The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

absinthe1023 wrote:If by "voices" you mean "fans on message boards", then you're right. The same could be said of any team in the league. Starting QBs are under the microscope, and the backup (whoever it is) always seems like a saviour to the average fan if the starter falters.

Let's wait for Brennan to get his first taste of NFL game speed and playmaking defenders in camp and preseason. Once his lack of arm strength, mobility, and leadership become apparent and the poor decisions and INTs pile up, he'll have a hard enough time cracking the roster much less being the Doug Williams to Campbell's Jay Schroeder.

I'll definitely be here to eat crow in two years if Brennan displaces Campbell via a QB controversy.
Will you be here at the end of camp for your serving of crow if Brennan is on the PS or cut outright?

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:If by "voices" you mean "fans on message boards", then you're right. The same could be said of any team in the league. Starting QBs are under the microscope, and the backup (whoever it is) always seems like a saviour to the average fan if the starter falters.

Let's wait for Brennan to get his first taste of NFL game speed and playmaking defenders in camp and preseason. Once his lack of arm strength, mobility, and leadership become apparent and the poor decisions and INTs pile up, he'll have a hard enough time cracking the roster much less being the Doug Williams to Campbell's Jay Schroeder.

I'll definitely be here to eat crow in two years if Brennan displaces Campbell via a QB controversy.
Will you be here at the end of camp for your serving of crow if Brennan is on the PS or cut outright?

I will be here. I have been here for four years or more already.

So yes I am anxious to see what will happen. I am pretty confident he will probably named the no. 2 guy in year two or maybe even starter.

brad7686 wrote:

dmwc wrote:I still say that another DE or CB or OL was a better pick

How can you say that when the only people left in those positions lacked any upside? Brennan could end up being a Pro Bowl QB. He is a prime example of what media build up or assault can do to someone's stock separate from what they do on the field.

dmwc wrote:[But back-ups dont win championships.

HEROHAMO wrote:I guarantee a QB controversy will come from us drafting Colt Brennan.

Countertrey wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:I guarantee a QB controversy will come from us drafting Colt Brennan.

Only if you think a June Jones "spread" offense translates into the NFL... History gives that one an emphatic "NO".

SkinsFreak wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:I guarantee a QB controversy will come from us drafting Colt Brennan.

Only if you think a June Jones "spread" offense translates into the NFL... History gives that one an emphatic "NO".

Well, except that are a few factors to consider. Colt won't be starting for quite some time. He will be learning under Zorn for years. Colt completed around 70% of his passes at Hawaii. Some say he is a product of the system. Well, that system only exists on paper or a chalk board. The QB has to step on the field and actually execute those passes. As Zorn said, completing 70% of your passes, at any level, is a sign of accuracy. Accuracy is an indication of the passer, not necessarily the system. If you can't throw accurately, it doesn't matter what system you play in. And besides, what percentage of college players actually learn and play in a pro style system? Very few. Colt won't be using the June Jones offense, he'll spend years learning Jimmy Z's spread offense.

Oh, btw... there won't be a QB controversy.

Countertrey wrote:There is no doubt that he is a "passer", as you have said. However, that does not equate to "He is a quarterback", much less "He is a quarterback who can run a professional offense". I suspect he can do the things Zorn wants, but the learning curve will be steep. He won't be competitive for a while.

Countertrey wrote:

SkinsFreak wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:I guarantee a QB controversy will come from us drafting Colt Brennan.

Only if you think a June Jones "spread" offense translates into the NFL... History gives that one an emphatic "NO".

Well, except that are a few factors to consider. Colt won't be starting for quite some time. He will be learning under Zorn for years. Colt completed around 70% of his passes at Hawaii. Some say he is a product of the system. Well, that system only exists on paper or a chalk board. The QB has to step on the field and actually execute those passes. As Zorn said, completing 70% of your passes, at any level, is a sign of accuracy. Accuracy is an indication of the passer, not necessarily the system. If you can't throw accurately, it doesn't matter what system you play in. And besides, what percentage of college players actually learn and play in a pro style system? Very few. Colt won't be using the June Jones offense, he'll spend years learning Jimmy Z's spread offense.

Oh, btw... there won't be a QB controversy.

