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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:41 pm
by VetSkinsFan
My
:
JC will not succeed in this system. He's more of a downfield thrower. These quick reads are not where he will excel.
The bigger problem is that JC is not suited to this system and JZ's trying to convert him. I believe that he can succeed in a more vertical game, but this system, this O-Coord will not happen. He releases too slow. From the limited action I saw, I believe that as some said earlier in the year, Brennan is JZ's man. He scrambles and makes things happen. JZ said that Brennan was wild, he never put down his talent or potential. I believe that we see Brennan in the next two years.
As for this season? If Zorn doesn't start going for the throat THIS WEEK, we're thru. The NFC north is taken names, and they might take our spot of last year with both Wild Card positions.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:20 pm
by Bob 0119
I think JC's biggest problem is that he can't read the play. He won't throw to reciever unless he sees the reciever is open.
I don't remember a play where I think "how did he find that guy."
Most of those plays call for the reciever to cut inside and find the ball already in the air.
He either locks into the primary reciever, or checks down too quickly and doesn't let the play develop. We did see more play action yesterday, and Jason did use the pump-fake a couple of times, but there were a lot of times where the ball was dropped becuase the recieve had to turn around for it, or it was too high.
Sure it's easy to blame the recievers for not getting past the first down marker on third down, but Jason has to take a hit on some of those as well.
ey had to turn around and dive back to get the ball a yard short of the marker.
I don't necessarily think Todd's the answer either, but I don't think 10-6 is going to get us to the play-offs, and if things keep on like they are now, I don't see us doing any better than 9-7.
Maybe it is time to give Colt a serious look as he may be our QB of the future.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:22 pm
by VetSkinsFan
Bob 0119 wrote:I think JC's biggest problem is that he can't read the play. He won't throw to reciever unless he sees the reciever is open.
I don't remember a play where I think "how did he find that guy."
Most of those plays call for the reciever to cut inside and find the ball already in the air.
He either locks into the primary reciever, or checks down too quickly and doesn't let the play develop. We did see more play action yesterday, and Jason did use the pump-fake a couple of times, but there were a lot of times where the ball was dropped becuase the recieve had to turn around for it, or it was too high.
Good insight Bob
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:29 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
VetSkinsFan wrote:Bob 0119 wrote:I think JC's biggest problem is that he can't read the play. He won't throw to reciever unless he sees the reciever is open.
I don't remember a play where I think "how did he find that guy."
Most of those plays call for the reciever to cut inside and find the ball already in the air.
He either locks into the primary reciever, or checks down too quickly and doesn't let the play develop. We did see more play action yesterday, and Jason did use the pump-fake a couple of times, but there were a lot of times where the ball was dropped becuase the recieve had to turn around for it, or it was too high.
Good insight Bob
I agree 100%
Now is that ability or is it simply trust? To me, that's something that comes with experience in an offense. But it's also something that we should be seeing more of at this stage of the year.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:41 pm
by TeeterSalad
Bob 0119 wrote:I think JC's biggest problem is that he can't read the play. He won't throw to reciever unless he sees the reciever is open.
I don't remember a play where I think "how did he find that guy."
Most of those plays call for the reciever to cut inside and find the ball already in the air.
He either locks into the primary reciever, or checks down too quickly and doesn't let the play develop. We did see more play action yesterday, and Jason did use the pump-fake a couple of times, but there were a lot of times where the ball was dropped becuase the recieve had to turn around for it, or it was too high.
Sure it's easy to blame the recievers for not getting past the first down marker on third down, but Jason has to take a hit on some of those as well.
ey had to turn around and dive back to get the ball a yard short of the marker.
I don't necessarily think Todd's the answer either, but I don't think 10-6 is going to get us to the play-offs, and if things keep on like they are now, I don't see us doing any better than 9-7.
Maybe it is time to give Colt a serious look as he may be our QB of the future.
