The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

JPFair wrote:[The ONLY thing he's done that was smart was to hire Joe Gibbs back in '02. And, even that wasn't based on his ability to run a team, rather, it was based on his admiration and love for Joe Gibbs.

Gibbs was 2004. And there is no way he hired him just because he loved him; he hired him because he knew that Gibbs was a fantastic football coach.

EVERY other move, without exception, has been an unmitigated disaster for Snyder.

Hiring Schottenheimer wasn't a disaster. Hiring Spurrier, who was widely seen as the next "it" coach, wasn't a disaster. It turned OUT to be a disaster, but that's hindsight working for you.

The list is long and astounding: Spurrier, Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, Jeff George, firing a coach before the end of the season when they're still in with a chance, and the list goes on and on.

All of the examples you cite happened in 2002 or before. Its it conceivable he's learned something in the past 4 years?

The Skins went from signing over-the-hill big-name vets, to signing guys in the prime of their careers. That shows that he's learned.

There is no evidence, historical or otherwise, to suggest that the fans should have confidence in what Snyder is doing as far as finding a coach goes.

By not immediately signing a big name coach, that goes against the history you've cited against him.

Now he's being knocked for being thorough?

Snyder is the most incompetent owner in professional sports

Hyperbole alert!

You'd rather have Bill Bidwell as your owner? Or the Lions owner? Or the Knicks owner?

Come on. Think a little first and ease up on the rhetoric.

"Hiring Schottenheimer wasn't a disaster. Hiring Spurrier, who was widely seen as the next "it" coach, wasn't a disaster. It turned OUT to be a disaster, but that's hindsight working for you."

A rose is a rose is a rose...a disaster is a disaster is a disaster. Either way, it's a disaster that was brought on by Dan Snyder, and ONLY Dan Snyder. Success starts at the top, and Snyder was responsible for what became of the Schottenheimer situation. To say that it is hindsight doesn't negate the fact that it was a disaster no matter how you look at it. Would another owner have acted the same way with regards to Schottenheimer? Doubtfull, but Snyder seems to think that money can overcome everything, and in this case, it didn't. Again, it was a disaster. As for Spurrier, well, there were a LOT of people questioning whether Spurriers offense could work in the NFL, and Snyder should have heeded those warnings. He didn't, and in the end, it was a disaster.

All of the examples you cite happened in 2002 or before. Its it conceivable he's learned something in the past 4 years?

One would think, wouldn't they? But, all the evidence shows that he hasn't.

The Skins went from signing over-the-hill big-name vets, to signing guys in the prime of their careers. That shows that he's learned.

The Skins started to sign the right players only when Gibbs became Team President, not when Snyder "learned" something. What players are on the team now that pre-date Joe Gibbs hiring in 04? I rest my case! So, to answer your question on whether that shows he's "learned" something, I think the proof is in the pudding. He hired Gibbs and all of a sudden we started signing "guys in their prime", but Snyder has owned this team since 1999, and all the work that Snyder before and after Joe Gibbs, shows that he has NOT learned anything in terms of how to run a football team.

By not immediately signing a big name coach, that goes against the history you've cited against him.

I don't beleive I cited any history about him signing a big name coach immediately, and if I did, please show me where I said that. My "citing" against him is not about whether or not he signs a coach right away or not, it's about how he's handling the whole situation. Naming Cerrato as some new hot shot with some fancy title doesn't cut it. And, his handling of Gregg Williams, signing all these assistance before he has a coach in place is what I'm saying...it's not the way other teams would do it. If Snyders actions had some history of success, then it wouldn't matter how other teams handle situations, but because his history has resulted in NOTHING, shows that he either needs to learn from others, or that he should, in fact, do things in a more conventional manner. Again, show me where I said "by not signing a big name coach" goes against the history I've cited against him. I'm all for doing a thorough job in the interview process, but JIM FASSEL? Letting GW go in the way he did? Preching continuity in one breath, and then carrying on the way he is? THAT'S continuity? In any event, his handling of the head coaching search is exactly what I'm talking about. His way of doing things is a failure, and the past is evdience of that statement, and the future will be further testament to it.

Now he's being knocked for being thorough?

Where did anyone suggest that he's being knocked for being "thorough"? As I said, I'm all for being thorough, but the whole way he's handled it is just wrong, and it has NFL execs from around the league saying the same thing. Be thorough, by all means, but be thorough in the right way. In addition, Snyder has not shown a scrap of evidence to suggest that he's even capable of being "thorough" in football issues. Snyder being thorough is a lot different from a football person being thorough. Bill Parcells is a VERY "thorough" person, and he's handled the Miami situation a lot better than Snyder has handled this situation.

