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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:20 pm
by HEROHAMO
Fios wrote:I'm stunned by the number of professional scouts who visit this site. And people wonder why I stay away during the off-season.
Just leave it to the pros.
Just leave it to beaver. Me that is. HEEHEEHEE
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:49 pm
by aswas71788
The greatest thing about these forums is that we can be the worlds greatest head coach, scout, defensive/offensive coordintor, GM, evaluator of talent, owner, etc. We would have called all of the right plays to beat the opposition and win the Super Bowl every year.
If we are right, we can remind everyone how perfect we are, if we are wrong just not talk about it and let it die.
Fios, this is all in fun. We are all Redskin fans. Regardless of how grumpy we may get and make all sorts of threats during the off season, we will be right back for the first pre-season game. We are addicted; Captivated by the possibility that our beloved Redskins may again win the Super Bowl; enthralled by the promise of a dynasty beyond the expectations of everyone.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:52 pm
by SkinsFreak
Some of you people make me sick with the things you spit out as fact, when those comments are simply nothing more than ignorant, non-informed blanket statements with absolutely no merit.
JASON CAMPBELL WAS A WEST COAST QB!!! 
Back in 2004, new Auburn Tigers offensive coordinator Al Borges was looking like the real deal. Heck, he was the real deal. After all, quarterback Jason Campbell improved immeasurably under his West Coast tutelage, as did the entire offense. The end result? The Tigers went undefeated and watched three offensive skill-position players get swept away by the NFL in the draft's first round (Campbell, Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams).
LinkWho's Al Borges you ask...?Borges is a student of the West Coast offense and once considered himself a West Coast "purist."[8] Borges still credits former San Francisco 49ers head coach Bill Walsh with the major influence for how he coaches quarterbacks.[6] He subsequently incorporated substantial play action into his offense to deal with modern defensive schemes and strives for a 50-50 run-pass ratio.[8] He likes trick or gadget plays to "keep defenses honest" and "deflate your opponent a little bit."[8] After arriving at Auburn in 2004, a traditional rushing offense power, Borges found a deeply talented set of running backs including Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown and further modified his version of the West Coast offense to a run-first orientation he has referred to as the "Gulf Coast" offense.
Jason Campbell had his most successful season in the West Coast system. I didn't have time last night, but that's why I asked if any of you had any idea about Jason's college days. Jason was a stud in the West Coast system.
In that West Coast system, Campbell led that team to an undefeated season, a National Championship and JC won the Sugarbowl MVP award... AS A WEST COAST QB!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:01 pm
by SkinsFreak
And by the way, which fool was it that asked if I have any understanding or knowledge of football?
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:13 pm
by SkinsFreak
And another thought on the matter.
All these media reports about how Jason getting set back because he has to learn a new system, and all about Saunders system of numbers verses words... blah, blah, blah... is a joke. These fools know nothing, other than taking another shot at the Skins. Jason already has a ton of knowledge about the West Coast system. In fact, it was Saunders system that was foreign to Jason.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:44 pm
by CanesSkins26
SkinsFreak wrote:Some of you people make me sick with the things you spit out as fact, when those comments are simply nothing more than ignorant, non-informed blanket statements with absolutely no merit.
JASON CAMPBELL WAS A WEST COAST QB!!!
Back in 2004, new Auburn Tigers offensive coordinator Al Borges was looking like the real deal. Heck, he was the real deal. After all, quarterback Jason Campbell improved immeasurably under his West Coast tutelage, as did the entire offense. The end result? The Tigers went undefeated and watched three offensive skill-position players get swept away by the NFL in the draft's first round (Campbell, Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams).
LinkWho's Al Borges you ask...?Borges is a student of the West Coast offense and once considered himself a West Coast "purist."[8] Borges still credits former San Francisco 49ers head coach Bill Walsh with the major influence for how he coaches quarterbacks.[6] He subsequently incorporated substantial play action into his offense to deal with modern defensive schemes and strives for a 50-50 run-pass ratio.[8] He likes trick or gadget plays to "keep defenses honest" and "deflate your opponent a little bit."[8] After arriving at Auburn in 2004, a traditional rushing offense power, Borges found a deeply talented set of running backs including Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown and further modified his version of the West Coast offense to a run-first orientation he has referred to as the "Gulf Coast" offense.