His accuracy was really awful yesterday, our receivers didn't have a chance for YAC most of the time. Even screen passes and quick slants were not thrown well, JC looked scared/flustered all day, absolutely not the same poise that we've seen in earlier weeks. Brennan moves the pocket exceptionally well, maybe too well sometimes, im sure he will throw more picks then JC, but then again who doesn't. He would throw more TD's, thats for sure.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:51 pm
by Skinna Mob
I love you all, but some of you crack me up also. I guess that's why they call it "Monday Morning Quarterback".
That double edge sword is a mother...when they win ..."Campbell is the QB of the future..." When they loose "stick a fork in him he's done..."
Its a TEAM game gentlemen.
Now when Zorn states that Campbell isnt upright long enough to allow long passing plays develop, who's at fault?
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:54 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Skinna Mob wrote:Now when Zorn states that Campbell isnt upright long enough to allow long passing plays develop, who's at fault?
So when he is upright long enough to throw it, he's gets picked off.
That'll prove em wrong!
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:59 pm
by Skinna Mob
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Skinna Mob wrote:Now when Zorn states that Campbell isnt upright long enough to allow long passing plays develop, who's at fault?
So when he is upright long enough to throw it, he's gets picked off.
That'll prove em wrong!
A little negative today aren't we CLL. Its OK I am disappointed also...
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:09 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Skinna Mob wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:Skinna Mob wrote:Now when Zorn states that Campbell isnt upright long enough to allow long passing plays develop, who's at fault?
So when he is upright long enough to throw it, he's gets picked off.
That'll prove em wrong!
A little negative today aren't we CLL. Its OK I am disappointed also...
Eh, yeah but I'm tired of this o-line talk getting overhyped. Yes, it's true that the line isn't great but Jason does get ample time to throw the ball. He's not getting it done when he has time. The WR's aren't getting it done when Jason is getting done. So basically they're all sucking at different times.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:09 pm
by LORD GIBBS
Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:18 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little
That post makes absolute zero sense.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:36 pm
by John Manfreda
I would give JC the rest of the season, but if he keeps playing like he has recently, than lets bring in someone else or at least competition for the no.1 job next season. After this season JC has had his chances. But if he keeps playing like he does now, than I would say Matt Cassel would be something to look into next season, or see who else is available. I am not opposed to starting Collins now, I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't hit the panic button yet, we beat Baltimore than we got the Bungels, Eagles, and 49ers, all very winnable games. Remember there is still some football to be played. All I have to say is this team better start picking up its game, not just JC, the line, Wr's, and defense especially Taylor. Baltimore is a must win, in fact we need to win out in my opinion.
My
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:38 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
John Manfreda wrote: than I would say Matt Cassel would be something to look into next season,
*plugs nose
What is that smell?
*looks at fan
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:51 pm
by SkinsFreak
I don't, in any way, believe JC should be benched and I don't think he should shoulder all the blame. The o-line is a disaster and should account for far more blame at this point. A QB cannot have any level of success without the components around him playing well and providing protection. Has JC made mistakes? Sure, all players do.
I'm not opposed to giving Colt a look somewhere done the line, but Collins is not the answer. I'm not giving up on JC just yet and I seriously doubt the Skins will either. Zorn knows QB's, so if he says JC is our best option, then that's the way it will be.
Here's a piece that includes some "professional" opinions...
For Campbell, the problem going back to his college days at Auburn has been regular coaching and offensive-system changes. It happened again this season when Jim Zorn took over for the retired Joe Gibbs as the Redskins' coach and installed a version of a West Coast passing offense while keeping the running offense from the Gibbs regime intact.
Campbell has demonstrated he can be a highly effective complementary quarterback. He has limited his mistakes, throwing only three interceptions all season, while the Redskins have leaned on tailback Clinton Portis, the league's leading rusher and a most valuable player candidate. But Campbell has thrown a relatively modest 10 touchdown passes, eight fewer than Manning.
