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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:26 pm
by GSPODS
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Countertrey wrote:they will be getting what they deserve
No, they won't. What they deserve is to die.
And, it's far more consideration than their victim got.
True and true. But consider an alternative proposal.
The Federal government sets up a "death penalty" prison. States have the option to send prisoners there who get State "death penalties" and they pay for them there. The prison is in a remote location (desert, island, whatever). There is no TV, no papers, you get no mail, no Internet, no air conditioning. If you go there unless your conviction is later overturned, you never hear from your family again and they never hear from you until it's time to deliver your dead body back to them. Maybe we could even slip in the occasional water boarding. That would be cool! Only to collect intelligence of course.
That Prison used to exist. It was called Devils Island.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:29 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
aswas71788 wrote:GSPODS has it exactly right.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:32 pm
by GSPODS
KazooSkinsFan wrote:aswas71788 wrote:GSPODS has it exactly right.
The dangerous part of that statement is duly noted.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:50 pm
by GSPODS
CanesSkins26 wrote: Reply with quote
The Prosecutor can't prove collusion or conspiracy to commit murder.
Aggravating factors are required to successfully seek the death penalty.
The Prosecutor cannot prove "Beyond A Reasonable Doubt" that the defendants entered the home with the intention of committing murder.
They don't have to show pre-mediation in this case. Florida has the felony murder rule, which allows for the death penalty in cases where a person is killed during the commission of a felony, which in this case was the burglary. Under the felony murder rule, not only can the actual killer be sentenced to death, but so can his co-conspirators, provided that they played a major rule in committing the underlying felony and acted with reckless indifference to human life. However, I think that this decision boils down to the fact that they can't seek the death penalty against the alleged shooter because he was 17 when this took place.
"The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084."
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... TM&Title=->2007->Ch0782->Section%2004#0782.04
(b) For a felony of the first degree, by a term of imprisonment not exceeding 30 years or, when specifically provided by statute, by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life imprisonment.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... Sec082.HTM
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:11 pm
by CanesSkins26
B. PRESENT SITUATION:
First Degree Felony Murder
There are two types of first degree murder. One is known as premeditated murder and the other is
known as felony murder. In Florida, first degree felony murder is the unlawful killing of a human
being when committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate,
any of the following offenses:
a. Drug trafficking offenses prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being
s. 782.04(1)(a)2., F. S.
According to the standard jury instruction, in order to find a defendant guilty of first degree felony
murder, the state must prove the following:
1. The victim is dead.
2. The death occurred as a consequence and while the defendant was engaged in the commission of one of the above list of enumerated felonies or
The death occurred as a consequence and while the defendant was attempting to commit one of the above list of enumerated felonies, or
The death occurred as a consequence of and while the defendant or an accomplice was escaping from the immediate scene of one of the above enumerated felonies.
3. The defendant was the person who actually killed the victim or
The victim was killed by a person other than the defendant but both the defendant and the person who killed the victim were principals in the commission of one of the above enumerated felonies.
See Fla. Std. Jury Instr. (Crim.) 96-97
In order to convict someone of first degree felony murder, it is not necessary for the state to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill. First degree felony murder is a capital felony, punishable by death or life imprisonment. s.s. 782.04(1), 775.082(1), F.S.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:00UKiqs99nIJ:www.flsenate.gov/data/session/2001/House/bills/analysis/pdf/2001h0375z.cpcs.pdf+florida+felony+murder&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:17 pm
by CanesSkins26
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0782-%3ESection%2004#0782.04
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:22 pm
by GSPODS
CanesSkins26 wrote:2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0782-%3ESection%2004#0782.04
Did you misread that part?
Your statute pertains to the RICO Act, which makes the crime Federal, which guarantees that if the State doesn't execute, the Feds will.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:27 pm
by CanesSkins26
GSPODS wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0782-%3ESection%2004#0782.04
Did you misread that part?
Your statute pertains to the RICO Act, which makes the crime Federal, which guarantees that if the State doesn't execute, the Feds will.
I didn't mean to include part 3. However the statute clearly states an unlawful killing perpetuated during a burglary or attempted burglary is a capital offense.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:40 pm
by Countertrey
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Countertrey wrote:they will be getting what they deserve
No, they won't. What they deserve is to die.
And, it's far more consideration than their victim got.
True and true. But consider an alternative proposal.
The Federal government sets up a "death penalty" prison. States have the option to send prisoners there who get State "death penalties" and they pay for them there. The prison is in a remote location (desert, island, whatever). There is no TV, no papers, you get no mail, no Internet, no air conditioning. If you go there unless your conviction is later overturned, you never hear from your family again and they never hear from you until it's time to deliver your dead body back to them. Maybe we could even slip in the occasional water boarding. That would be cool! Only to collect intelligence of course.
1: To be immediately struck down by a liberal Supreme Court of the future as "cruel and unusual punishment" at the first opportunity.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:42 pm
by Countertrey
GSPODS wrote:Jake wrote:redskingush wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:I live in South Florida and the story is all over the news here.
