The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

First, I think Saunders is history. Second, I think Collins is history unless he's given the chance to start 2008. Believe me, Collins will get an offer or two.....everyone here thinks he's old, but being a long term bench warmer, wear and tear wise, he's 32 and not 36. He's perfect for anyone considering a QB in the draft, as a temporary starter for a year or two (which is what the Redskins should have done at the beginning of this year). Mark my words here. Collins will get an offer to start somewhere next year and he's going to take it......he's waited his whole life for this.

The Browns have insinuated that they might be open to deal Anderson not long ago, but have also recently said they'd like to keep both* (for another year). That situation is ripe, as Anderson is a restricted free agent and due for a big payday.

The Browns are committed to moving forward with Quinn (which I think is an error, but so was trading Frye for a 6th pick), so how do they justify Quinns big salary, getting rid of Frye, and bump Anderson to starter pay too? Keep in mind that as a restricted free agent, Anderson can entertain offers....and he's going to get some big ones, for which the Browns would have to match to keep him. And you can bet he's not going to be happy after playing so well, with Quinn being the main guy. The Browns need to stick with Anderson or lose him, and I think they are going to deal Anderson one way or the other. They may put a 1st and 3rd tender on Anderson (2.35 mil) and if the offers for him are too high, they let him go and recieve a 1st and 3rd round pick from the signing team. That would leave them with Quinn, with Dorsey as the backup.

Quinn wants Anderson out of there for sure, and the Browns seem committed to Quinn, so the situation is there.

Redskins could give the Browns a 1st and Collins for Anderson. The Browns solve their problem and have a veteran back up that looked really good playing for the skins. And we get our long term insurance policy for Campbell should he continue the lack of progress next year. Right now, Anderson is much better than Campbell, to be honest.

That would be the BIG move that I think would pay off BIG for the Redskins. That's what was missing this year.....a QB that throws 29 TD passes........that's Anderson.

frankcal20 wrote:This thread has lost all sense of sanity at this point.

I think the insanity is to automatically consider Campbell as the 2008 starter. Heck, if Saunders leaves, there will be another offense that Campbell will liekly need two years to "maybe" learn.

I just don't see why it's so tough to see this. Read my lips,,,,a career back up comes in cold after not playing for 10 years and smokes your starter. What part of this makes you so warm and fuzzy feeling about your starter?

Campbell spent a year and a half on the bench learning. Started 7 games last year, worked hard all offseason, and 13 games this year. This year his numbers (scoring) went down. What makes you think that this offseason will be the big breakout offseason? That makes no sense.

Another point to consider here. Campbell was Gibbs pick. With Gibbs being gone, a new HC, beit Williams or anyone else isn't going to be as patient as Gibbs was.

I'd like to see the Redskins make a move for Anderson as I stated before, but barring that, they need to resign Collins, because Campbell is still a question mark, and Brunell is definitely not the solution.

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First, I think Saunders is history. Second, I think Collins is history unless he's given the chance to start 2008.

If Saunders goes then there is no reason to keep Collins around. There is no point in keeping a 37 year old qb who has to learn a new system. The main reason why Collins was successful was because he knew Al's system so well. Take away the system and you take away Collins' biggest selling point. If Al's goes expect at least 1 year of offensive futility.

RayNAustin wrote:Does that mean that Campbell is a bust? Maybe not, but contrary to popular belief, the jury is still out. Campbell's difficulties are less related to understanding the playbook than is generally believed by the majority here, and relate more (IMO) to those intangibles that are based on instinct and natural tendancies as opposed to learned.

Personally, I think the Saunders offense is ill-suited for Campbell's strengths. Certain offenses fit certain QBs well; Joe Montana was tailor made for the West Coast Offense (which emphasized his accuracy and quick decision making), but would have certainly struggled more in a vertical passing attack (which is more suited to a strong-armed quarterback).

The Saunders offense, watching Collins execute it very effectively, is more about throwing to spots, and timing. You don't need a strong arm...because you're not trying to squeeze the ball in anywhere. You're throwing to predetermined spots on the field.

Saunders offense does not fit Campbell well, because he isn't a timing guy. I think he'd thrive in an offense where he's allowed to challenge the defense more...because he's got the arm to do it. Put him in an offense that throws more 20 yard outs and ins, and I think he'd be great.

Put him in a timing offense, and he struggled more.

In my personal opinion, good coaches tailor their systems to fit their players strength, instead of trying to shoe-horn players to fit their system.

CanesSkins26 wrote: If Saunders goes then there is no reason to keep Collins around. There is no point in keeping a 37 year old qb who has to learn a new system. The main reason why Collins was successful was because he knew Al's system so well. Take away the system and you take away Collins' biggest selling point. If Al's goes expect at least 1 year of offensive futility.

Just one year of offensive futility? Well, that's better than 4 years of offensive futility for which we just emerged from......for which you seem eager to return to.