That is interpreted to mean he's yet to prove he can go out and win games on his own when Portis and the running game aren't doing the heavy lifting. And the disclaimer of being a "young" quarterback might not last too much longer. Campbell turns 27 in a month. Few still refer to Manning, who turns 28 in January, as a young quarterback. Established is more like it.
"The one common thread you have with all of them, and now with Jason, is that they all have strong running games around them," Theismann said in comparing Campbell to Manning, Roethlisberger and Rivers. "Then comes the passing game. Eli has Plaxico [Burress]. He has Kevin Boss, who's becoming a very viable tight end. They make plays down the field in the passing game. It's the same way with the Steelers and the Chargers. The difference between their offenses and the Redskins' offense is that the Redskins, at this point, don't make plays down the field.
"The offensive line played pretty well [last Sunday], but the previous two weeks, it didn't play very well. That's part of it. As a quarterback, your play is partly a function of the circumstances around you. I have no doubt that Jim Zorn is the perfect coach for Jason. Eli is in his second year with Kevin Gilbride as his offensive coordinator. Next year, you'll see this development with Jason and the Redskins' passing game down the field. For this football team to move to the next level, that's a mandatory element."
The Redskins tried to give Campbell additional help in last spring's NFL draft by taking wide receivers Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas and tight end Fred Davis in the second round. But none has been a major contributor yet, and Walker said it's clear to him the Redskins still need to find more playmakers to put around Campbell in their passing game.
"He's a second-year starter," Walker said. "He's still struggling to learn a new system, a new coach, new parts. Jason's on an island, and he's trying to get more supplies. He doesn't have enough options. This offense doesn't have enough weapons. If he gets them, he'll be fine. There's a reason why this offense is where it's at. They've maxed out on the running game. They can get better in the passing game."
Yet the prevailing opinion appears to be the Redskins are fine at quarterback and all could be fine with time and the necessary assistance.
"I do think he'll get there," Reeves said. "I've watched him since his last year in college, and I've always been impressed with him. I was there last year for a preseason game. I came out before the ballgame and watched him throw. I talked to [former Redskins quarterbacks coach] Bill Lazor, who had been on my staff, and he was talking about how smart he was and how he's able to pick right up on what you're doing.
"You watch him throw, and you can see he has the accuracy, and his delivery is very good. You have to like his size and his movement. His leadership skills seem to be very good. He has poise under pressure. I would say the Redskins are set at that position, and they should focus on building the supporting cast around him. . . . There are a lot of different systems. But what is comes down to is, he can make all the throws. That's what you look for."
Link
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:52 pm
by SkinsFreak
jbxrocker23 wrote:I feel that benching Jason now would be a mistake. Todd Collins is a serviceable backup, but I'm a firm believer that his late season success last year came from an extensive knowledge of the offensive system rather than his physical abilities and decision making abilities. More than one time, Collins knew where the receiver would be prior to his getting there, and thus could pick apart defenses easier.
Jason has been hurt a lot by his receivers this year. There have been quite a few drops recently. Santana Moss is the only legitimate deep threat, and if you double cover him he's virtually out of the game due to his size.
ey is a good option, but other than that there is no one. ARE has no business being at the #2 spot, and recently it seems like he can be counted on for dropping half of what is thrown at him (he's the 50/50 guy). Thrash shouldn't be counted on to catch much either. Thomas and Kelly are too new, and were very slow to start, but I see them improving.
Take away the 'skins running game, and you have a decent QB with only 1 legitimate WR to target on the field. Keep Moss and
ey locked down, sell out to stop the run, and you have the recipe for beating the 'skins.
Let's not forget that this is a first year head coach, a first year offensive coordinator, and the first year in a new offensive system. Jason needs to spend more time learning the system as the new receivers mature, and benching him now (in my opinion) would hurt more than help.