Jason Campbell had his most successful season in the West Coast system. I didn't have time last night, but that's why I asked if any of you had any idea about Jason's college days. Jason was a stud in the West Coast system.
In that West Coast system, Campbell led that team to an undefeated season, a National Championship and JC won the Sugarbowl MVP award... AS A WEST COAST QB!!!
That is very encouraging information. However, you are not looking at the entire picture. Your own quoted text says that Auburn ran a run-first version of the West Coast offense known as the Gulf Coast offense.
After arriving at Auburn in 2004, a traditional rushing offense power, Borges found a deeply talented set of running backs including Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown and further modified his version of the West Coast offense to a run-first orientation he has referred to as the "Gulf Coast" offense.
Campbell only attempted 270 passes in 2004, while Cadillac and Ronnie Brown combined for 392 carries. So JC basically only attempted 20 passes a game that season. The whole point of Auburn's offense that season was to get the ball into the hands of Brown and Cadillac any way possible and as often as possible. You'd be hard pressed to find a west coast offense in the NFL that runs the ball so much more than it passes.
Running the west coast in college is also a lot easier than it is in the NFL. The slow release doesn't hurt you as much and you have more time to make your reads.
This doesn't mean he can't be successful in this offense in the NFL. His accuracy improved a good amount from season 1 to season 2, and I'm confident that it will improve even more this season. As long as JC can quicken his release a little bit and go through his reads faster, I think that he can do well in whatever version of the West Coast offense Zorn runs. All I'm saying is that it isn't a natural fit for JC's strengths and weaknesses.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:58 pm
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote: All I'm saying is that it isn't a natural fit for JC's strengths and weaknesses.
Sorry, that isn't the case at all.
The point made by some here and in the media was the difficulty of Campbell to learn the West Coast system or whether or not he could perform in that system. He knows it. Just because they used Cadillac and Brown to a large degree while at Auburn, in no way means Jason is not familiar with the system or the terminology. The run / pass ratio means nothing. The actual amount of passes thrown means nothing. Jason is familiar with the system in terms of plays, routes and terminology, which is contrary to reports from the media and comments made here. When Gibbs spoke about the film review from all four years of Jason's college career, all Joe spoke about was Jason's accuracy.
But please, feel free to continue to put your own spin on the issue. The fact remains that you and some others here had no clue Jason had learned or previously played in the west coast system. He was coached by and learned from a "west coast purist".
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:58 pm
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote:That is very encouraging information. However, you are not looking at the entire picture.
BTW -
I'm not looking at the entire picture?
For the record, before I made you aware of this incredibly relevant and factual information regarding Campbell's prior west coast education and experience, you
had no picture, other than the uninformed one you painted in your own mind, and then tried to make everyone else believe it as if it were fact. This isn't entirely your fault however, the media has failed to due some basic research as well, ultimately giving fans nonfactual, unfounded and misinformation.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:25 pm
by chiefhog44
ComebackSkins wrote:how do you guys think this will affect Buges? Has he ever had to teach zone blocking? I dont know much about that, but it sounds like he doesnt.
About a third of our blocking has been zone blocking since Al Saunders arrived and Portis was complaining about not having it. They did a real nice piece on it on "Playbook" on NFL Network this season.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:52 pm
by 1fan4ramsey
I believe JC ran the West Coast offense his senior year at Auburn and went lke 13-0. I could be wrong but this is what I'm remembering.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:32 pm
by SkinsJock
It's amazing what can happen here when you take a break for a few hours
Got to love it - thanks SkinsFreak
I think our offense is going to be just fine - by the time Campbell is finished here he will be the most adaptable QB in the NFL
Actually I'm not that concerned about our team - we just need a HC and for this season we'll be fine - look at what the giants did with their QB and that hopeless coach!
it's the future with these 2 bozos that has me worried
IF Snyder would just fire Cerrato and bring in a GM we'd be in fine shape, thank you Joe Gibbs
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:15 pm
by PulpExposure
1fan4ramsey wrote:I believe JC ran the West Coast offense his senior year at Auburn and went lke 13-0. I could be wrong but this is what I'm remembering.