Then you and I agree. I did not say he didn't have talent. I basically said that the skills he has been using don't translate to what Zorn will be asking him to do. The West Coast does not permit the luxury of sitting back, scanning the field, and selecting the best target, as does the spread. Additionally, while pro offenses tend to be more complex than their college analogs, most college offenses are at least based on pro sets, and their quarterbacks have at least a functioning grasp of their concepts.. The spread is used as a base set by no one in the NFL.

There is no doubt that he is a "passer", as you have said. However, that does not equate to "He is a quarterback", much less "He is a quarterback who can run a professional offense". I suspect he can do the things Zorn wants, but the learning curve will be steep. He won't be competitive for a while.

SkinsFreak wrote:

Countertrey wrote:There is no doubt that he is a "passer", as you have said. However, that does not equate to "He is a quarterback", much less "He is a quarterback who can run a professional offense". I suspect he can do the things Zorn wants, but the learning curve will be steep. He won't be competitive for a while.

Agreed.

If I hear Roger Goodell's voice in combination with "The Washington Redskins have traded the 21st pick in the 2008 draft, and the first round pick in the 2009 draft to the Cincinatti Bengals for the rights to Chad Johnson", then I will have to decide whether or not to jump on the "Stupid" bandwagon.

absinthe1023 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:If by "voices" you mean "fans on message boards", then you're right. The same could be said of any team in the league. Starting QBs are under the microscope, and the backup (whoever it is) always seems like a saviour to the average fan if the starter falters.

Let's wait for Brennan to get his first taste of NFL game speed and playmaking defenders in camp and preseason. Once his lack of arm strength, mobility, and leadership become apparent and the poor decisions and INTs pile up, he'll have a hard enough time cracking the roster much less being the Doug Williams to Campbell's Jay Schroeder.

I'll definitely be here to eat crow in two years if Brennan displaces Campbell via a QB controversy.
Will you be here at the end of camp for your serving of crow if Brennan is on the PS or cut outright?

I will be here. I have been here for four years or more already.

So yes I am anxious to see what will happen. I am pretty confident he will probably named the no. 2 guy in year two or maybe even starter.

It sounds like you're already hedging your bet. Being named #2 in his second year, even though it would be extremely ambitious since he'll have to outcompete other players just to make the team, does not equal a QB controversy.
A QB controversy occurs when the starter and the backup are interchanged over the course of a game or several games because one is not clearly superior to the other on a consistent basis. Brennan simply being named the backup next year (which I think is unlikely in any event) does not a QB controversy make.

P.S. If the join date under your avatar is correct, you have been here less than 4 years, not the "four years or more" that you claim. I only point this out since we're making a time-based proposition here, and I don't want you to get confused and claim that there's a QB controversy if Brennan starts a preseason game this summer

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:If by "voices" you mean "fans on message boards", then you're right. The same could be said of any team in the league. Starting QBs are under the microscope, and the backup (whoever it is) always seems like a saviour to the average fan if the starter falters.

Let's wait for Brennan to get his first taste of NFL game speed and playmaking defenders in camp and preseason. Once his lack of arm strength, mobility, and leadership become apparent and the poor decisions and INTs pile up, he'll have a hard enough time cracking the roster much less being the Doug Williams to Campbell's Jay Schroeder.

I'll definitely be here to eat crow in two years if Brennan displaces Campbell via a QB controversy.
Will you be here at the end of camp for your serving of crow if Brennan is on the PS or cut outright?

I will be here. I have been here for four years or more already.

So yes I am anxious to see what will happen. I am pretty confident he will probably named the no. 2 guy in year two or maybe even starter.

It sounds like you're already hedging your bet. Being named #2 in his second year, even though it would be extremely ambitious since he'll have to outcompete other players just to make the team, does not equal a QB controversy.
A QB controversy occurs when the starter and the backup are interchanged over the course of a game or several games because one is not clearly superior to the other on a consistent basis. Brennan simply being named the backup next year (which I think is unlikely in any event) does not a QB controversy make.

P.S. If the join date under your avatar is correct, you have been here less than 4 years, not the "four years or more" that you claim. I only point this out since we're making a time-based proposition here, and I don't want you to get confused and claim that there's a QB controversy if Brennan starts a preseason game this summer

Fair enough.

Here are some factors to consider.

Brand new coach, brand new offense. So Campbell has yet to learn another system and prove himself. Being that he struggled last year but showed some signs of improvement. Still being unproven is a major factor.

