The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

1niksder wrote:

GSPODS wrote:In any case or event, this depth chart seems like it's not even remotely close to accurate. Let's hope it isn't, otherwise we could be in for one very long season as Redskins fans.

I read somewhere that Taylor and Carter have both spent time lined up on the right with the other on the left. This would give OC even more headaches not knowing where the two of them will be lined up on any given play.

Moving everyone around would be the intelligent thing to do for several reasons. First of all, it is impossible to double team anyone if you don't know which gap to double team. Secondly, it is always impossible to double team two different players without leaving someone unblocked.
Third, offensive tackles wear down faster if they have to block both power and speed rushers. Fourth, teams can't call runs or passes at will with the knowledge they will work all game long, like New England did against the Redskins last season. Fifth, players stay fresh longer if their roles are situational. My final reason has nothing to do with practicality.

I want to see not only Jason Taylor and Andre Carter but everyone else coming from all over the field. Both Taylor and Carter can drop into zone coverage effectively so the pass rush should improve immensely from not only the front four but also from the linebackers and the secondary. I see a ton of double stunts in the Redskins future this season, with the defensive tackles occupying the offensive tackles, and both defensive ends converging on the offensive center.

This has the potential to be something special.

Do some of you guys know how to read a depth chart? ARE is the #2 WR.. I think some of you are getting it mixed up by 2nd string being behind the starter. For example, Trash is behind Moss doesn't mean he's the #2 WR, it only means that he's coming off the bench if Moss goes down since ARE is already in the game. If Trash goes down, Kelly comes in. Judging by the depth chart, it's exactly the way it should be. What are ya'll really talking about here? Now if you wanna question it, let's question Kedric backing up Montgomery and not the other way around. Besides Montgomery being hurt, Kedric has shown an increase in speed during the training camp so far and yes, I know it's only training camp.

Simply put, the depth chart is the way it should be but it'll be fine tuned and we'll probably see the backup WRs changed around a bit.

USAFSkinFan wrote:Am I missing something? I always hoped they'd start JT at RDE... that's what he's played his whole career... Only problem I have with the depth chart is Frost is still on it, and Rogers has to prove himself before he starts in front of Smoot...

I think its more the fact that Carter would get killed playing strong side. I think Taylor can probably handle it a little better.

langleyparkjoe wrote:Do some of you guys know how to read a depth chart? ARE is the #2 WR.. I think some of you are getting it mixed up by 2nd string being behind the starter. For example, Trash is behind Moss doesn't mean he's the #2 WR, it only means that he's coming off the bench if Moss goes down since ARE is already in the game. If Trash goes down, Kelly comes in. Judging by the depth chart, it's exactly the way it should be. What are ya'll really talking about here? Now if you wanna question it, let's question Kedric backing up Montgomery and not the other way around. Besides Montgomery being hurt, Kedric has shown an increase in speed during the training camp so far and yes, I know it's only training camp.

Simply put, the depth chart is the way it should be but it'll be fine tuned and we'll probably see the backup WRs changed around a bit.

ARE is a 1st string wideout.... look at the chart again PEOPLE!

OFFENSE Depth Chart
Position 1st String 2nd String 3rd String
WR 89 - Santana Moss 83 - James Thrash 12 - Malcolm Kelly
LT 60 - Chris Samuels 74 - Stephon Heyer 63 - Tavares Washington
LG 66 - Pete Kendall 75 - Chad Rinehart
C 61 - Casey Rabach 72 - Andrew Crummey
RG 77 - Randy Thomas 69 - Jason Fabini 78 - Fred Matua
RT 76 - Jon Jansen 71 - Todd Wade 68 - Justin Geisinger
TE 47 - Chris ey 87 - Todd Yoder 86 - Fred Davis
WR 82 - Antwaan Randle El 11 - Devin Thomas 19 - Anthony Mix
QB 17 - Jason Campbell 15 - Todd Collins 5 - Colt Brennan
FB 45 - Mike Sellers 36 - Nehemiah Broughton
RB 26 - Clinton Portis 46 - Ladell Betts 31 - Rock Cartwright

One Slight Problem:
This is a base WCO:



It looks like more than a two receiver formation. In fact, it looks like a five receiver formation. Three of the five are wide receivers.

Say what you will about this being an early chart and all such likewise comforting sentiments, I say it's a very bad sign that Kelly is behind Thrash and Davis beyond Yoder, and it doesn't make me happy to see where Thomas is either. We need undeniable studs as those positions and if they're not undeniable studs, we're in trouble.

I think there is a reluctance to place rookies ahead of vets at this point. I'm sure things will change.

yupchagee wrote:I think there is a reluctance to place rookies ahead of vets at this point. I'm sure things will change.