And just as a correction, Collins is 36, not 37. And again, wear and tear wise, he's much younger due to not playing much over the past 10 years of his career. And no, Collins selling point initially WAS that he knew the system and could be a back up and help Jason learn it. Now that Collins has played, and played extremely well, he has a new selling point....he played much better than Campbell. And knowing or not knowing any particular system has nothing to do with the ability to hit an open receiver downfield for which Campbell struggled and Collins excelled. Period. It's football....and Al Saunders didn't invent the forward pass. They were doing this in the days of leather helmuts!

Look...you've been making excuses for Campbell for a year now.....and until Collins actually played (and proved your reasoning faulty), your speculations about all the reasons why Campbell wasn't being successful covered everything from needing better receivers to changing the music played at halftime. And none of it could be disproven, though I said all along that I thought you might be wrong about these things.

Now I don't know why you seem more interested in seeing Campbell play than you are in seeing the Redskins win. Why is that? Is it because you just can't bring yourself to say "maybe I was wrong"? It's really not that tough.....we're all wrong now and then....and it's better to just admit it, instead of banging your head against a brick wall, insisting that your head is harder.

I would think all Redskin fans would be interested in winning first.....that's what I'm interested in seeing, whether it's Campbell or Collins or anyone else playing the QB spot.

I have no personal axe to grind regarding Campbell. I'm merely pointing out his lack of production. I'd love to see him magically become Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And I would settle for Campbell being remotely close to either. It would be nice to have 50 TD passes in a season, but I'd settle for 25. Unfortunately, we got less than 1 TD per game from Campbell (12), and that doesn't cut it in today's NFL. And I don't see this magically changing in the next three to four months during the offseason, not even if the new HC brings in Benny Hinn to lay his hand upon Jason's forehead.

Campbell's problems are not the "System". I'm sick of hearing about "the System". The problems for which JC suffers are the same problems that were identified in the scouting reports on him in College.

His slower than optimal decision making was a main point in the many scouting reports I read, along with his tendencies to lock in on one target....hold the ball too long....to his mechanically slow release. The bottom line on the reports concluded that the biggest concern was if he could adapt to the speed of the NFL.....not how quickly he would learn Al Saunders offense. And all of these shortcomings have proven to be problematic, and would be with anyone's offense. So 4 years in an Auburn jersey and another 3 years in a Redskin jersey hasn't changed those issues significantly. They're still there.

Need I remind anyone here that for every successful college QB that becomes a successful NFL QB, there are a dozen that don't make it? Many college superstars fall flat on their faces in the NFL, while others who are overlooked in the draft become excellent NFL QBs.

The reality is that with all college prospects, the odds are against you, not with you. And fundemental issues of the nature that Campbell has struggled with has nothing to do with "the system". He had 4 different offenses over his 4 year college career, yet he was successful there.

This is about his ability or inability to adjust to the speed of the NFL game which starts with the ability to quickly identify coverages, making quick decisions, and getting the ball out of his hands and into the playmakers hands quickly. That's football, regardless of the volume, complexity, of author of the playbook.

I don't mean to confuse the issues by injecting basic common sense here, but really.....this is about what's best for the Redskins, and not what's best for Jason Campbell. Let Jason's mom worry about Jason.

Now if Collins and Campbell were airline pilots instead of NFL QBs....which plane would you get on at National Airport? Collins plane or Campbell's?

Where sanity is lost is the fact that most post on here are not even considering salary cap implications, players current team obligations and what we would need to give to get a player. The key is getting a player of need for good value. I have not seen that mentioned yet.

frankcal20 wrote:Where sanity is lost is the fact that most post on here are not even considering salary cap implications, players current team obligations and what we would need to give to get a player. The key is getting a player of need for good value. I have not seen that mentioned yet.

I think that securing a quality QB for the long term is a top priority for all teams who don't have one, and the Redskins have never seemed incapable of finding cap space for signing players they feel would help the team.

Portis has said he's willing to restructure. Brunnel is likely to be gone, and Collins will only be an issue if we resign him to a bigger deal.

Every year there are cap issues, and every year those issues are managed. What's different this year?

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote: If Saunders goes then there is no reason to keep Collins around. There is no point in keeping a 37 year old qb who has to learn a new system. The main reason why Collins was successful was because he knew Al's system so well. Take away the system and you take away Collins' biggest selling point. If Al's goes expect at least 1 year of offensive futility.

Just one year of offensive futility? Well, that's better than 4 years of offensive futility for which we just emerged from......for which you seem eager to return to.

And just as a correction, Collins is 36, not 37. And again, wear and tear wise, he's much younger due to not playing much over the past 10 years of his career. And no, Collins selling point initially WAS that he knew the system and could be a back up and help Jason learn it. Now that Collins has played, and played extremely well, he has a new selling point....he played much better than Campbell. And knowing or not knowing any particular system has nothing to do with the ability to hit an open receiver downfield for which Campbell struggled and Collins excelled. Period. It's football....and Al Saunders didn't invent the forward pass. They were doing this in the days of leather helmuts!