There is no guarantee Jason Campbell will become a good QB. I am sorry to break it to you guys. But you all this to be true.

Zorn hand picked Brennan himself. So that goes a long way. I hope Campbell works out. I really do. Just dont be surprised when Campbell struggles and Brennan gets thrown into the starter position.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I would have rather had Andre' Woodson or John David Booty... but I guess the Skins didn't like them enough to take them before Durant Brooks so we got Colt Brennan instead.

IMO Colt has the tools you need to make it in a West Coast offense. He's mobile, he has great accuracy (maybe the best in the draft) and he's working on getting bigger (he's already up about 20 pounds from his college playing weight.

Zorn saw some skills he liked in Colt, and he thinks he can mold him into a decent backup.

Of course, it's possible that Zorn has Gregg Williams syndrome and thinks he can mold ANYONE into a solid QB, but I think Brennan is better than Chad Henne (which isn't saying much, considering my opinion of Chad Henne) Surely, anyone who played behind such a terrible offensive line in college and still managed to write a new record book at the NCAA level must have some redeeming qualities.

"The thing I look for in a quarterback is, can he hit what he is throwing at?" Zorn said. "Colt has done that. He has been a 70 percent passer. Whatever level and whatever type of defense you are going against, to throw 70 percent completion there is great accuracy. You can see that in many of the games in the last couple of seasons. You can see his accuracy.

"He has the ability to move around, too. He is a 4.7 runner in the 40. His lateral movement and his ability to get himself in the position to throw the ball after a play breaks down--it's tremendous."

"When you see [Brennan] throw, the ball is going to come out quick and it is going to be accurate," Zorn said. "I don't know about his ball speed. I'm not as concerned about the ball speed as I am about accuracy.

"What happens is, [quarterbacks] who don't throw hard anticipate [pass routes] better. That's what I will be looking for when I evaluate him."

Skinsfan55 wrote:You can build arm strength too, I mean, he's gained 20 pounds since college... you're telling me he's got the same arm?

I think not.

absinthe1023 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

absinthe1023 wrote:If by "voices" you mean "fans on message boards", then you're right. The same could be said of any team in the league. Starting QBs are under the microscope, and the backup (whoever it is) always seems like a saviour to the average fan if the starter falters.

Let's wait for Brennan to get his first taste of NFL game speed and playmaking defenders in camp and preseason. Once his lack of arm strength, mobility, and leadership become apparent and the poor decisions and INTs pile up, he'll have a hard enough time cracking the roster much less being the Doug Williams to Campbell's Jay Schroeder.

I'll definitely be here to eat crow in two years if Brennan displaces Campbell via a QB controversy.
Will you be here at the end of camp for your serving of crow if Brennan is on the PS or cut outright?

I will be here. I have been here for four years or more already.

So yes I am anxious to see what will happen. I am pretty confident he will probably named the no. 2 guy in year two or maybe even starter.

It sounds like you're already hedging your bet. Being named #2 in his second year, even though it would be extremely ambitious since he'll have to outcompete other players just to make the team, does not equal a QB controversy.
A QB controversy occurs when the starter and the backup are interchanged over the course of a game or several games because one is not clearly superior to the other on a consistent basis. Brennan simply being named the backup next year (which I think is unlikely in any event) does not a QB controversy make.

P.S. If the join date under your avatar is correct, you have been here less than 4 years, not the "four years or more" that you claim. I only point this out since we're making a time-based proposition here, and I don't want you to get confused and claim that there's a QB controversy if Brennan starts a preseason game this summer

Fair enough.

Here are some factors to consider.

Brand new coach, brand new offense. So Campbell has yet to learn another system and prove himself. Being that he struggled last year but showed some signs of improvement. Still being unproven is a major factor.

There is no guarantee Jason Campbell will become a good QB. I am sorry to break it to you guys. But you all this to be true.

Zorn hand picked Brennan himself. So that goes a long way. I hope Campbell works out. I really do. Just dont be surprised when Campbell struggles and Brennan gets thrown into the starter position.

No way....so what you're telling me in your most recent post is that there's no guarantee as to whether a player will succeed at the NFL level? Really? Man, I'm sure glad you're around to enlighten those of us who thought that every player drafted will automatically become a Pro Bowler....