I think depth charts are useless as tits on a bull even when the season starts, except for those who play in fantasy leagues. The reality of depth charts is that a team is always one play away from a change. I doubt they stop to change the depth chart for injuries or non-performance issues in the middle of games. I'm almost positive they wait until after the games are over at a minimum. I also doubt they change the chart when they decide to pull that five receiver gadget play out once a game.

At the same time, I can guarantee that no one's job is a lock at the receiver position if you ask Jim Zorn. Moss, Randle El, Thrash are Gibbs leftovers. Mix, McMullen, Toler are career backups who haven't proven anything more than special teams play. Thomas, Kelly and Davis are draft picks who have proven even less than the career backups.

I won't be surprised at all if the wide receivers change every other play or every other series. Santana Moss is probably the only safe bet as a regular starter. There's no reasonable way of thinking whoever of Thrash, Randle El, Thomas, Kelly, Mix, McMullen, Toler the team keeps will sit on the bench all season, or even that any one receiver will play more than any other receiver until someone proves something on the field when it matters.

GSPODS wrote:

yupchagee wrote:I think there is a reluctance to place rookies ahead of vets at this point. I'm sure things will change.

I think depth charts are useless as tits on a bull even when the season starts, except for those who play in fantasy leagues. The reality of depth charts is that a team is always one play away from a change. I doubt they stop to change the depth chart for injuries or non-performance issues in the middle of games. I'm almost positive they wait until after the games are over at a minimum. I also doubt they change the chart when they decide to pull that five receiver gadget play out once a game.

At the same time, I can guarantee that no one's job is a lock at the receiver position if you ask Jim Zorn. Moss, Randle El, Thrash are Gibbs leftovers. Mix, McMullen, Toler are career backups who haven't proven anything more than special teams play. Thomas, Kelly and Davis are draft picks who have proven even less than the career backups.

I won't be surprised at all if the wide receivers change every other play or every other series. Santana Moss is probably the only safe bet as a regular starter. There's no reasonable way of thinking whoever of Thrash, Randle El, Thomas, Kelly, Mix, McMullen, Toler the team keeps will sit on the bench all season, or even that any one receiver will play more than any other receiver until someone proves something on the field when it matters.

thank you for your .....

GSPODS wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

GSPODS wrote:Anyone else notice Jason Taylor is listed at RIGHT defensive End? And Andre Carter is listed at LEFT defensive end?

Still think this depth chart is accurate?

It's on the internet. Are you suggesting that there is something wrong posted on the internet?

I'm suggesting that this depth chart had better not be correct.
That would be the single-most assinine thing the Redskins could do.
You don't take a 34 year old pass rusher and put him on the strong side against the left tackle and the tight end, unless you don't care if he survives the season, or if he actually does what you paid him for, which is to rush the passer.

Um, if Taylor is lining up at RDE then he isn't on the strong side. The LDE (based on the depth chart that would be Carter) lines up on the strong side. The tight end is usually lined up on the right side of the offensive line (that would be the left side of the defense) so that is the strong side of the field. You've got it backwards.

RCB 22 - Carlos Rogers 27 - Fred Smoot 20 - Justin Tryon

This would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Um, if Taylor is lining up at RDE then he isn't on the strong side. The LDE (based on the depth chart that would be Carter) lines up on the strong side. The tight end is usually lined up on the right side of the offensive line (that would be the left side of the defense) so that is the strong side of the field. You've got it backwards.

He didn't get it backwards.... he'll say he meant something else

CanesSkins26 wrote:

RCB 22 - Carlos Rogers 27 - Fred Smoot 20 - Justin Tryon

This would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

Rogers is ahead of schedule and has actually been on the practice field, but I agree at this point he shouldn't be ahead on the depth chart.

yupchagee wrote:I think there is a reluctance to place rookies ahead of vets at this point. I'm sure things will change.

True, then take into account that Kelly and Thomas have both been nicked up and avis has only been on time for a week now.

I think depth charts are useless as tits on a bull

You mean udders on a bull- "udderly" useless

again...

PRESEASON BEFORE THE HALL OF FAME GAME DEPTH CHART. we can talk about the difference between LDE and RDE all we want, and wonder endlessly why Carlos Rogers is on the depth chart at all, but in all reality, its going to go for naught because unlike american idol, our votes don't count this time, and i'm pretty sure the guys who are making the decsions are knowledgable enough and qualified to do it. let it be.

skinsfano28 wrote:again...