You'd rather have Bill Bidwell as your owner?

I would?

Actually, I wouldn't. But, I would settle for Snyder being an owner, and letting his GM do all the football related things, such as a Head Coaching search, etc...

Or the Lions owner?

I would?

Come on. Think a little first and ease up on the rhetoric.

With respect, but I think you should first see the points that I'm making, and not make assumptions on your own. I never said that I would rather have anyone else as owner, yet you suggested I would rather have someone else like Bidwell, Lions, etc... But, if you go back and read my post, you'd see that what I was suggesting is that Snyder own the team, do all his ownership duties, but hire a GM, a football person, to do the football side of things. There's a difference!!

por-tiz2skins wrote:Got a feeling Mooch is the coach and I prefer him too.I fell bad for Fassel if he doesn't get it.

Ahhhh!


Looks like Mooch gets the P2S "Flavor of the Hour" Seal of Approval... for now.

What time is it?

JPFair wrote:The Skins started to sign the right players only when Gibbs became Team President, not when Snyder "learned" something. What players are on the team now that pre-date Joe Gibbs hiring in 04?

It's quite common for a team to clean house when a new coach & a brand new philosophy comes in. Especially when a coach inherits a very bad team. You know that. The Spurrier teams were bereft of talent, so it's not as if there was a lot to work with there.

So, to answer your question on whether that shows he's "learned" something, I think the proof is in the pudding. He hired Gibbs and all of a sudden we started signing "guys in their prime", but Snyder has owned this team since 1999, and all the work that Snyder before and after Joe Gibbs, shows that he has NOT learned anything in terms of how to run a football team.

How can you say this when you haven't been able to see who the Redskins sign in Free Agency this year? You shouldn't immediately assume he's going to revert to the pre-Gibbs phase once Gibbs left...UNTIL he does so.

And it's completely conceivable that Joe Gibbs taught Dan Snyder something about how to manage a team, isn't it? Or is Snyder even past that point of redemption.

The only thing we know about Snyder's work post-Gibbs is...not a whole lot. Seriously, think on it. A lot of interviews conducted, no head coach.

JPFair wrote:

You'd rather have Bill Bidwell as your owner?

I would?

Actually, I wouldn't. But, I would settle for Snyder being an owner, and letting his GM do all the football related things, such as a Head Coaching search, etc...

Or the Lions owner?

I would?

Perhaps I was there putting words in your mouth, and for that I apologize. But you did say that Snyder is the worst owner in professional sports...intimating that you'd rather have anyone else (since by dint of him being the worst, anyone else has to be better).

I gave two fairly clear-cut examples as to worse owners in the NFL. Is he the best owner in the NFL? Uh no. But is he, as you put it, the "worst owner in professional sports"? No also.

As for the rest of it, Snyder is absolutely getting hammered for taking his time. He's interviewing a reasonable amount of coaches, both young and older coaches. I think he's doing his due diligence, trying to find the correct leader for this franchise.

Yes, he didn't elevate Gregg Williams, but none of us know how those 4 interviews went, do we? Common business sense says it's irresponsible to name someone to run your multi-billion dollar company unless you're absolutely sure they're right. Williams interviewed 4 times. Perhaps Snyder just thought "Great DefCo...but not a good vision for a Head Coach." And it's not like Williams' 17-31 head coaching record in Buffalo is anything to brag about, either.

Yes, Snyder has hired both an OC/DC, which seems absurd on it's face, but then again, do we know that these weren't OC/DC handpicked by the head coach he really wants? For example, it's widely speculated that perhaps he's waiting until Mariucci's contract expires with NFL Network after the Superbowl. Can't hire Mooch, but in the meantime, he locked up the OC/DC that Mariucci wanted (who both were well regarded and may not have been around after the Superbowl). Or perhaps the coach isn't Mariucci. I have no idea.

Right now, all I'm trying to point out, is that no one knows anything, outside of Snyder and Cerrato. To rush to judgment at this time, with our limited knowledge, is short-sighted.

Like I posted elsewhere, if Snyder goes out and signs the stupid flashy free agents, drains our draft picks for mediocre talent, signs the coach that doesn't fit...yes. I'll absolutely conceed you're right.

But what if it comes out that Mariucci or Fassel were the pick all along (or another head coach that specifically wanted Zorn and Blatche), how was Snyder being stupid?

Right now, we're all jumping the gun. It's been 3 weeks since Joe Gibbs retired, and all we know is...we don't have a head coach.

In essence, we know nothing, aside from the media reports that have been vastly incorrect and competely speculative so far.