Look...you've been making excuses for Campbell for a year now.....and until Collins actually played (and proved your reasoning faulty), your speculations about all the reasons why Campbell wasn't being successful covered everything from needing better receivers to changing the music played at halftime. And none of it could be disproven, though I said all along that I thought you might be wrong about these things.

Now I don't know why you seem more interested in seeing Campbell play than you are in seeing the Redskins win. Why is that? Is it because you just can't bring yourself to say "maybe I was wrong"? It's really not that tough.....we're all wrong now and then....and it's better to just admit it, instead of banging your head against a brick wall, insisting that your head is harder.

I would think all Redskin fans would be interested in winning first.....that's what I'm interested in seeing, whether it's Campbell or Collins or anyone else playing the QB spot.

I have no personal axe to grind regarding Campbell. I'm merely pointing out his lack of production. I'd love to see him magically become Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And I would settle for Campbell being remotely close to either. It would be nice to have 50 TD passes in a season, but I'd settle for 25. Unfortunately, we got less than 1 TD per game from Campbell (12), and that doesn't cut it in today's NFL. And I don't see this magically changing in the next three to four months during the offseason, not even if the new HC brings in Benny Hinn to lay his hand upon Jason's forehead.

Campbell's problems are not the "System". I'm sick of hearing about "the System". The problems for which JC suffers are the same problems that were identified in the scouting reports on him in College.

His slower than optimal decision making was a main point in the many scouting reports I read, along with his tendencies to lock in on one target....hold the ball too long....to his mechanically slow release. The bottom line on the reports concluded that the biggest concern was if he could adapt to the speed of the NFL.....not how quickly he would learn Al Saunders offense. And all of these shortcomings have proven to be problematic, and would be with anyone's offense. So 4 years in an Auburn jersey and another 3 years in a Redskin jersey hasn't changed those issues significantly. They're still there.

Need I remind anyone here that for every successful college QB that becomes a successful NFL QB, there are a dozen that don't make it? Many college superstars fall flat on their faces in the NFL, while others who are overlooked in the draft become excellent NFL QBs.

The reality is that with all college prospects, the odds are against you, not with you. And fundemental issues of the nature that Campbell has struggled with has nothing to do with "the system". He had 4 different offenses over his 4 year college career, yet he was successful there.

This is about his ability or inability to adjust to the speed of the NFL game which starts with the ability to quickly identify coverages, making quick decisions, and getting the ball out of his hands and into the playmakers hands quickly. That's football, regardless of the volume, complexity, of author of the playbook.

I don't mean to confuse the issues by injecting basic common sense here, but really.....this is about what's best for the Redskins, and not what's best for Jason Campbell. Let Jason's mom worry about Jason.

Now if Collins and Campbell were airline pilots instead of NFL QBs....which plane would you get on at National Airport? Collins plane or Campbell's?

I started reading what you wrote but it was filled with so much nonsense that I stopped after the first few sentences.

Yes Collins is 36 now. He well be 37 by the start of next season. And I don't care how little he has played, he is still going to be 37 next season. Even without wear and tear, his arm is already weak and will only get weaker as he gets older. It's also much more difficult to recover from injuries as his age. How many 37 year old qb's do you see in the NFL playing well?

You can write page long posts all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Collins will very likely not be here next season if Saunders goes elsewhere. He isn't stupid. He knows where his bread is buttered. If some team is dumb enough to sign Collins to learn a new system and be their qb so be it. His skill set (timing, not having a strong arm) fit Saunders' system very well. However, his lack of arm strength would kill him in most NFL systems.

As for your idea of trading for Andersen, please. That is about as unrealistic of an idea as I have seen on this board for a while. For starters, it is going to take multiple picks to get him. This team needs starters at key positions and lots of depth, so trading away draft pick for a mistake-prone, inconsistent, and inaccurate qb makes zero sense. Anderson put up numbers but disappeared when the Browns needed him most. Being a qb is also a lot easier when you don't really bother to read defenses and just force the ball to Braylon Edwards and Winslow on just about every passing play.

You can gripe and complain about JC's development all you want but it doesn't change the fact that young qb's need time to develop. Eli Manning has been a starter for 4 years and has started 61 NFL games and only know is he finally starting to fulfill his potential. There are lots of great qb's that need more than a year and half to start playing at consistently high level.

CanesSkins26 wrote:.. I started reading what you wrote but it was filled with so much nonsense that I stopped after the first few sentences.

That means that you missed one of the more interesting parts - I'll help out here and just post that section for you

RayNAustin wrote:Now I don't know why you seem more interested in seeing Campbell play than you are in seeing the Redskins win. Why is that? Is it because you just can't bring yourself to say "maybe I was wrong"? It's really not that tough.....we're all wrong now and then....and it's better to just admit it, instead of banging your head against a brick wall, insisting that your head is harder.

SkinsJock wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:.. I started reading what you wrote but it was filled with so much nonsense that I stopped after the first few sentences.