PRESEASON BEFORE THE HALL OF FAME GAME DEPTH CHART. we can talk about the difference between LDE and RDE all we want, and wonder endlessly why Carlos Rogers is on the depth chart at all, but in all reality, its going to go for naught because unlike american idol, our votes don't count this time, and i'm pretty sure the guys who are making the decsions are knowledgable enough and qualified to do it. let it be.

Are you trying to ruin people's fun?

1niksder wrote:[his would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

Rogers is ahead of schedule and has actually been on the practice field, but I agree at this point he shouldn't be ahead on the depth chart.[/quote]

Prior to his injury Rogers was a good CB, now he is a good CB coming off an injury that typically takes 1-1.5 years to completely heal and get back up to full speed. He won't be at the year mark until November.

At his best he isn't as good as Smoot played last year! Barring injury, I can't see Rogers passing up Smoot. He just isn't as good as him.

And for all of you freaking out over the WR depth chart, Zorn has been praising Thrash and he said on TV that Thrash is the #3 WR behind Moss and ARE. From everything I have been hearing, this might be a huge year for ARE and Kelly seams to be ahead of Thomas.

Will all of these guys play - sure. Everything will shake out on the feild. the three most productive guys will play the most.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:[his would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

Rogers is ahead of schedule and has actually been on the practice field, but I agree at this point he shouldn't be ahead on the depth chart.

Prior to his injury Rogers was a good CB, now he is a good CB coming off an injury that typically takes 1-1.5 years to completely heal and get back up to full speed. He won't be at the year mark until November.

At his best he isn't as good as Smoot played last year! Barring injury, I can't see Rogers passing up Smoot. He just isn't as good as him.

And for all of you freaking out over the WR depth chart, Zorn has been praising Thrash and he said on TV that Thrash is the #3 WR behind Moss and ARE. From everything I have been hearing, this might be a huge year for ARE and Kelly seams to be ahead of Thomas.

Will all of these guys play - sure. Everything will shake out on the feild. the three most productive guys will play the most.[/QUOTE]All comparisons aside: that WCO passing tree resembles the Fun n Gun plays of Spurrier.

Where the heck are all the blockers???? I´m to seeing at least one TE and a WR to help with blocking. Hope Campbell has a quick release...

El Mexican wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:[his would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

Rogers is ahead of schedule and has actually been on the practice field, but I agree at this point he shouldn't be ahead on the depth chart.

Prior to his injury Rogers was a good CB, now he is a good CB coming off an injury that typically takes 1-1.5 years to completely heal and get back up to full speed. He won't be at the year mark until November.

At his best he isn't as good as Smoot played last year! Barring injury, I can't see Rogers passing up Smoot. He just isn't as good as him.

And for all of you freaking out over the WR depth chart, Zorn has been praising Thrash and he said on TV that Thrash is the #3 WR behind Moss and ARE. From everything I have been hearing, this might be a huge year for ARE and Kelly seams to be ahead of Thomas.

Will all of these guys play - sure. Everything will shake out on the feild. the three most productive guys will play the most.

All comparisons aside: that WCO passing tree resembles the Fun n Gun plays of Spurrier.

Where the heck are all the blockers???? I´m to seeing at least one TE and a WR to help with blocking. Hope Campbell has a quick release...[/quote]

Prior to his injury Rogers was a good CB

This is where you lost me. I've never seen Rogers as more than adequate and quite inconsistant.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

1niksder wrote:[his would be stupid if true. Rogers can't even practice yet and Smoot was playing great ball at the end of last season.

Rogers is ahead of schedule and has actually been on the practice field, but I agree at this point he shouldn't be ahead on the depth chart.

Prior to his injury Rogers was a good CB, now he is a good CB coming off an injury that typically takes 1-1.5 years to completely heal and get back up to full speed. He won't be at the year mark until November.

At his best he isn't as good as Smoot played last year! Barring injury, I can't see Rogers passing up Smoot. He just isn't as good as him.

And for all of you freaking out over the WR depth chart, Zorn has been praising Thrash and he said on TV that Thrash is the #3 WR behind Moss and ARE. From everything I have been hearing, this might be a huge year for ARE and Kelly seams to be ahead of Thomas.

Will all of these guys play - sure. Everything will shake out on the feild. the three most productive guys will play the most.

[/quote]



I think this depth chart could partly be to show what the coaches want to show.

If they think Kelly needs to be pushed, put him last on the chart and let him know he needs to work harder.


Then there is Carlos. He was the starter, no question. He was much improved before he got hurt. You have a young guy that got hurt, and Smoot took his place.

How is that different than JC getting hurt, and Collins playing good in his place?

Carlos is not the starter right now, ONLY because of injury. He started the season off to a great start, and he actually caught an INT. I think we were all pleasantly surprised by that one. Had he not got hurt, Smoot would not have started and would not have had that kind of year. That may be some of the factors as to why he's listed first on the depth chart.