I'm not saying that we can't have a late season surge, a few miracles, and a late playoff run, It's going to take everyone playing as a complete team, and a lot more out of the rookies. However, If that doesn't happen, let Jason finish out the year, beef up the lines during the off season (please dear god), and let's go into next season with a better understanding of the system, and a year of experience notched in the belt.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:05 pm
by skinsfan#33
Chris Luva Luva wrote:A quicker release, ie. Todd (although Im not saying we should), would help that.
Jason cannot throw the quick slant...
Yeah, what is the deal with that! He is the only QB I have ever seen that has a hard time throwing a quick slants. It's like he sets and waits to see how the defense is reacting and then throws the pass either low or behind the WR.
All you should have to look at on a quick slant is if the WR got inside position, then throw the darn ball! Hitting the WR in stride turns a 5-8 yard play into a big play.
If I was JZ, this offseason, I would make JC throw a few hundred (properly thrown) quick slants to all of his WRs.
It pains me to see rookie QBs that are playing better than Campbell and we will see one of those rookies next week.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:07 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Jason never has and never will have a quick release. That throw needs to be canned.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:18 pm
by skinsfan#33
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason never has and never will have a quick release. That throw needs to be canned.
Isn't that throw the the staple of the WCO? If he can't throw that pass you have two choices:
- you don't run the WCO
- you replace Campbell
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:19 pm
by Skinna Mob
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Jason never has and never will have a quick release. That throw needs to be canned.
CLL you are on FYA today. Not even messing with you.
But seriously why does Zorn always call running plays on 1st down? Its like groundhog day when I am watching the offense.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:35 pm
by die cowboys die
John Manfreda wrote:I would give JC the rest of the season, but if he keeps playing like he has recently, than lets bring in someone else or at least competition for the no.1 job next season. After this season JC has had his chances. But if he keeps playing like he does now, than I would say Matt Cassel would be something to look into next season...
does Matt Cassel come in a package deal with Randy Moss, Wes Welker, and the Patriots O-line and coaching staff? because you realize, of course, that it is absolutely
impossible to gauge how good any QB would be in real life when the only film you have of him involves him filling in for Brady in that offense, with one of the most potent surrounding casts in history.
**("real life" being defined as: "a team with a mediocre pass-blocking O-line and a mediocre group of WRs").
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:55 pm
by riggofan
I seriously cannot believe after that loss that we're talking about replacing the QB. How many dropped passes did the WRs have yesterday?
You guys on this board are way too smart to start blaming this all on Campbell.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:04 pm
by VetSkinsFan
riggofan wrote:I seriously cannot believe after that loss that we're talking about replacing the QB. How many dropped passes did the WRs have yesterday?
You guys on this board are way too smart to start blaming this all on Campbell.
There is(are) some element(s) of the Redskins offense that is not progressing in this new scheme. We all have our own theories, but the o-line isn't the only thing that ain't working to 100% capacity here.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:21 pm
by PulpExposure
VetSkinsFan wrote:riggofan wrote:I seriously cannot believe after that loss that we're talking about replacing the QB. How many dropped passes did the WRs have yesterday?
You guys on this board are way too smart to start blaming this all on Campbell.
There is(are) some element(s) of the Redskins offense that is not progressing in this new scheme. We all have our own theories, but the o-line isn't the only thing that ain't working to 100% capacity here.
Nope. I've been a big Campbell supporter, but he's clearly not playing great. The offensive line, and the WRs are not playing well, either, so I'm not sure how much is QB and how much is just the offense not working.
It's very easy to say it's the QB's fault, but it's not the QB who is dropping passes, or letting the pass-rush through virtually unblocked.
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:28 pm
by LORD GIBBS
Chris Luva Luva wrote:LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little
That post makes absolute zero sense.
READ IT AGAIN ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:29 pm
by PulpExposure
LORD GIBBS wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:LORD GIBBS wrote:Here We Go with this crap Jason Give us the best chance to win so just drop the QB switch crap we need to stop the run to open up the pass and pass to open up the run all teams know we run so lets mix it up a little
That post makes absolute zero sense.
READ IT AGAIN ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE
You really don't like punctuation, do you?