That means that you missed one of the more interesting parts - I'll help out here and just post that section for you

RayNAustin wrote:Now I don't know why you seem more interested in seeing Campbell play than you are in seeing the Redskins win. Why is that? Is it because you just can't bring yourself to say "maybe I was wrong"? It's really not that tough.....we're all wrong now and then....and it's better to just admit it, instead of banging your head against a brick wall, insisting that your head is harder.

For starters, I don't think that I'm wrong about JC. I think that he has all of the tools to be a very good NFL qb and just needs some more time to develop.

The problem that I have with this entire debate is that people like RayNAustin are taking a very short term approach and I think that that is a mistake. Starting Collins next season is like starting Brunell the past few seasons. It is a short term solution that doesn't help the team in the long run. Over the past 15 or so years we have been missing a franchise qb and we need to find that qb if we are going to be a top tier NFL franchise. Look at the teams in this year's playoffs. How long have Brady, Favre, Manning, Hasselbeck, Big Ben,

Eli, etc. been with their teams? Having a qb like Collins that can start for a year is pretty much worthless. Qb is by far the most important position in the NFL and we need some consistency and longevity at the position. One of the major differences between the teams that consistently reach the playoffs and those that don't is consistency at the qb spot. If Campbell isn't the guy to lead the Skins then find someone who is capable, not a 37 year old veteran who will be gone a in a year or two (if we resign Collins).

So I respect what RayNAustin says regarding Collins v. Campbell. He raises some very good points about Campbell's shortcoming and struggles. However, I think that the Collins v. Campbell debate completely misses the mark. Bottom line is that we need a franchise qb. Can JC be that qb? The jury is still out. Can Collins? The answer is no.

So sure, we can start Collins next season. But what happens after that? We aren't winning the Super Bowl next season. We'll have gone through another season with a veteran qb at the expensive of the development of a young qb. If Saunders stays for this season his contract is up after 08. So for 09 then you have a 38 year old Collins or a pissed off JC who still needs game experience and is in the last year of his contract, and possibly a new OC and new offensive system. So you're back to square 1 at that point.

Don't get me wrong CanesSkins - I was mainly just pulling your leg

I am not down on Campbell and am hopeful that he has everything we need in a QB - Ray is a little more convinced than I (and some others are) that Campbell will not be the QB that we expect and need.

I also feel that even if Campbell is not the next great QB of this team Collins is just a really good back-up in this system

Hopefully Campbell progresses with his quickness (both in reading what the defense is doing and his release) because if there is one thing Collins has shown it is that the Saunders/Gibbs system is really easy when you know what you are seeing and get the ball on its way a lot quicker than we have seen.

Campbell offers more upside but I am one that is a little nervous that he has that ability to be really great.

We are hopefully going to be adding to the offense and we should expect to see great improvement next year and will hopefully not have the severe injuries we had this year.

I hope we start the season with Campbell, Collins and a decent # 3 - Campbell will have seen what happened and should have made all the progress needed to take us back to being an offense that can both run the ball when we want to and complete a long pass if we have to. If Saunders is here then we all can be secure in the knowledge that we have a really good back-up if we need it. IF Campbell does not progress then we will need Collins until someone else can take over - Collins is a great back-up QB in Saunders type system.




HAIL

RayNAustin wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote: If Saunders goes then there is no reason to keep Collins around. There is no point in keeping a 37 year old qb who has to learn a new system. The main reason why Collins was successful was because he knew Al's system so well. Take away the system and you take away Collins' biggest selling point. If Al's goes expect at least 1 year of offensive futility.

Just one year of offensive futility? Well, that's better than 4 years of offensive futility for which we just emerged from......for which you seem eager to return to.

And just as a correction, Collins is 36, not 37. And again, wear and tear wise, he's much younger due to not playing much over the past 10 years of his career. And no, Collins selling point initially WAS that he knew the system and could be a back up and help Jason learn it. Now that Collins has played, and played extremely well, he has a new selling point....he played much better than Campbell. And knowing or not knowing any particular system has nothing to do with the ability to hit an open receiver downfield for which Campbell struggled and Collins excelled. Period. It's football....and Al Saunders didn't invent the forward pass. They were doing this in the days of leather helmuts!

Look...you've been making excuses for Campbell for a year now.....and until Collins actually played (and proved your reasoning faulty), your speculations about all the reasons why Campbell wasn't being successful covered everything from needing better receivers to changing the music played at halftime. And none of it could be disproven, though I said all along that I thought you might be wrong about these things.

Now I don't know why you seem more interested in seeing Campbell play than you are in seeing the Redskins win. Why is that? Is it because you just can't bring yourself to say "maybe I was wrong"? It's really not that tough.....we're all wrong now and then....and it's better to just admit it, instead of banging your head against a brick wall, insisting that your head is harder.

I would think all Redskin fans would be interested in winning first.....that's what I'm interested in seeing, whether it's Campbell or Collins or anyone else playing the QB spot.