Lol. I guess you don't bother to read any of the posts before posting, eh?
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:05 pm
by langleyparkjoe
1fan4ramsey wrote:I believe JC ran the West Coast offense his senior year at Auburn and went lke 13-0. I could be wrong but this is what I'm remembering.
I think your right, the year USC crushed Oklahoma if I'm with you on the thought... I think people were saying Auburn might as well have played USC that year for the championship with the way the sooners played. ?. ?.
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:30 pm
by BnGhog
SkinsFreak wrote: Just because they used Cadillac and Brown to a large degree while at Auburn, in no way means Jason is not familiar with the system or the terminology. Jason is familiar with the system in terms of plays, routes and terminology, which is contrary to reports from the media and comments made here.
While I agree with you for the most part. Jason is familiar with the system, and I don't think it will be that hard for him. But the terminology changes from coach to coach. While you said "a slant is a slant" this is true but Zorn may call it a "Fox Trot" or "Zooloo" or something. Each team and coach calls the plays with different terms, even if they are the same play. Like "Fox trot, Zooloo Double Beaver Reverse on two". So, he will be familiar with the plays and this is why I agree that it won't take him all that long to learn. But still, he will have to learn them.
And he will have be more carefull in his speach. At the begining of this year, ARL and Sellers both has said on CSN that they had a hard time understanding him. With his Miss. accent. He will have to be more clear saying names of the Zorn plays vs. saying the numbers of saunders plays in the huddle.
Still, I don't think that is a big issue either. The big issue is, WHO IS OUR DARN HEAD COACH?
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:05 pm
by SkinsFreak
BnGhog wrote:While I agree with you for the most part. Jason is familiar with the system, and I don't think it will be that hard for him. But the terminology changes from coach to coach. While you said "a slant is a slant" this is true but Zorn may call it a "Fox Trot" or "Zooloo" or something. Each team and coach calls the plays with different terms, even if they are the same play. Like "Fox trot, Zooloo Double Beaver Reverse on two". So, he will be familiar with the plays and this is why I agree that it won't take him all that long to learn. But still, he will have to learn them.
Yes, you're right and I would agree with that. Certainly there will be some slight changes or differences from coach to coach. Jason should be able to grasp that pretty easily though and I'm sure Zorn will accommodate and compliment what Jason already knows.
As far as Jason's speech and accent, yes, Jason's pronunciation will need to be a focus. But I think some of that could have been attributed to the lack of confidence in Saunders' system and Jason being somewhat unsure when calling Saunders' plays. I don't think Jason was ever comfortable in that offense.
But I do however, think he'll feel much more comfortable in a familiar offense such as one similar to that in which he ran at Auburn. Due to the fact that he was extremely successful in that system should bode well for his confidence. I'm sure Zorn will tweak it to some degree, but Jason should do better in this type of system.
All I'm saying is that it isn't a natural fit for JC's strengths and weaknesses.
Not to harp on this, but the
fact is that Jason had his most successful season, over the span of his entire football career, playing in the west coast system. He lead his team to an undefeated season, a National Championship and won the Sugarbowl MVP award as a west coast QB.
That indicates the system played right into his strengths and was a natural fit, as he improved "immeasurably" that year. Zorn will take him to the next level, as Zorn is known best for developing young QB's.
Yes, I know, I know... Jason did it with two amazing running backs in Williams and Brown, and they used those two quite a bit that year. Who wouldn't? But don't forget that the Skins have two pretty darn good running backs as well, and I'm predicting the emergence of Marcus Mason in this system. He's a slippery little dude and could shine in this system.
So again, Zorn can tweak or design his version of the west coast system to fit the strengths of the players we have on our roster. Having a QB like Jason, who already knows a lot about the system, as far as formations, plays, routes and terminology, is a huge advantage, and I'll bet Zorn took that into consideration.
