The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

...and I saw the second Giant game up close. The Redskins trampled them. The wind and the frozen rain -- tiny ice pellets -- made it hard to throw. In fact, it made it hard to play, but the Redskins rebuilt OL out-smashed the Giants defense. What was that score?

JC will be fine so long as the WR's do their part. The O-line should be fine too, assuming they won't be as banged up as last year where they gave up 29 sacks which ranks them 13th out of 32 teams. Should expect a top 10 ranking this year from the O-line and JC's passer rating. UNLESS, Moss, ARE, D. Thomas, M. Kelly and Thrash are NOT an improvement over last years woeful WR performance. We'll see.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts?

Two words: Trent Green

That was 5 of the 13 years....

I was going to say Two words: Elvis Grbac.

The dude couldn't beat out Elvis Grbac or a 43 year old Warren Moon (backup) in the 1998, 1999, and 2000 seasons, and got phased out of Buffalo in favor of a 36 year old Doug Flutie.

Guy was tailor-made for the Al Saunders offense. I really wonder how he'll do in another system that isn't something he lived and breathed for years.

The only season where he played in a majority of games, 1997, he threw for 2367 yards, 12 TDs and 13 INTs.

He looked great in the last 4 regular season games last year, with a team where the wideouts were finally healthy (namely Santana Moss), the system fit him perfectly, and the team as a whole was on a hot streak. I'm not willing to pull anything more from it than that.

I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

Along with a complete inability to see things in context ... though I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with delusional

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

"delusional" is not politically correct. You should have said "Reality challanged".

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

It's all about getting paid. He knows he's at the last leg of his career and he wants as much security as possible. That's all there is to it.

Ramsey has no one to blame for his lame DC career other than himself. He just wasn't starting quality. Don't blame the ball coach or Gibbs. If anything blame Tulane where he played college ball and ran a shotgun run and shoot type of offense that almost always leads to failure in the pros. But at leaset he's still in the league unlike a lot of guys who play those shotgun systems. The Jets didn't want him and he's 2nd string in Denver. So it's not the Skins it's Ramsey.

IMO JC will pan out much better than Ramsey. He just needs time, experience, and recievers over 5'9''

Please let's get the season started! Enough baseball already.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

It's all about getting paid. He knows he's at the last leg of his career and he wants as much security as possible. That's all there is to it.

You may be right, but he had a similar offer from JAX and was rumored to have interest from STL. So the Skins were not the only way he could get paid and the Skins told him, if he re-signed, he would definitely be a backup to JC. So I think he was comfortable enough with Zorns offense.

This thread is a little depressing...

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

And I would say that if that's true, then posters who extrapolate greatness from consistently mediocre performances are much more so.

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

Along with a complete inability to see things in context ... though I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with delusional

Delusional? Delusional is projecting greatness, or even competence, from ability alone, and/or a mediocre track record. If we used that gauge, Patrick Ramsey was and is a fantastic QB, it's only us 'delusional' fans that consider him to be a failure here.

Let's be clear here: Jason Campbell may one day be a good, or even great QB. But anybody who assumes this to be true based on what has transpired so far is truly 'delusional'.

I guess I made the mistake of tangling with the Jason Campbell fan club, just as tangled with the Dan Snyder fan club. Funny, I thought this site was for the Washington Redskins fan club. My mistake, I guess.

old-timer wrote:

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

Along with a complete inability to see things in context ... though I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with delusional

Delusional? Delusional is projecting greatness, or even competence, from ability alone, and/or a mediocre track record. If we used that gauge, Patrick Ramsey was and is a fantastic QB, it's only us 'delusional' fans that consider him to be a failure here.

Let's be clear here: Jason Campbell may one day be a good, or even great QB. But anybody who assumes this to be true based on what has transpired so far is truly 'delusional'.

I guess I made the mistake of tangling with the Jason Campbell fan club, just as tangled with the Dan Snyder fan club. Funny, I thought this site was for the Washington Redskins fan club. My mistake, I guess.

So now, just because there are differing opinions from your own, this is no longer a Redskins site? I hear extremeskins still have openings.....

VetSkinsFan wrote:

old-timer wrote:

Fios wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

fleetus wrote:I think a QB that has been around like Collins, understands a lot more than just Saunders offense. He would not have stayed here if he didn't feel comfortable. I'm sure he would have gone to STL if all he knew was the Saunders offense. he'll be a solid backup.

I completely agree that he'll be a solid backup. I just think that there are posters who extrapolate any more than that from a 4 game stretch are delusional.