I have no personal axe to grind regarding Campbell. I'm merely pointing out his lack of production. I'd love to see him magically become Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And I would settle for Campbell being remotely close to either. It would be nice to have 50 TD passes in a season, but I'd settle for 25. Unfortunately, we got less than 1 TD per game from Campbell (12), and that doesn't cut it in today's NFL. And I don't see this magically changing in the next three to four months during the offseason, not even if the new HC brings in Benny Hinn to lay his hand upon Jason's forehead.

Campbell's problems are not the "System". I'm sick of hearing about "the System". The problems for which JC suffers are the same problems that were identified in the scouting reports on him in College.

His slower than optimal decision making was a main point in the many scouting reports I read, along with his tendencies to lock in on one target....hold the ball too long....to his mechanically slow release. The bottom line on the reports concluded that the biggest concern was if he could adapt to the speed of the NFL.....not how quickly he would learn Al Saunders offense. And all of these shortcomings have proven to be problematic, and would be with anyone's offense. So 4 years in an Auburn jersey and another 3 years in a Redskin jersey hasn't changed those issues significantly. They're still there.

Need I remind anyone here that for every successful college QB that becomes a successful NFL QB, there are a dozen that don't make it? Many college superstars fall flat on their faces in the NFL, while others who are overlooked in the draft become excellent NFL QBs.

The reality is that with all college prospects, the odds are against you, not with you. And fundemental issues of the nature that Campbell has struggled with has nothing to do with "the system". He had 4 different offenses over his 4 year college career, yet he was successful there.

This is about his ability or inability to adjust to the speed of the NFL game which starts with the ability to quickly identify coverages, making quick decisions, and getting the ball out of his hands and into the playmakers hands quickly. That's football, regardless of the volume, complexity, of author of the playbook.

I don't mean to confuse the issues by injecting basic common sense here, but really.....this is about what's best for the Redskins, and not what's best for Jason Campbell. Let Jason's mom worry about Jason.

Now if Collins and Campbell were airline pilots instead of NFL QBs....which plane would you get on at National Airport? Collins plane or Campbell's?

I hope you have a job that pays by the word.

I don't think we'll be able to afford a QB who can beat out Campbell for the backup spot.

CanesSkins26 wrote:I started reading what you wrote but it was filled with so much nonsense that I stopped after the first few sentences.

Yes Collins is 36 now. He well be 37 by the start of next season. And I don't care how little he has played, he is still going to be 37 next season. Even without wear and tear, his arm is already weak and will only get weaker as he gets older. It's also much more difficult to recover from injuries as his age. How many 37 year old qb's do you see in the NFL playing well?

What a childish response. Oh boy, Collins is just steps away from the gerriatric ward....getting weaker by the minute. The old fart is about to kiel over, someone dial 911, quickly. Perhaps you should have read more, you might have learned something.

But to answer your question, Brett Favre is an old fart, who is one game away from the Super Bowl, and already talking about playing again next year. Garcia is another, for which TB would not have made the playoffs. And Hasselbeck getting close to your over the hill number (turning 33 this year). That's 3 of the 6 QBs in the NFC playoffs.

CanesSkins26 wrote:You can write page long posts all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Collins will very likely not be here next season if Saunders goes elsewhere. He isn't stupid. He knows where his bread is buttered. If some team is dumb enough to sign Collins to learn a new system and be their qb so be it. His skill set (timing, not having a strong arm) fit Saunders' system very well. However, his lack of arm strength would kill him in most NFL systems.

Oh really? It didn't seem to get him a starting role over the past 7 years with Saunders. I don't see how that is buttering his bread much. But to correct you, there are more "systems" than not which rely on timing patterns in the passing game. This is FAR from unique to Saunders. It's OK to have opinions, but you really should enhance your knowledge of the game so you can formulate better arguments.

CanesSkins26 wrote:As for your idea of trading for Andersen, please. That is about as unrealistic of an idea as I have seen on this board for a while. For starters, it is going to take multiple picks to get him. This team needs starters at key positions and lots of depth, so trading away draft pick for a mistake-prone, inconsistent, and inaccurate qb makes zero sense. Anderson put up numbers but disappeared when the Browns needed him most. Being a qb is also a lot easier when you don't really bother to read defenses and just force the ball to Braylon Edwards and Winslow on just about every passing play.

You are wrong...wrong, wrong and wrong. Nothing about this paragragh is accurate. First, it won't take multiple picks to get him, (as in several)only 2 picks, and unless Cleveland puts the franchise tag on him and pay him Brady/Manning money (highly unlikely), at the most, it will take a 1st and a 3rd. They've already said they'd consider deals for him, so he is on the table. What is so unrealistic about that? The only twist would be if they are able to talk him into signing another contract before free agency begins.....and I can't believe his agent would be that stupid, but stranger things have happened.

Secondly, those numbers you speak of so casually were 29 TD passes (forced, if you say so), which puts him 5th in the NFL in passing TD's behind only Brady, Romo, Peyton Manning, and Big Ben. Pretty good company to keep considering his inexperience. The Browns finsihed 8-3 over the last 11 games, and 3-1 over the last 4. How is that disappearing? The Browns had no defense. They fired the D-coordinator because of it. Without Anderson's production, the Browns would have been the same old Browns, just like they were last year at 4-12 or worse.