I believe our offense will be much improved next year. If I'm not mistaken, our offense only scored more than 24 points in three games last year. I'll bet they improve quite a bit on that statistic next season, and Jason's familiarity with the system will ease the transition of offensive philosophies.
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:37 pm
by CanesSkins26
SkinsFreak wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote: All I'm saying is that it isn't a natural fit for JC's strengths and weaknesses.
Sorry, that isn't the case at all.
The point made by some here and in the media was the difficulty of Campbell to learn the West Coast system or whether or not he could perform in that system. He knows it. Just because they used Cadillac and Brown to a large degree while at Auburn, in no way means Jason is not familiar with the system or the terminology. The run / pass ratio means nothing. The actual amount of passes thrown means nothing. Jason is familiar with the system in terms of plays, routes and terminology, which is contrary to reports from the media and comments made here. When Gibbs spoke about the film review from all four years of Jason's college career, all Joe spoke about was Jason's accuracy.
But please, feel free to continue to put your own spin on the issue. The fact remains that you and some others here had no clue Jason had learned or previously played in the west coast system. He was coached by and learned from a "west coast purist".
My post had nothing to do with JC's ability to pick up the offense. I am far more concerned about the physical aspect of running the system. West Coast offense in the NFL is built on quick reads, a quick release, and short accurate passes. JC has a slow release. He is still slow with his reads. He still has accuracy issues. So to say that it is a natural fit for him isn't entirely accurate.
It's great that he was able to run it well in college. However, once again, running an offense in college is not the same as running it in the NFL. When you play Louisiana-Monroe, you release doesn't have to be as quick, you dont have to go through your reads as quickly, and your receivers wont be as well covered as when you play a team like the Ravens. Also, it's a lot easier to run an offense when you have running backs like Brown and Cadillac. Yes we have CP and Betts, but they are nowhere near being as successful 1-2 punch in the NFL as Brown and Cadillac were at Auburn.
And once again, I'm not saying he can't run the west cost offense effectively. I just think that he is going to have to work on some of his weaknesses before he can master this type of system.
Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:05 am
by SkinsFreak
How long have you been a NFL scout and a talent evaluator?
Whatever.
Your just back peddling. Two days ago you had no clue Jason even played in the system.
The fact is, Jason has been most accurate on his short to midrange passes, zipping the ball into tight places. Jason struggled on the deep vertical passes. As far as his mechanics are concerned, what do you think Zorn is here for? As I said, Zorn will take him to the next level.
Quick reads - Slower reads and surveying the field was a part of Gibbs style of football. Brunell did the same thing, only to just throw the ball away, as Gibbs instructed. It was a part of that system. And you have no clue about Jason's ability to read defenses. The vertical routes in that system
requires a QB hold the ball longer. Shorter, quicker routes and he'll have to get rid of the ball faster. It's a product of the system.
Playing football in college is easier than in the pros? No kidding? Really? Thanks...
Williams and Brown are far better players than Portis and Betts? I'm not so sure about that. Comparing RB's playability in college verses the pros is apples to oranges. When looking at QB play from college, from the standpoint of accuracy, timing and reads, you can gauge that for comparison purposes.
I said this before here, but in Florida, and I think you should know this, during the offseason, the local cable sports channels replay SEC games from the prior season.
I have several close fans who are Gator fans, so we watch a lot of SEC football here. I also saw a lot of Campbell while he was a Auburn, especially in 2004, their undefeated and championship season. After we drafted Campbell, that summer, I made a point to watch all the Auburn games replayed on the local networks, and I recorded every game from the 2004 season.
That said, my eyes don't lie and I know what I saw. You're free to make whatever nonprofessional critique of Jason you want, but it doesn't make it fact or accurate. I know what I saw, and Jason played better in that system than he did in any of the other three systems he previously played in.
Is it going to be the exact same system that Zorn will teach and run? Of course not. Is playing football in college much different than in the pros? Of course. Is the personnel on the current Skins roster different from what Jason had in college? Of course. But none of that has any bearing on whether Jason has the mental and physical tools to be a west coast QB. He's already been there and done that, and was pretty damn good at it.
