's possible" argument.

A rant about Zorn’s coaching style…



Zorn is a smart guy. I think that we would all agree about that. However, being smart is not a prerequisite for being a good football coach. Zorn has a high football IQ in several areas. He knows how the players feel, because he was a player. He knows how the position coaches feel, because he was a position coach. He thinks that he knows how head coaches become successful, because he has been around successful coaches all of his life.



But, every coaching job is different. There are always a unique cast of players which a coach needs to mold into a successful team. Zorn doesn’t have the experience that he needs in this area. There’s a big difference between watching and learning from a head coach, and actually being the man yourself.



So, until he gains that requisite experience by learning on the job, he needs to apply general tactics that have proved to work in the past. I’ll just address one of them.



In today’s NFL, the teams are so evenly matched that you can beat the Giants one week and lose to Cincinnati the next. So, many coaches start out the game by presuming that the game will be close throughout and won in the fourth quarter by successfully executing one or two significant plays.



Well, that philosophy is usually fine if you are playing a team which is perceived as an equal. However, when you are playing Cincinnati, you need a different tact. You need to start the game off by assuming that you need to get a lead early by playing aggressively and creatively. Then, after you get that lead, you can demoralize the opponent by dominating the clock with the running game and short passes.



So, you don’t start the game by running Portis up the middle on first and second down, and then throwing to ey on third and six. That is what the opponent expects you to do.



My notion is that you need to instill in the players the concept that when the score is tied, you are actually behind. Nobody wins if the game ends 0-0. In order to win, you need to score at least one point. So, on the opening drive, use the plays that you would normally use if you were down by more than a touchdown. Throw on first down. Run reverses. Run from a Wildcat formation with the quarterback flanked out.



The idea that you should play conservatively at the beginning of the game is ridiculous to me. That is the time of the game when you need to be aggressive and bold. Stick it down the opponent’s throats and then hammer them again the next drive.



And, so what if that strategy results in you falling behind early. Just keep up the aggressiveness until you get more than a touchdown lead or the time runs out. If you do get the lead, you can start running Portis up the middle twice and throwing to ey on third down. If you never get the lead, then you have at least given it your all the whole game.



Play the game to win big from the first snap, instead of playing not to lose.

Fios wrote:I'm done with Snyder, I still think much of the narrative that surrounds him is exaggerated and unhelpful but I can't ignore the pathetic results of his tenure.

It is difficult to remove the "exaggerated narrative" once you cross the line to acknowledge his incompetence to LEAD a team or even choose a good leader at the top of the food chain.

I believed Joe Gibbs and I believe Jim Zorn when they say, as recently as yesterday in the case of Zorn, that Danny and Vinny want to win. I do believe that.

I do want to win a Nobel Prize too or even be able to race a F1 car in the competitive circuit. Only difference between the FO and myself is that I know what my main competences and limitations are and try to stick to what I do BEST. And what I do, I do among the very best in the entire world.

Dan Snyder is SO STUBBORN and PROUD that he cannot see that he has to REMOVE himself from the FO and his only decision is to hire absolutely the BEST person in the world to be the GM of this team. Nothing else. That simple.

It will not happen though. He will be blind to the developments in Miami and Atlanta. A scorpion is a scorpion. Just ask the frog.

Zorn doesn't have a chance...

The ONLY chance we have is for Cowher or Marty to come here and put their foot up Danny's youknowwhat.

Anybody else will and has failed... Deal with it.

Zorn definitely deserves more than another chance. Seven wins any other way this season and most Redskins fans would be saying how the year went better than expected.

http://www.stetsports.com/2008/12/16/di ... -jim-zorn/

StetSports.com wrote:Zorn definitely deserves more than another chance. Seven wins any other way this season and most Redskins fans would be saying how the year went better than expected.

http://www.stetsports.com/2008/12/16/di ... -jim-zorn/

Welcome newbie... Are you a Skins Fan or just interjecting?

tribeofjudah wrote:

StetSports.com wrote:Zorn definitely deserves more than another chance. Seven wins any other way this season and most Redskins fans would be saying how the year went better than expected.

http://www.stetsports.com/2008/12/16/di ... -jim-zorn/

Welcome newbie... Are you a Skins Fan or just interjecting?

I actually despise the Skins, but I'm from the area and like many of the players and coaches.

I feel bad because if they had the right ownership, the Skins could excel like the Patriots or the Giants. Instead, they just flounder for free agents and more money from supporters.