DEHog wrote:

I'm sticking with the if its fassel, he should have named him 5 days ago theroy. I think that Dan iI'm sticking with the if its fassel, he should have named him 5 days ago theroy. I think that Dan is holding out for a bigger fish. MOOCH.s holding out for a bigger fish. MOOCH.

Well I'm not so sure about that....Snyder had to wrap up the whole GW thing. By that time we were into SB week and after the whole ARod thing in baseball...I think Godell told team to let this week be about the SB. I think Fassel is still in the mix...I just don't see Mooch wanting to work for another dysfunctional organization after the whole Detroit thing.

If Snyder made up his mind about Fassel last week, he would have hired him. Then he could have let GW go at the same time for less of a PR nightmare. Do it like a band-ade

Willisams knew he was out of the running, last tuesday. They did not let him go until friday. That was all before SB week. The Flacons got away with an annoucnment last.

The Arod thing was a disaster, because it was announced durring the game.

I disagree!

The case for those who think Snyder has made a fool of himself and our team:
I think that we all can agree that Snyder has really made a mess of this - I am not critical of his timing just his handling of this whole charade
QUESTION: Is it not true that this guy has made a fortune in the communication business?
ANSWER: True!
QUESTION: Is it not true that this guy has contacts and friends that could advise him on both business and football related items?
ANSWER: True!
QUESTION You would think he would know a little something about communication and perhaps more importantly .... the importance of mis-information?
ANSWER: True!
QUESTION: We submit that he has made it very clear by not making anything clear to anyone that he does not understand anything about the NFL and the process of hiring a Head Coach! We further submit if that is his forte then we can only conclude your honor, that this man knows nothing about the NFL !!!

GUILTY

JPFair wrote:

"Hiring Schottenheimer wasn't a disaster. Hiring Spurrier, who was widely seen as the next "it" coach, wasn't a disaster. It turned OUT to be a disaster, but that's hindsight working for you."

A rose is a rose is a rose...a disaster is a disaster is a disaster. Either way, it's a disaster that was brought on by Dan Snyder, and ONLY Dan Snyder. Success starts at the top, and Snyder was responsible for what became of the Schottenheimer situation. To say that it is hindsight doesn't negate the fact that it was a disaster no matter how you look at it. Would another owner have acted the same way with regards to Schottenheimer? Doubtfull, but Snyder seems to think that money can overcome everything, and in this case, it didn't. Again, it was a disaster. As for Spurrier, well, there were a LOT of people questioning whether Spurriers offense could work in the NFL, and Snyder should have heeded those warnings. He didn't, and in the end, it was a disaster.

The hiring of Marty was a good move, the firing was what made no sense but I wouldn't call it a disaster when he replace him with SOS you're getting close. During Steve's first year he was one game under .500, and one game less than how the team finished the year before, that's sub-par but not disastrous. Spurrier's pitch and catch didn't work and he was gone after his second season. Keeping him any longer would have been a disaster but letting him walk and bringing in JJG wasn't. "the Danny" doesn't think money overcomes everything, that's just a bad reputation that he picked up and he never tried to dispute. If he had disputed it, everyone would know that he thinks MAKING money justifies everything. And he'd rather be veiwed as he is. The money he has made since buying the Skins has help make him a Diner and Amusement Park owner. All the fans that he chased away by firing Turner while "still in the playoff hunt", getting rid of Marty (only because he missed Vinny), and turning the team into the GatorSkins came back as soon as Gibbs did. That's not a disaster that's good business although it's at the fans expense (monetarily and emotionally).

JPFair wrote:

All of the examples you cite happened in 2002 or before. Its it conceivable he's learned something in the past 4 years?

One would think, wouldn't they? But, all the evidence shows that he hasn't.

How can you tell? Gibbs quit and he fired the coordinators. Where's the proof that he hasn't learned? Marty brought in he own crew as did Spurrier and Gibbs. This time he is keeping everyone else in place That's not a move you'd expect from him Pre-Gibbs, he was known for thinking "everyone must go"

JPFair wrote:

The Skins went from signing over-the-hill big-name vets, to signing guys in the prime of their careers. That shows that he's learned.

The Skins started to sign the right players only when Gibbs became Team President, not when Snyder "learned" something. What players are on the team now that pre-date Joe Gibbs hiring in 04? I rest my case! So, to answer your question on whether that shows he's "learned" something, I think the proof is in the pudding. He hired Gibbs and all of a sudden we started signing "guys in their prime", but Snyder has owned this team since 1999, and all the work that Snyder before and after Joe Gibbs, shows that he has NOT learned anything in terms of how to run a football team.