You do, however, bring up an excellent point. I think anyone who has ever seen an NFL game knows that Jason Campbell (or any other player) is not guaranteed to become a valuable starter.
My question is: How can you be so direct and pragmatic about Campbell's future while ignoring the fact that Brennan faces long odds to even make the team?

Let's break it down:

EXPERIENCE

Campbell has NFL experience as a starter. He's already made many adjustments to his game based strictly on being exposed to the speed and craftiness of NFL defenses. Before that, he led Auburn to an undefeated season in the toughest, fastest conference in college football while playing in a West Coast offense. Look at the number of SEC defenders that make it to the NFL; Campbell was still able to dominate this conference in an offense that is very similar to what Zorn will install here.

Brennan was dominant in the WAC, but team speed in this conference is a joke compared to the SEC and other power conferences. In addition, Brennan played in June Jones' "spread" scheme, which is run by exactly zero NFL teams. Brennan hasn't played in a West Coast scheme since high school. Even though he is an accurate passer, he is not used to looking defenders off or going through the progressions on a "passing tree".

Edge: Campbell


MEASURABLES:

Campbell stands 6'5" and weighs 233#. He has great presence in the pocket. He also has a cannon for an arm and can make any throw in the NFL. It's also worth pointing out that even at this size, Campbell was hit hard enough last year to sustain a serious knee injury.

Brennan is 6'3" and weighs 205#, with a much thinner frame (especially lower body) than Campbell. Even his supporters say he lacks arm strength, and he will have trouble seeing over NFL defensive lineman. He will also have difficulty not just with the long ball, but with the sideline out pattern, which is important in the WCO. With his thin frame and legs, Brennan will also have trouble with durability if he sees signficant playing time in The League.

Edge: Campbell


INTANGIBLES:

Campbell is well-known for his coolness in the huddle and methodical, measured approach. He never gets too high or too low, and keeps the offense balanced. This is really a part of his character, and has been present since the beginning. Remember his audible that resulted in a TD pass to ey to beat the Panthers in his first year as a starter?
Off the field, Campbell is a class act and has never been close to any sort of trouble at any stage of his career.

Brennan is not known to be a leader on the field. If you ever watched any Hawai'i games (being on the West Coast, I saw quite a few), Brennan looks pumped while playing against Nevada and throwing 6 TD passes. In times of adversity, however, his body language changes. The best example of this is the Sugar Bowl game, but it's almost unfair to mention that, isn't it? Can you really see Santana, Clinton, and Sellers getting motivated by Brennan and believing in him during a late game drive?
Off the field, Brennan is a convicted felon. We've already discussed this ad nauseum, but that is the inescapable truth.

Edge: Campbell


What else is there to say? I guess you'll point out the fact that Campbell's pro experience gives him an unfair advantage over Brennan. However, due to the difference in their college careers , physical tools, and intangibles, Campbell would still be the most NFL-ready and have the most potential even if both players were rookies. There is a reason Campbell was selected in Round 1 and Brennan lasted until Round 6. There's only one Tom Brady, you know. Just about every other 6th round QB is selling real estate somewhere.

Brennan's best case scenario is to beat out Hollenbach, the UDFA from I-State, and whatever other project QBs are in camp for the 3rd QB spot. I don't think there's any way that he could hope to beat out Collins for #2, and the thought of him starting an NFL game at any point in the forseeable future is laughable. As third stringer, he could hope to catch the eye of a QB-hungry team such as CHI who would then trade for him. This is by far the best way for him to have any sort of an NFL career. I don't like to deal in absolutes, but Brennan could never be a starter in the brutal NFC East.

Barring this, I think he's practice squad material at best. On the bright side, I think his skills are a perfect fit for the Arena League, where he would become a perennial All-Star and Hall of Famer.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:You can build arm strength too, I mean, he's gained 20 pounds since college... you're telling me he's got the same arm?

I think not.

That's not 20 pounds of muscle. He's gained that weight because he had hip surgery and is out of shape. Any comparisons between Campbell and Brennan are pointless right now, because as another poster pointed out, Campbell is superior in every category. It's been years since Brennan even took a snap from under center (he was out of shotgun all the time in college). He is a long term project and maybe in time will become a solid #2. At this point he just needs to worry about getting healthy and making the team.