Along with a complete inability to see things in context ... though I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with delusional

Delusional? Delusional is projecting greatness, or even competence, from ability alone, and/or a mediocre track record. If we used that gauge, Patrick Ramsey was and is a fantastic QB, it's only us 'delusional' fans that consider him to be a failure here.

Let's be clear here: Jason Campbell may one day be a good, or even great QB. But anybody who assumes this to be true based on what has transpired so far is truly 'delusional'.

I guess I made the mistake of tangling with the Jason Campbell fan club, just as tangled with the Dan Snyder fan club. Funny, I thought this site was for the Washington Redskins fan club. My mistake, I guess.

So now, just because there are differing opinions from your own, this is no longer a Redskins site? I hear extremeskins still have openings.....

Actually, I think it's MY differing opinions that people have issues with. I don't think that we should have this blind support of Dan Snyder and Jason Campbell just because they happen to be associated with the Redskins. True, there's nothing we can do about either of them, but that does not mean we have to be blindly devoted to them. Some people seem to interpret criticism of either of them as disloyalty to the team. I get jumped on even when I say the obvious things, such as the fact that Collins was a better QB than Campbell last year, or that although Campbell seems to have the right tools, he is unproven as a starter. Myself, I don't think anyone is above criticism except those who have a proven track record of helping the team, and IMHO neither off these guys do. Note I did not say 'TRYING' to help the team, because I'm sure they both do their best.

old-timer wrote:Actually, I think it's MY differing opinions that people have issues with.

I think it goes both ways. People unfairly question the loyalty of others who criticize players and coaches. Then again, arguments in favor of Campbell or even Snyder are sometimes glossed over as "blind devotion."

No one is the underdog here. . .I think there's plenty of room for discussion without resorting to that kind of ethos.

Irn-Bru wrote:

old-timer wrote:Actually, I think it's MY differing opinions that people have issues with.

I think it goes both ways. People unfairly question the loyalty of others who criticize players and coaches. Then again, arguments in favor of Campbell or even Snyder are sometimes glossed over as "blind devotion."

No one is the underdog here. . .I think there's plenty of room for discussion without resorting to that kind of ethos.

Philosophically, I agree. But it's hard to believe in the good faith of posters who argue that Danny is a good owner because he tries hard, or that Vinny Cerrato is a great GM because the 49ers were great, or that Jason Campbell is a great QB because he was so good in college. This kind of reasoning just ticks me off so bad that it's hard to think straight.

old-timer wrote:Philosophically, I agree. But it's hard to believe in the good faith of posters who argue that Danny is a good owner because he tries hard, or that Vinny Cerrato is a great GM because the 49ers were great, or that Jason Campbell is a great QB because he was so good in college. This kind of reasoning just ticks me off so bad that it's hard to think straight.

Is anyone arguing this? I mean if people were, be angry. Completely reasonable of you. However, I just think you're reading way too much into things.

I mean...I think we all would love for Dan Snyder to be a great owner; I think he's getting better, but he used to be awful. He's not the worst; we could have someone who doesn't give a crap about the product on the field.

As for Cerrato, has anyone said he's a great GM?

And as for Campbell, has anyone said he's a great QB?

Please, find me those references. And as you said posters, references from multiple posters.

Or else, you're just getting angry over reading into other people's posts too much.

To be clear, since clarity may be helpful:

Dan Snyder is getting better. He's not the best owner in the NFL, but he's the one we've got, and the evidence is showing that he's gotten better than when he came into the league, fired half the organization, and started hiring over-the-hill big name players to big contracts. Instead, we've lately signed younger players, to contracts that are eminently reasonable when you look at the market today. Last year we signed 2 FAs we knew would fit our system, as they'd both played in it. That's smart...and so is not chucking money at the overpriced free agent market this year. We even kept all of our draft picks, and traded down this year. Sad to say, that little step is progress.

Vinny Cerrato had a good track record in San Fran. Here in DC he's been a scapegoat; he gets beaten down a lot by the media and the fans. I'm not sure he's responsible at all for 80% of the crap that gets flung at him; we know under Gibbs that the coaches had a huge input on Free Agent signings, but somehow, Cerrato gets trashed when a signing goes south. I can't count the number of times he got flamed on this board for signing AA, when it turns out it was Gregg Williams' pick, and according to something I read by Wilbon, Cerrato specifically was against the signing. I've also heard that Lloyd was Saunders' guy...and again Cerrato was against the signing. I'm not in love with the guy, but I think he gets far more abuse than is warranted.