Steven Davis, LaVar Arrington, Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, and Antonio Pierce were all here at some point prior to 2004, I think Davis was the oldest of that group.

JPFair wrote:

By not immediately signing a big name coach, that goes against the history you've cited against him.

I don't beleive I cited any history about him signing a big name coach immediately, and if I did, please show me where I said that. My "citing" against him is not about whether or not he signs a coach right away or not, it's about how he's handling the whole situation. Naming Cerrato as some new hot shot with some fancy title doesn't cut it. And, his handling of Gregg Williams, signing all these assistance before he has a coach in place is what I'm saying...it's not the way other teams would do it. If Snyders actions had some history of success, then it wouldn't matter how other teams handle situations, but because his history has resulted in NOTHING, shows that he either needs to learn from others, or that he should, in fact, do things in a more conventional manner. Again, show me where I said "by not signing a big name coach" goes against the history I've cited against him. I'm all for doing a thorough job in the interview process, but JIM FASSEL? Letting GW go in the way he did? Preching continuity in one breath, and then carrying on the way he is? THAT'S continuity? In any event, his handling of the head coaching search is exactly what I'm talking about. His way of doing things is a failure, and the past is evdience of that statement, and the future will be further testament to it.

Vinny got a new title and nothing more, with Gibbs gone he was going to have more input new title or no new title. We still don't know what his job is or what it was over the last four years. We know he had four interviews with Williams and fired him about week after the last one. Should he have fired him the day Gibbs left? We don't know that the HC to be hasn't had input into who's hired and who's hired as coaches. Zorn is the OC but his name wasn't anywhere in the picture until Fassel's name came up so may Jim is "the Danny's" choice and he wanted Zorn. Fassel also wanted Ryan but the Ravens would have wanted a draft pick. Do you think "the Danny" would have thought twice about giving up a pick to get the guy he wanted four years ago? Instead he keep the staff intact on that side of the ball (this also says the new HC will be a O-minded coach). Back when Gibbs was hired he and Williams were under contract and neither's name had been mentioned prior to the announcement

JPFair wrote:

Now he's being knocked for being thorough?

Where did anyone suggest that he's being knocked for being "thorough"? As I said, I'm all for being thorough, but the whole way he's handled it is just wrong, and it has NFL execs from around the league saying the same thing. Be thorough, by all means, but be thorough in the right way. In addition, Snyder has not shown a scrap of evidence to suggest that he's even capable of being "thorough" in football issues. Snyder being thorough is a lot different from a football person being thorough. Bill Parcells is a VERY "thorough" person, and he's handled the Miami situation a lot better than Snyder has handled this situation.

Bill Parcells is spending Wanye's money and he's bringing in people he knows. "the Danny" is spending his own money and he's keeping the people he has for the most part. Miami had a complete make over less than 12 months ago, I bet the players that were here three years ago feel alot better than Dolphins that have been in Miami the past yhree years.

JPFair wrote:

You'd rather have Bill Bidwell as your owner?

I would?

Actually, I wouldn't. But, I would settle for Snyder being an owner, and letting his GM do all the football related things, such as a Head Coaching search, etc...

That's not going to happen but if he would just stay out of the football operations and stick to being a owner we'd all have less gray hair

JPFair wrote:

Or the Lions owner?

I would?

He hired Matt Millen

JPFair wrote:

Come on. Think a little first and ease up on the rhetoric.

With respect, but I think you should first see the points that I'm making, and not make assumptions on your own. I never said that I would rather have anyone else as owner, yet you suggested I would rather have someone else like Bidwell, Lions, etc... But, if you go back and read my post, you'd see that what I was suggesting is that Snyder own the team, do all his ownership duties, but hire a GM, a football person, to do the football side of things. There's a difference!!

You feel like most fans do but blaming "the Danny" for everything isn't going to help. He wants to be the GM without the title.

Looking back after Gibbs left the first time the Skins four out of six losing seasons before "the Danny" brought the team. After he purchased the team he had 3 out of 5 years at .500 or better before bringing in Gibbs. The team did not make the playoffs once after Gibbs left and before 'The Danny" came to town. In the nine years he has been owner his team made the post season 3 times that's a 1/3 of his tenor. What's Bidwell and and the owner of the Lions records look like. In the 9 years before he brought the team they also made it 3 times and during each span the Redskins went through 4 coaches (Terry R. really doesn't count). Gibbs has five of the six post season trips and Norv under "the Danny" has the other one.

What DH has been saying about waiting to announce Fassel after the SB makes a lot of sense