I'm not, in any way, against the death penalty, but does anyone think life in prison could be a worse punishment?
I would have to agree, Life in prison exspecially at such a young age, is definatly worse. If this kid lives until 80, thats at least 60 Plus years in prison.
And a waste of our tax dollars.
What tax dollars? There's no state tax in Florida.
So, you're suggesting that prisons are free in Florida?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:56 pm
by GSPODS
CanesSkins26 wrote:GSPODS wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0782/SEC04.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0782-%3ESection%2004#0782.04
Did you misread that part?
Your statute pertains to the RICO Act, which makes the crime Federal, which guarantees that if the State doesn't execute, the Feds will.
I didn't mean to include part 3. However the statute clearly states an unlawful killing perpetuated during a burglary or attempted burglary is a capital offense.
(6) MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES.--Mitigating circumstances shall be the following:
(a) The defendant has no significant history of prior criminal activity.
(b) The capital felony was committed while the defendant was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance.
(c) The victim was a participant in the defendant's conduct or consented to the act.
(d) The defendant was an accomplice in the capital felony committed by another person and his or her participation was relatively minor.
(e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person.
(f) The capacity of the defendant to appreciate the criminality of his or her conduct or to conform his or her conduct to the requirements of law was substantially impaired.
(g) The age of the defendant at the time of the crime.
(h) The existence of any other factors in the defendant's background that would mitigate against imposition of the death penalty.
The reason you have the wrong statute is that you are looking only at the aggravating factor, and not at the mitigating circumstance.
The Prosecutor can't prove malice aforethought, pre-meditation, conspiracy or collusion of intent to murder by all four defendants beyond a reasonable doubt. So, rather than filing a lesser included charge, the Prosecutor is simply filing the charge that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The other option is overzealous prosecution, which risks acquittal and several violations of legal ethics.
Re: SEAN'S KILLERS WONT FACE DEATH PENALTY!
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:34 pm
by absinthe1023
John Manfreda wrote:KennyKenn21 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3391604
I'm sorry but that is complete B S!!!
They took a man, a father and a superstars life! Hes never coming back!
The shooter should get it......u take a man's life, u dont deserve urs. Plain and simple.
R.I.P SEAN, YOU'LL BE MISSED FOREVER!
Looking at the crime u also have to look at intent, I think he saw a person with a knife and thought, crap. He shoot him at the leg, if he wanted to kill him he would have shoot him in the chest or head. I am not saying the ruling is right or wrong but u can't just look at it from ur point of view. U have to look at it from an unbiased point of view. Not saying law makers do, but one should look at the crime from an unbiased point of view.
The thought that the idiot who shot Sean was aiming for his legs to incapacitate him is ridiculous.
I recall that Sean was shot through a closed and locked bedroom door, and was only hit because he was standing by ready to defend his family after awakening to noise in another part of the house.
The subhuman that shot Sean wasn't aiming at Sean's legs (as if even that would be acceptable); he was just a panicked, small-time criminal who freaked out and fired through the door not knowing who or what was on the other side. He could just as easily have hit Jackie or Jackie Jr. In fact, it's pretty amazing that he ended up hitting anyone at all.
It's amazing that our laws work to protect the criminal in so many instances; you would think that bringing a gun to a crime and then firing it through a closed door while knowing that there are people on the other side would be enough to prove premeditation....
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:35 pm
by Countertrey
The Prosecutor can't prove malice aforethought, pre-meditation, conspiracy or collusion of intent to murder by all four defendants beyond a reasonable doubt. So, rather than filing a lesser included charge, the Prosecutor is simply filing the charge that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The other option is overzealous prosecution, which risks acquittal and several violations of legal ethics.
The bottom feeders of the Criminal Bar have succeeded in the complete and total obfuscation of the law, to the point that logic and reason have no bearing on the outcome, no place in the courtroom. The purpose of their profession is not truth, not justice, but victory. Their future is secure.
Each of us is perfectly aware that carrying a gun in a burglary brings with it the logical likelihood of shooting someone, providing intent and malice aforethought... if you carry a gun in the commission of a felony, you know that you may kill someone. What else could you be thinking when you decided to bring it? It's clear to all except a lawyer.
Legal ethics = oxymoron.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:59 pm
by GSPODS
Countertrey wrote:GSPODS wrote:Jake wrote:redskingush wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:I live in South Florida and the story is all over the news here.
I'm not, in any way, against the death penalty, but does anyone think life in prison could be a worse punishment?
I would have to agree, Life in prison exspecially at such a young age, is definatly worse. If this kid lives until 80, thats at least 60 Plus years in prison.
And a waste of our tax dollars.
What tax dollars? There's no state tax in Florida.
So, you're suggesting that prisons are free in Florida?
No, I'm suggesting they aren't paid for by our taxes in any case. We don't live there. Florida sales tax probably pays for them.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:42 pm
by yupchagee
The bottom feeders of the Criminal Bar have succeeded in the complete and total obfuscation of the law, to the point that logic and reason have no bearing on the outcome, no place in the courtroom. The purpose of their profession is not truth, not justice, but victory. Their future is secure.