As for Campbell, he's still a work in progress. However, he represents the future, and the only way a QB gets better is to actually play. Collins may have had a great 4 game stretch (and he did), but remember...he's like 800 years old. He's also never...ever...played an entire NFL season. Hell, the last time he played in more than 5 games was 1997. If we were a team with a legitimate chance to win the Superbowl now, maybe you really think about him. We're not. So...let Campbell play, and develop.

PulpExposure wrote:Vinny Cerrato had a good track record in San Fran. Here in DC he's been a scapegoat; he gets beaten down a lot by the media and the fans. I'm not sure he's responsible at all for 80% of the crap that gets flung at him; we know under Gibbs that the coaches had a huge input on Free Agent signings, but somehow, Cerrato gets trashed when a signing goes south. I can't count the number of times he got flamed on this board for signing AA, when it turns out it was Gregg Williams' pick, and according to something I read by Wilbon, Cerrato specifically was against the signing. I've also heard that Lloyd was Saunders' guy...and again Cerrato was against the signing. I'm not in love with the guy, but I think he gets far more abuse than is warranted.

This is just such a great, honest assessment of Cerrato, I just wanted to repeat it. That's what always bugged me about discussions of personnel moves made the last 4 years - we never really KNEW for sure who did what. Obviously DS wrote the checks and had final say as owner, but we also knew he mostly followed Gibbs' lead because Gibbs was the Hall of Famer, and DS adored him about as much as any fan. We also knew Gibbs had great respect for Williams and how he ran the defense, and JG took GW's input seriously on defensive player acquisition issues. Finally, Cerrato was in the mix there somewhere, although his role was never clear, but he was always tight with DS.

So amid all this confusion, 'skins fans (esp. the hard-core Gibbs disciples) took a selective credit/blame approach, depending on whether a personnel move bombed or succeeded. If the move was a bust, blame Vinny! If the move was great, Joe gets the credit! I never liked that approach, personally.

Agree with all the above (and I'm one of the ones who used to flame Cerrato for poor decisions) I do think he was a scapegoat because we didn't want to blame Joe and figured Vinny was the idiot tugging Danny's shirt sleeve.

Regardless of how much of the blame should have gone to Vinny, I will say, if he continues to operate the free agency and draft like he did THIS off-season, he will have my respect.

fleetus wrote:Regardless of how much of the blame should have gone to Vinny, I will say, if he continues to operate the free agency and draft like he did THIS off-season, he will have my respect.

Certainly has the makings of a positive trend, no? If there's a capacity to learn from past mistakes, then we can have a lot of hope for the future.

Mursilis wrote:

fleetus wrote:Regardless of how much of the blame should have gone to Vinny, I will say, if he continues to operate the free agency and draft like he did THIS off-season, he will have my respect.

Certainly has the makings of a positive trend, no? If there's a capacity to learn from past mistakes, then we can have a lot of hope for the future.

That's why I just blamed the FO in general

old-timer wrote:Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

Collins is an "obvious" better QB based on the "team record"? Oh... okay...

No one here has crowned JC as one of the greats... yet, but we have, in fact, witnessed great moments from JC. When JC was playing, all we heard about from the experts around the league and the NFL landscape were comments about his poise, talent and potential.

No doubt, JC has made some mistakes and lost some fumbles, but some are just flat out forgetting, either on purpose or by mistake (possibly due to old age... ) JC has had some brilliant moments. With all do respect, I believe some here are a bit memory-challenged.

I also believe Gibbs was holding JC back to a large degree due to Gibbs' notorious conservatism. When Collins stepped in with 4 games left in the season, we needed to win out to make the playoffs. The conservative offense Gibbs ran with JC earlier in the season was changed and opened up because we were in a must win scenario at that point. JC knew more than enough of that play book to open up the passing game, it's just that Gibbs was trying to win games with his conservative and prevent offensive philosophy earlier in the season. It's only when we absolutely needed to win did he open up the play book.

JC is a far more talented QB than Collins and any thoughts to the contrary are delusional. And if anyone thought Collins was more skilled and more talented, he would've been named the starter for next season. Jason got the nod because he's better and is our future, at least at this point.

Let this video serve as a brief reminder what folks were saying about Jason Campbell earlier in the season last year.

SkinsFreak wrote:

old-timer wrote:Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

Collins is an "obvious" better QB based on the "team record"? Oh... okay...

Uhhh...HELLOOOOOOO! Yes, it matters what the team record is when the QB is playing! Some people even think it matters a lot!