CanesSkins26 wrote: You can gripe and complain about JC's development all you want but it doesn't change the fact that young qb's need time to develop. Eli Manning has been a starter for 4 years and has started 61 NFL games and only know is he finally starting to fulfill his potential. There are lots of great qb's that need more than a year and half to start playing at consistently high level.

Read my lips.....ANDERSON has relatively the same experience level as Campbell, and he doesn't have as good of a team around him as does Campbell, yet his production was 2 1/2 times Campbell's 12 TD's to 11 ints.

As for Eli......the NYG traded the FARM to get him, and are trying to salvage what has turned out to be a pretty big mistake in hindsight. So if you are comparing Campbell to Eli, I think you are barking up the wrong tree....because that would be my tree, Pal. ut I agree with your comparison of Jason to Eli. Both have had slow, disappointing progress thus far....and in no way resemble franchise level QBs.

Eli will NEVER be a great QB, and he certainly is not a QB to trade the farm for. He is only now becoming a serviceable QB after 4 years of struggling with mediocrity, and no one, including the NYG would go back and do that deal again, knowing what they know now. Campbell is looking like the same deal.

Name me ONE great QB that took 60 games to show greatness? Just one in the history of the NFL ??? You can't. How about 40 games? Nope.

Brady, Manning, Marino, Favre, Elway, Montana, Jurgensen, Unitas, Namath, Stauback, all of them showed greatness by their 20th game starting or sooner..

As for young current, real good QB's........Palmer, Rothlisberger, Romo, Anderson, Cutler, Rivers, they all began producing early on.

Romo's production has been remarkable, but he has a pretty solid team around him too. Far better than the Browns. So Anderson's numbers are incredible considering what he has to work with (defense ranked 30th).

Give me a QB...any QB that can throw 29 TD passes for the Redskins this year, and you'll see us winning the NFC East and being favorites to go to the Super Bowl.

You are wrong...wrong, wrong and wrong. Nothing about this paragragh is accurate. First, it won't take multiple picks to get him, (as in several)only 2 picks, and unless Cleveland puts the franchise tag on him and pay him Brady/Manning money (highly unlikely), at the most, it will take a 1st and a 3rd.

Oh that's brilliant. With holes at DE, DT, CB, WR, and Oline you want to trade a 1st and a 3rd rounder for Derek Anderson?? Luckily even Vinny isn't that incompetent. With no 4th rounder that would leave us with only a 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder. Where are you going to fill the rest of our holes? In case you missed the Seahawks game we need a lot of help in the trenches. Trading picks for a qb isn't going to fix that problem.

Secondly, those numbers you speak of so casually were 29 TD passes (forced, if you say so), which puts him 5th in the NFL in passing TD's behind only Brady, Romo, Peyton Manning, and Big Ben. Pretty good company to keep considering his inexperience.

Anderson was also second in the NFL in int's with 19. The only NFC qb's with more were Kitna and Eli (both with 20). As for accuracy, which I have seen you rip JC for, Anderson only completed only 56.5% of his passes, good for 28th in the NFL. Only Eli, Trent Edwards, Cleo Lemmon, Kellen Clemmons, and Rex Grossman had a worse percentage. And despite all of those td's that you rave about, Anderson still finished 17th in the NFL in qb rating. JC, despite being awful according to you, was 20th in the NFL in qb rating. So your idea is to trade our 1st and 3rd rounders for a qb who barely finished ahead of JC in terms of qb rating (only separated by 4.9 points). Please tell me that you aren't serious about that?

The Browns finsihed 8-3 over the last 11 games, and 3-1 over the last 4. How is that disappearing? The Browns had no defense. They fired the D-coordinator because of it. Without Anderson's production, the Browns would have been the same old Browns, just like they were last year at 4-12 or worse.

The Browns most important game of the season was their week 16 game againt the Bengals. If they had won that game they would have clinched a playoff berth. Instead they lost and the Titans won the following week and made it in instead. In that crucial game your boy Anderson managed a 53.4 qb rating and threw 4 picks trying to constantly force the ball to Kellen Winslow.

Name me ONE great QB that took 60 games to show greatness? Just one in the history of the NFL ??? You can't. How about 40 games? Nope.

Eli's first 4 seasons:

2004
48.2 completion %, 6 td's, 9 int's, 1043 yards, 55.4 qb rating

2005
52.8 completion %, 24 td's, 17 int's, 3762 yards, 75.9 qb rating

2006
57.7 completion % , 24 td's, 18 int's, 3244 yards, 77.0 qb rating

2007
56.1 completion %, 23 td's, 20 int's, 3336 yards, 73.9 qb rating

Elways' first 4 season:

1983
47.5 completon %, 7 td's, 14 int's, 1663 yards, 54.9 qb rating

1984
56.3 completion %, 18 td's, 15 int's, 2598 yards, 76.8 qb rating

1985
54.0 completion %, 22 td's, 23 int's, 3891 yards, 70.2 qb rating

1986
55.6 completion %, 19 td's, 13 int's, 3485 yards, 79.0

In Elway's 4th season (1986) he led the Broncos to the Super Bowl. This is Eli's 4th season and the Giants are one game away from the Super Bowl. Elway is considered one of the best qb's in NFL history and it took him a few years as well to develop into a great qb. I don't think that Eli is all that great but he is showing that the Giants made the right decision in being patient with him.