Why do you think they are called CRIMINAL lawyers?
Criminal lawyer is the ultimate redundancy.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:45 pm
by Countertrey
What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?
One is a bottom dwelling, sewage eating scavenger...
The other is a catfish.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:47 pm
by yupchagee
Countertrey wrote:What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?
1 is a scum sucking bottom feeder. The other is a fish.
One is a bottom dwelling, sewage eating scavenger...
The other is a catfish.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:52 pm
by Wiz
Did anyone really expect justice to be done here? We live in a day and age in which you can be caught on tape committing criminal acts of all kinds and still walk free or loophole your way out of deserved justice. I'm not surprised at all, but ashamed.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:18 pm
by MossIsBoss88
Countertrey wrote:What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?
One is a bottom dwelling, sewage eating scavenger...
The other is a catfish.
Really now? that was really... creative... um, you might want to work on that because that really isn't any DIFFERENT from a catfish.
Anyways, as much as I believe justice should be served I do NOT believe that these kids should face the death penalty. On the other hand, if I saw them on the street, I would probably kill them myself. But that is different from the GOVERNMENT killing people who were MINORS at the time. Let's be serious, people. Justice is served when these kids NEVER forget what they did and how they ruined the life of a man with a special gift and his beloved family.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:32 pm
by CanesSkins26
But that is different from the GOVERNMENT killing people who were MINORS at the time.
Only one of the four was a minor at the time of this incident.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:36 pm
by MossIsBoss88
The one who actually shot him was the minor right?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:37 pm
by Countertrey
how they ruined the life of a man
That's ONE way at looking at MURDER, I suppose...
He was 17... Old enough to squeeze the trigger... old enough...
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:18 am
by HardDawg
You can't sentence a minor to death! Its that simple. I'm as angry as anyone.
Life is prison IS worse than death!!!!
RIP Sean.....
P.S. I still get choked up watching him on TIVO and YouTube. I'll miss you forever!
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:35 am
by HEROHAMO
Hello folks.
If they get the death penalty then thats the easy way out. Now if they get life then they have to endure a lifetime of pain and anguish. Then when they die they will go to hell.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:51 am
by GSPODS
Countertrey wrote:The Prosecutor can't prove malice aforethought, pre-meditation, conspiracy or collusion of intent to murder by all four defendants beyond a reasonable doubt. So, rather than filing a lesser included charge, the Prosecutor is simply filing the charge that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The other option is overzealous prosecution, which risks acquittal and several violations of legal ethics.
The bottom feeders of the Criminal Bar have succeeded in the complete and total obfuscation of the law, to the point that logic and reason have no bearing on the outcome, no place in the courtroom. The purpose of their profession is not truth, not justice, but victory. Their future is secure.
Each of us is perfectly aware that carrying a gun in a burglary brings with it the logical likelihood of shooting someone, providing intent and malice aforethought... if you carry a gun in the commission of a felony, you know that you may kill someone. What else could you be thinking when you decided to bring it? It's clear to all except a lawyer.
Legal ethics = oxymoron.
There are reasons why I am neither a Prosecutor nor a Criminal Defense attorney. I don't agree with the Penal Code as written. The problem lawyers have is Judges. It isn't that all lawyers fail to grasp the obvious, although some do. It is that lawyers have to work within the laws as written. Any attempts to skirt the law, even if those attempts are in the interest of "Justice", can result in a mistrial or a bench ruling vacating the entire case, including the sentencing.
mistrial
n. the termination of a trial before its normal conclusion because of a procedural error, statements by a witness, judge or attorney which prejudice a jury, a deadlock by a jury without reaching a verdict after lengthy deliberation (a "hung" jury), or the failure to complete a trial within the time set by the court. When such situations arise, the judge, either on his own initiative or upon the motion (request) of one of the parties will "declare a mistrial," dismiss the jury if there is one and direct that the lawsuit or criminal prosecution be set for trial again, starting from the beginning.
vacate
v. 1) for a judge to set aside or annul an order or judgment which he/she finds was improper.
Personally, I say we should immediately execute anyone convicted of any of the following crimes, or convicted of the attempt of any of the following crimes:
Trafficking offenses, Arson, Sexual battery, Robbery, Burglary, Kidnapping, Escape, Aggravated child abuse, Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult, Aircraft piracy, Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb, Carjacking, Home-invasion robbery, Aggravated stalking, Murder of another human being, Terrorism, Unlawful distribution of any controlled substance.
I could probably add a few others to the list but that is a decent start.
Think of all of the time and expense saved by only keeping these people alive through the sentencing phase.
"You are hereby sentenced to death in accordance with the Penal Code. You have 72 hours to appeal, and it had better be a damn good one. Otherwise, you are going to die a slow and painful death with the public invited to watch, photograph and film. The public is also encouraged to mock you and laugh at your expense."