No one here has crowned JC as one of the greats... yet, but we have, in fact, witnessed great moments from JC.

Oh, we have? When?

When JC was playing, all we heard about from the experts around the league and the NFL landscape were comments about his poise, talent and potential.

With all due respect, who gives a flying fig what a bunch of 'experts around the league' say about Campbell's potential, and how good he looks at times? How long have you been watching football? How many times has this been said about variious QB's that didn't work out? Plus, there's all those people who want to say good things about him just because everyone wants to see him succeed. Gee, everything says nice things about him, and that proves something? Give me a break dude!

No doubt, JC has made some mistakes and lost some fumbles, but some are just flat out forgetting, either on purpose or by mistake (possibly due to old age... ) JC has had some brilliant moments. With all do respect, I believe some here are a bit memory-challenged.

Brilliant moments? What, a successful long completion here and there? So did Heath Shuler. So did Patrick Ramsey. JC failed a lot of times last year, just when he needed him, to make that crucial last minute completion, to bring home that last score, and this happened several times. He had his moments, but so did Heath Shuler and Michael Westbrook. There are NO teams afraid of Campbells' abilities at this point. When I talk to other teams' fans they are LAUGHING at Jason Campbell, dude. And I don't have to base my evaluations on other peoples opinions, like you do. I have the memory of many, many crucial mistakes from him last year, that cost us many games, as was reflected in his very poor starting record. Base your opinions on performance, not potential, and you might start to sound like you know what you're talking about.

I also believe Gibbs was holding JC back to a large degree due to Gibbs' notorious conservatism. When Collins stepped in with 4 games left in the season, we needed to win out to make the playoffs. The conservative offense Gibbs ran with JC earlier in the season was changed and opened up because we were in a must win scenario at that point. JC knew more than enough of that play book to open up the passing game, it's just that Gibbs was trying to win games with his conservative and prevent offensive philosophy earlier in the season. It's only when we absolutely needed to win did he open up the play book.

More pure speculation and guesswork to support your pre-determined biases.

JC is a far more talented QB than Collins and any thoughts to the contrary are delusional.

Ah, yes, the inevitable statement that all who disagree with you are delusional. Finally, we get down to the heart of the mattter. If I recall correctly, you're the same guy who was saying that sure, Snyder has sucked for the last x number of years, but THIS year he's REALLY changed, he's learned, and now he REALLY, REALLY, knows what he's doing. And we hear this EVERY OFFSEASON. Now THAT'S delusional.

And if anyone thought Collins was more skilled and more talented, he would've been named the starter for next season. Jason got the nod because he's better and is our future, at least at this point.

Or maybe it's because we have a management team that has the same poor judgement that you do, plus the pressure of paying Campbell big bucks and getting nothing for it if he's riding the bench, plus the pressure of fans like you to play Campbell whether he's ready or not because of all that potential, and how wonderful the 'NFL landscape' thinks he is.

The sad part is, Campbell MAY one day be a good, even great QB. But people like you who think you're his fans, who want to push him in before he's ready, could be just the ones to prevent that. Think about it.

SkinsFreak wrote:

old-timer wrote:Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

Collins is an "obvious" better QB based on the "team record"? Oh... okay...

No one here has crowned JC as one of the greats... yet, but we have, in fact, witnessed great moments from JC. When JC was playing, all we heard about from the experts around the league and the NFL landscape were comments about his poise, talent and potential.

No doubt, JC has made some mistakes and lost some fumbles, but some are just flat out forgetting, either on purpose or by mistake (possibly due to old age... ) JC has had some brilliant moments. With all do respect, I believe some here are a bit memory-challenged.

I also believe Gibbs was holding JC back to a large degree due to Gibbs' notorious conservatism. When Collins stepped in with 4 games left in the season, we needed to win out to make the playoffs. The conservative offense Gibbs ran with JC earlier in the season was changed and opened up because we were in a must win scenario at that point. JC knew more than enough of that play book to open up the passing game, it's just that Gibbs was trying to win games with his conservative and prevent offensive philosophy earlier in the season. It's only when we absolutely needed to win did he open up the play book.

JC is a far more talented QB than Collins and any thoughts to the contrary are delusional. And if anyone thought Collins was more skilled and more talented, he would've been named the starter for next season. Jason got the nod because he's better and is our future, at least at this point.

Let this video serve as a brief reminder what folks were saying about Jason Campbell earlier in the season last year.

JC's line didn't od jack for him that game. He was running for his life the whole time.