CanesSkins26 wrote:For starters, I don't think that I'm wrong about JC. I think that he has all of the tools to be a very good NFL qb and just needs some more time to develop.

I could provide you a list (longer than the wordy response earlier) of QB prospects who had all of the tools but failed to deliver. The list of one's who did deliver is way shorter.

The issues I see with Campbell have little to do with development time, and more to do with the nature of the guy. And people are who they are, and time isn't going to change that. He is slow and methodical....with slow being the operative term here. You can see it in his body language, and even in his speach patterns. His calm demeanor is just a part of that basic nature which seems to lack the intensity, fire, and decisiveness one would like to see in a leader. If there is any specific reason to knock Eli Manning, it would be this similar Howdy Dudy personality that is missing the swagger of his brother Peyton. All of the great ones have it....that swagger and decisiveness is owned, not learned. It's a personailty trait. You either have it or you don't.

CanesSkins26 wrote:The problem that I have with this entire debate is that people like RayNAustin are taking a very short term approach and I think that that is a mistake. Starting Collins next season is like starting Brunell the past few seasons. It is a short term solution that doesn't help the team in the long run. Over the past 15 or so years we have been missing a franchise qb and we need to find that qb if we are going to be a top tier NFL franchise. Look at the teams in this year's playoffs. How long have Brady, Favre, Manning, Hasselbeck, Big Ben, Eli, etc. been with their teams? Having a qb like Collins that can start for a year is pretty much worthless. Qb is by far the most important position in the NFL and we need some consistency and longevity at the position. One of the major differences between the teams that consistently reach the playoffs and those that don't is consistency at the qb spot. If Campbell isn't the guy to lead the Skins then find someone who is capable, not a 37 year old veteran who will be gone a in a year or two (if we resign Collins).

So I respect what RayNAustin says regarding Collins v. Campbell. He raises some very good points about Campbell's shortcoming and struggles. However, I think that the Collins v. Campbell debate completely misses the mark. Bottom line is that we need a franchise qb. Can JC be that qb? The jury is still out. Can Collins? The answer is no.

I've never suggested that Collins is a long term solution. In fact, that's why I sugested we go after Anderson, however unrealistic you say that is.

But I'm glad to see that you are beginning to recognize that the "jury is still out" on Campbell. (That's exactly my point). And aside from Collins, we have no viable alternative if Campbell continues to underperform, or goes down again. If we proceed as if Campbell is a proven commodity, and allow Collins to leave, we have no backup plan, and we will just be back at square one THIS YEAR. Anything can happen two or three years down the road, I'm looking at what can be done now to hedge our bets on Campbell, and avoid going back to square one immediately[/quote]

CanesSkins26 wrote:So sure, we can start Collins next season. But what happens after that? We aren't winning the Super Bowl next season. We'll have gone through another season with a veteran qb at the expensive of the development of a young qb. If Saunders stays for this season his contract is up after 08. So for 09 then you have a 38 year old Collins or a pissed off JC who still needs game experience and is in the last year of his contract, and possibly a new OC and new offensive system. So you're back to square 1 at that point.

Who says we can't go to the super bowl next year? We could have gone to the Super Bowl this year had we managed to score 7 more points per game as we did in the last 4 regular season games. We were highly competitive in the toughest division in the NFC beating everyone in our division once, and should have won a couple of the three we lost. The first NYG game is a prime example. So no, there is no reason why we shouldn't have ended the season at 12-4, 13-3, and won the division this year (other than a lack of offensive production from Campbell).

Look how we lost.....GB 17-14, TB 19-13, Buf 17-16......we got beat this year twice, the rest we lost because we couldn't score TD's.

So I don't agree with your assessment that we aren't going anywhere next year anyway, so we might as well stick with Campbell to give him more experience. If you want to take that approach, then you need to clean house, and cut all of your high salary, aging vets like Portis, half the 0-line, half the d-line, and start over.....and prepare for a 3 year rebuild. I don't think we are even remotely close to requiring that kind of drastic measures.

CanesSkins26 wrote:Oh that's brilliant. With holes at DE, DT, CB, WR, and Oline you want to trade a 1st and a 3rd rounder for Derek Anderson?? Luckily even Vinny isn't that incompetent. With no 4th rounder that would leave us with only a 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounder. Where are you going to fill the rest of our holes? In case you missed the Seahawks game we need a lot of help in the trenches. Trading picks for a qb isn't going to fix that problem.