You take a young guy that's worked as hard as he has, and made much improvement in the last off-season. Then tell him he lost his job, only because he got hurt. That would help his confidence.

I'm not saying I think Carlos is better than Smoot, IMO its close.

You have to look at when he got hurt, not before or how long it took Carlos to get there. At that time, he was playing GREAT. Then Smoot came in and Played GREAT.

So, GREAT is equal to GREAT. If they are both equal, you have to give it back to the orginal starter. Unless, proven otherwise in this years camp or pre-season or somthing.

GSPODS, that formation isn't the traditional WCO, it's more like the Lions Run and Shoot.

WCO, as run by Bill Walsh, is 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 FB, 1 RB, in a pro-set offense.

Even now I can recall who played where for him:

Jerry Rice, John Taylor WR1/WR2
Brent Jones TE
Roger Craig RB
Tom Rathman FB

Not 4 WRs and 1 RB.

PulpExposure wrote:GSPODS, that formation isn't the traditional WCO, it's more like the Lions Run and Shoot.

WCO, as run by Bill Walsh, is 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 FB, 1 RB, in a pro-set offense.

Even now I can recall who played where for him:

Jerry Rice, John Taylor WR1/WR2
Brent Jones TE
Roger Craig RB
Tom Rathman FB

Not 4 WRs and 1 RB.

Where on that chart do you see the circles labeled as being four wide receivers? The chart is four receivers, but not necessarily four split receivers, or four wide receivers. It could be two WR's, a TE and a Slot or Two WR's and Two TE's or Two WR's, a HB and a FB, or it could be four WR's, although that is not a base formation.

GSPODS wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:GSPODS, that formation isn't the traditional WCO, it's more like the Lions Run and Shoot.

WCO, as run by Bill Walsh, is 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 FB, 1 RB, in a pro-set offense.

Even now I can recall who played where for him:

Jerry Rice, John Taylor WR1/WR2
Brent Jones TE
Roger Craig RB
Tom Rathman FB

Not 4 WRs and 1 RB.

Where on that chart do you see the circles labeled as being four wide receivers? The chart is four receivers, but not necessarily four split receivers, or four wide receivers. It could be two WR's, a TE and a Slot or Two WR's and Two TE's or Two WR's, a HB and a FB, or it could be four WR's, although that is not a base formation.

Fine. I can't recall the Niners splitting Rathman wide, how's that? That's four receivers split wide, with 4 having deep patterns available which is bizarre if they're not WR. Sure...send your FB on a fly pattern. Good luck with that.

Like I said, classic WCO is a pro-set. Split backfield, TE in close.

Here's a better example of formations in a WCO link.

If you roll down and look at all of the formations, None of the 16 formations looks like the one you posted, with all 4 receivers split wide. It's just not a normal WCO formation.

11/16 of the formations have 2 RBs in the backfield. 14/16 have the TE up close to the formation. The only 2 formations where the TE is split wide, either there are both backs in the backfield, or the halfback is moved up similar to a h-back.

PulpExposure wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:GSPODS, that formation isn't the traditional WCO, it's more like the Lions Run and Shoot.

WCO, as run by Bill Walsh, is 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 FB, 1 RB, in a pro-set offense.

Even now I can recall who played where for him:

Jerry Rice, John Taylor WR1/WR2
Brent Jones TE
Roger Craig RB
Tom Rathman FB

Not 4 WRs and 1 RB.

Where on that chart do you see the circles labeled as being four wide receivers? The chart is four receivers, but not necessarily four split receivers, or four wide receivers. It could be two WR's, a TE and a Slot or Two WR's and Two TE's or Two WR's, a HB and a FB, or it could be four WR's, although that is not a base formation.

Fine. I can't recall the Niners splitting Rathman wide, how's that? That's four receivers split wide, with 4 having deep patterns available which is bizarre if they're not WR. Sure...send your FB on a fly pattern. Good luck with that.

Like I said, classic WCO is a pro-set. Split backfield, TE in close.

You're correct, but remember this is a blow-up of the formation, and it obviously isn't to scale. The only point of the picture was to illustrate to another member that the WCO uses more than two receivers, even if the other two receivers are the tight end and the running back, as in your Brent Jones / Roger Craig example.

GSPODS wrote:The only point of the picture was to illustrate to another member that the WCO uses more than two receivers, even if the other two receivers are the tight end and the running back, as in your Brent Jones / Roger Craig example.

Doesn't every offense, even Gibbs' max protect offense, almost always use more than 2 receivers?

Although when we went insane max protect, I recall seeing Moss and ey running around in triple coverage, which was comical.