I saw it with my own two eyes... did you?
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:26 pm
by SkinsFreak
Just wanted to note that Jason Campbell mentioned in his interview on Redskins Radio, now on Redskins.com, that this new offense will be very similar to the one he ran his senior season at Auburn under Al Borges.
That system at Auburn was a West Coast system but put emphasis on the running game with Brown and Williams. I believe it will be very similar here with Portis, Betts and Mason, and with the new coaches of Stump Mitchell and Sherman Smith, both former RB coaches.
"I think he's cited that he's had seven offensive coordinators in the years he's played college and the pros,'' Zorn said. "I just say, 'That's the way it goes.' I can't change that. He can't change that. What we can do is not [dwell] on that. We can't use that as a reason he can't do something. He should be able to do a lot of things now. That's the way I look at it, you should be able to do everything now that you've had so many offensive coordinators."
That's a wise man.
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:35 pm
by SkinsFreak
"I like the offense," said Campbell, who starred in the scheme as a senior at Auburn. "That was one of my best years. I completed 70 percent of my passes. You knew the offense and you were in total control of the offense, protections and all. It's a quick strike offense, an offense you can spread the ball out. Santana [Moss] and [Antwaan] Randle El, the quicker they get the ball in their hands the better opportunity they have to make yards. You don't have to go for the home run hitters all the time."
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:49 pm
by brad7686
The West Coast Offense, as it is today as a derivative of the Walsh offense, is noted for its simplicity. Saunders offense on the other hand, is not.
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:20 am
by HEROHAMO
Anytime you switch to a new offense it will take time to adjust. We hope it happens quickly. Probably not.
So here is the smart thing to do. Lean heavily on the running game the first year. Portis and Betts should get about 25-35 carries a game combined. Mix in some playaction and an array of screens. Jason Campbell should get about 20-30 passing attempts a game. Depending on how well JC does will determine how much freedom in the passing game you give him. Given the fact we dont have a real possesion receiver does not help out the passing game either.
So like alot of us have said before, we need a big physical playmaking receiver to help out this passing game. Moss is the deep threat. We need our next Art Monk. A receiver who can block, catch and convert the third down into first downs. It is not rocket science please front office come through on the year.
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:51 am
by HEROHAMO
If anybody is interested? I have a copy of West Coast offense playbook.It is in the PDF format so you will need adobe acrobat which is also free. I can email to you for free. You must be a Redskin fan and member of this site. Or I will not email to you. No hidden agendas here just like to share football knowledge. IF you have a playbook ? I am actually looking for a 3-4 defensive playbook to checkout email it to me too.
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:04 am
by Gnome
It would seem to me that the West Coast is a system 'starting point' and not the ten commandments written in stone. Each team modifies the system to fit their needs.
Zorn is said to employ unusual teaching methods. Meaning he's creative. Based on that I would think the man will devise innovative ways to employ his system and make it the Redskins' own system unique to them.
Zorn and Campbell aren't robots. If they're trying to install aspects of Zorn's Redskin version of the West Coast and it's not working, they'll know why they're struggling and be compelled to find ways to make Redskins West work - by changing Jason's approach or Zorn's approach.
Someone needs to start a thread when the season starts and we've seen the offense where we come up with a new name for it. I'm an East Coast guy and I can't stand the West Coast name. Makes my skin crawl!
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:36 pm
by funbuncher
Herohamo, I would love a copy of the playbook! Where is it from exactly?
email address is
gjbuttnut@yahoo.com
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:24 pm
by HEROHAMO
funbuncher wrote:Herohamo, I would love a copy of the playbook! Where is it from exactly?
email address is
gjbuttnut@yahoo.com
I believe I was looking for Bill Walshes old playbook. Then somehow I linked to some site. I dont remember what site it was. Anyhow I believe it is a copy of Bill Walshes Stanford Playbook. I could be wrong though. It is a legit West coast offensive playbook which also has the philosophy's and mind sets for this offense.
I actually want coach Gibbs old school playbook. THe Air Coryell PLaybook would be sweet too.