We were missing half of our starting o-line due to injuries in Seattle. And you can only carry so many o-linemen. Sorry, but I don't see how a 1st and 3rd round pick will fill all of those holes you see. Which two unproven rookies did you have in mind that would fill all 5 of those gaping holes? Given the Redskins history of draft successes, I'd say we have a better chance at getting value out of the QB. And you can scratch that WR off your list. We have receivers, we just need a QB that can find them.

CanesSkins26 wrote: Anderson was also second in the NFL in int's with 19.

Wrong. I'm going to do this on every one of your inaccurate statements, since you continue to do it. He was tied for 4th in int's with Romo. Kitna, E. Manning, and Palmer and Romo being 1,2 and 3 and 4. And of them, only Romo had a better TD to Int ratio. You can't compare Kitna with 18 TD's and 20 int's as being remotely close to Anderson's 29 TD's to 19 int's. There is a big difference. 77 points to be exact.

CanesSkins26 wrote:
Eli's first 4 seasons:

2004
48.2 completion %, 6 td's, 9 int's, 1043 yards, 55.4 qb rating

2005
52.8 completion %, 24 td's, 17 int's, 3762 yards, 75.9 qb rating

2006
57.7 completion % , 24 td's, 18 int's, 3244 yards, 77.0 qb rating

2007
56.1 completion %, 23 td's, 20 int's, 3336 yards, 73.9 qb rating

Elways' first 4 season:

1983
47.5 completon %, 7 td's, 14 int's, 1663 yards, 54.9 qb rating

1984
56.3 completion %, 18 td's, 15 int's, 2598 yards, 76.8 qb rating

1985
54.0 completion %, 22 td's, 23 int's, 3891 yards, 70.2 qb rating

1986
55.6 completion %, 19 td's, 13 int's, 3485 yards, 79.0

In Elway's 4th season (1986) he led the Broncos to the Super Bowl. This is Eli's 4th season and the Giants are one game away from the Super Bowl. Elway is considered one of the best qb's in NFL history and it took him a few years as well to develop into a great qb. I don't think that Eli is all that great but he is showing that the Giants made the right decision in being patient with him.

LMAO. Now who is being unrealistic here? Are you actually comparing Eli manning to John Elway? Eli can't shine Elway's shoes, for God's sake, For years, Elway WAS the Denver Broncos, and he carried that team with one arm while throwing TD's with the other. But in his first 2 years Eli was way better than Campbell has been, I'll grant you that.

And I'll admit I may be unfairly harsh on Eli. His numbers are actually pretty decent, but his consistency is too erratic. He looks like his brother one game and his mother the next.

But cherry pick stats all you want. I've got a better example for you to use.......Terry Bradshaw. look up his stats for the first 5 years. They are horrible, and by comparison, Eli does look like John Elway, hahaha. But Terry has a ring on every finger. So much for stats.

I have another comparison to offer you that will show the error of comparing stats OK. John Elway (16 Seasons) to Mystery Man (13 seasons) career stats:

Elway... Comp% 56.9, QB R 79.9....TD% 4.1 Int's 226..Yrds/G 220
MysMan..............59.6..........84.2........... 4.0.........106.............202

Mystery Man's stats seem to be a bit better than Elway's for their entire careers, and not just a selective portion. Elway wasn't as accurate, worse QB rating, and threw more than twice the number of int's. Care to guess who the mystery man is?

A drum roll please.......the Mystery Man is Mark Brunell. Surprised? I guess since the stats don't lie, Mark Brunell must be better than Elway. Who would have thunk it?

The one stat that I left out is the one that matters, and the one that separates Brunell from Elway. Touchdowns. Brunell threw 187, and Elway threw 300, many of which were likely thrown in the last two minutes to win games.

I don't know what else I can say to you that you'll understand if you don't understand that. It is POINTS that win games, and not completion percentages, or QB ratings, or yards, or any of the other various stats you can compare.

Great QB's are judged by POINTS and WINS. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the scoreboard, and nothing else matters much.

Anderson's 29 TDs to 19 int's is an excellent ratio....not ideal, but he is young, and I'm sure if given more time to develop, will only get better.

RayNAustin wrote:

And people are who they are, and time isn't going to change that. He is slow and methodical....with slow being the operative term here. You can see it in his body language, and even in his speach patterns. His calm demeanor is just a part of that basic nature which seems to lack the intensity, fire, and decisiveness one would like to see in a leader.

Your description could have been of Sammy Baugh... and we know how he turned out, now, don't we?

Countertrey wrote:RayNAustin wrote:

And people are who they are, and time isn't going to change that. He is slow and methodical....with slow being the operative term here. You can see it in his body language, and even in his speach patterns. His calm demeanor is just a part of that basic nature which seems to lack the intensity, fire, and decisiveness one would like to see in a leader.

Your description could have been of Sammy Baugh... and we know how he turned out, now, don't we?

I don't think so. Don't confuse hillbilly with slow LOL. Sammy talked a mile a minute, and used some pretty colorful language as well.

Brunell is gone either way I beleive. Regardless of the coach he just isn't going to be in touch with the system, or in touch with the team... He just seems already off the team to me... I say JC starts, Collins #2.....3?? You tell me.