StetSports.com wrote:

tribeofjudah wrote:

StetSports.com wrote:Zorn definitely deserves more than another chance. Seven wins any other way this season and most Redskins fans would be saying how the year went better than expected.

http://www.stetsports.com/2008/12/16/di ... -jim-zorn/

Welcome newbie... Are you a Skins Fan or just interjecting?

I actually despise the Skins, but I'm from the area and like many of the players and coaches.

I feel bad because if they had the right ownership, the Skins could excel like the Patriots or the Giants. Instead, they just flounder for free agents and more money from supporters.

Ahhhh the good ole' FREE ENTERPRISE FOR THE DANNY........

Here is Wilbon's take:

But a 6-2 start sent people, even men associated with the team, way past hopeful and straight to expectant. The talk midway through the season was whether Jason Campbell or Clinton Portis would get more votes for league MVP; whether Zorn was doing better than rookie coaches Mike Smith, John Harbaugh and Tony Sparano; whether the Redskins would make the playoffs as a wild-card or division winner. There was no end to the giddiness after eight games.

Except now, approaching the final two games of the season, 7-7 seems disastrous, like the first half was little more than a cruel tease. The same folks who were so in love with Campbell and Zorn want the former benched and the latter fired. Most of the opinions lean in the favor of something dramatic, something bold. People are angry because once again, the Washington Redskins are about to get an early jump on the offseason.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03169.html

I say blow him out. He went 6-2 starting off and went down the tubes. He lost to the Rams and Bengals. His play calling is so John Madden. I wished i played ball because Zorn and Campbell will make me look like Deion Sanders with the predictable playcalling. Look i know i'm gonna get bashed but he really wasn't our first second third or fourth choice so really it was a low risk high reward. Lets restart the Cowher watch again.

prinzeofmoval wrote:I say blow him out. He went 6-2 starting off and went down the tubes. He lost to the Rams and Bengals. His play calling is so John Madden. I wished i played ball because Zorn and Campbell will make me look like Deion Sanders with the predictable playcalling. Look i know i'm gonna get bashed but he really wasn't our first second third or fourth choice so really it was a low risk high reward. Lets restart the Cowher watch again.

1) You'd look like a fool on an NFL field, I don't care who's playing

2) Our choice? You got to be part of the hiring process? How do you know who the first choice was?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

DEHog wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:I support Zorn. I believe in him. But I could never trust the Danny to give him the time he needs to succeed

Why? Snyder's fired exactly ONE coach that he hired, the horses posterior Marty, and that was seven years ago if I did my math right. And not only did he not hire Norv, who was a heck of a nice guy, but you can't seriously think he hadn't had a fair chance to succeed. So what it your statement Danny won't give Zorn time based on exactly?

What?? By retaining Norv as HC he did "hire" him. He fired Marty and are you saying he didn't fire SS??? Well SS got paid when he left??

And I have it from a very good source (Ex NFL Head Coach) that Snyder did indeed renege on his promise to GW to be the HC.

I don't blindly dislike DS..It is based on what I see and what I know about him!!

You're going to have to prove he fired SS and that GW was "promised" the job, in lieu of proof, or even evidence...

On Norv, no, he didn't hire him. And even if you want to count it that he did because you hate him and will concede nothing, the point I was refuting was that Snyder wouldn't give Zorn a chance, so unless you're arguing that Norv DIDN'T get a chance, your point he hired Norv is sort of a so what even if it is accepted, which I don't.

I hate no one and you will never see a post to that effect ...don't put words in my mouth...when I talk about DS it about how he runs the team.


You believe what you want I'll believe what I want...but for me it doesn't get more credible than an NFL coach who coached with Willains and now lives in Williams' home town and plays golf with him all offseason.

Spin it anyway you want but you can not deny the fact that no coach out side of Gibbs has coached more than 2 years!! That was my point nothing else.

Ev'rybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism
Isn't it the most
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance

Ev'rybody's talking about
Ministers, Sinisters, Banisters and canisters,
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,
And bye bye, bye byes.
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance

Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, Evolution, Mastication, Flagelolation, Regulations.
Integrations, Meditations, United Nations, Congratulations
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance

Oh Let's stick to it
Ev'rybody's talking about
John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Rosemary, Tommy smothers, Bob Dylan,
Tommy Cooper, Derek Tayor, Norman Mailer, Alan Ginsberg, Hare Krishna,
Hare Krishna
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance
All we are saying is give Zorn a chance