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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:00 pm
by CanesSkins26
Collins most likely will get a big free agent contract to a team in need of a qb, he may be too expensive for us to keep.
No he wont. He will be 37 years old at the start of next season and he is purely a system qb. No team is going to sign him to be a starting qb or give him big money.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:26 pm
by old-timer
funsho2 wrote:Its funny when a QB leads a team to the playoffs.....and his hot....people act like he is the best thing since slice bread. Jeff garcia last year......if collins was that good how come he has been a Backup all of his career lol.
Brilliant logic. Collins has won every game he's played in and has the second highest QB rating in the league, and just got us into the playoffs when practically everyone had written us off. The team has done a complete 180 in terms of improvement since he has been runniing the offense.
In contrast, Campbell lost 4 in a row before he got injured and made tons of rookie mistakes that cost us games during that time and before that. And your conclusion is that Campbell should start ASAP? My advice is don't quit your day job.
No one else wants to say it so I will. The only reason why we are in the playoffs at all is because Campbell got injured. People here seem to think he's the next Joe Montana based on his raw talent alone. That's BS. Ramsey had raw talent too, and he never made it as a pro QB. Randall Cunningham had more raw talent than either of them and HE was ultimately a disappointment.
Campbell isn't a great QB until he is.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:29 pm
by old-timer
old-timer wrote:funsho2 wrote:Its funny when a QB leads a team to the playoffs.....and his hot....people act like he is the best thing since slice bread. Jeff garcia last year......if collins was that good how come he has been a Backup all of his career lol.
Brilliant logic. Collins has won every game he's played in and has the second highest QB rating in the league, and just got us into the playoffs when practically everyone had written us off. The team has done a complete 180 in terms of improvement since he has been runniing the offense.
In contrast, Campbell lost 4 in a row before he got injured and made tons of rookie mistakes that cost us games during that time and before that. And your conclusion is that Campbell should start ASAP? My advice is don't quit your day job.
No one else wants to say it so I will. The only reason why we are in the playoffs at all is because Campbell got injured. People here seem to think he's the next Joe Montana based on his raw talent alone. That's BS. Ramsey had raw talent too, and he never made it as a pro QB. Randall Cunningham had more raw talent than either of them and HE was ultimately a disappointment.
Campbell isn't a great QB until he is.
It's not like this is unknown on the team, either:
"I think Todd's opening things up for everybody the way he's spraying the ball around," Portis said. "Teams got to play us honest."
The passing game has far outpaced the running game (averaging just 3.3 yards per carry during this four-game streak), and the coaches have shown more confidence in throwing with a lead with Collins.
"With Todd that's to be expected because he knows the [offense] well," Moss said, "and the coaches don't have to second-guess him, saying that he's not going to make one of those decisions that [they] don't want him to make. I think when you have a young guy like Jason throwing the ball, we know he's going to be great, but at times you try to say, 'Let's make sure we don't put him in situations where we hurt him because it's too soon where we told him to do something that he wasn't ready for.' "
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:46 pm
by CanesSkins26
No one else wants to say it so I will. The only reason why we are in the playoffs at all is because Campbell got injured.
Collins has been a major reason for us making the playoffs, but to say that we are only in the playoffs because JC got injured is just stupid. CP and Moss finally look healthy and are playing their best at the right time and the defense has stepped up and is creating turnovers. To me that is just as important to our success as Todd Collins.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:09 pm
by 1fan4ramsey
It's simple, these old sayings hold true: "ride the hot hand", "keep doing what gotcha there"...etc. You can't dispute the fact that Collin's qb rating is one of the tops in the league the past few weeks. You just can't sit him at this point, everyone understands that, why are we talking about it. The start of next season though is a different story.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:00 pm
by PulpExposure
CanesSkins26 wrote:No one else wants to say it so I will. The only reason why we are in the playoffs at all is because Campbell got injured.
Collins has been a major reason for us making the playoffs, but to say that we are only in the playoffs because JC got injured is just stupid. CP and Moss finally look healthy and are playing their best at the right time and the defense has stepped up and is creating turnovers. To me that is just as important to our success as Todd Collins.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's very limited to pin the 4 game win streak on Collins, or the 4 game loss streak on Campbell. The entire
team is
playing better.
For example, the defense has done a remarkable job the past 4 games. From a breakdown in today's Washington Post (print version):
In Games 1-12, defense gave up 21.4 ppg, 97.8 rushing yards per game, a 83.1 QB rating, and a 3rd down conversion mark of 39.8%.
In the past 4 games, it's 13.3 ppg, 71.8 rushing yards per game, a 59.1 QB rating, and a 3rd down conversion mark of 25%.
I know Todd Collins has been playing great (and he has), but the defense has been lights out. Allowing 25% 3rd down conversions, 26 less ypg on the ground, QBs having 34 points less rating, and 8 less points per game...well that might have something to do with the winning streak, too?
No, it was Campbell's fault the defense was giving up over 21 points per game, right?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:28 pm
by old-timer
PulpExposure wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:No one else wants to say it so I will. The only reason why we are in the playoffs at all is because Campbell got injured.
Collins has been a major reason for us making the playoffs, but to say that we are only in the playoffs because JC got injured is just stupid. CP and Moss finally look healthy and are playing their best at the right time and the defense has stepped up and is creating turnovers. To me that is just as important to our success as Todd Collins.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's very limited to pin the 4 game win streak on Collins, or the 4 game loss streak on Campbell. The entire
team is
playing better.
For example, the defense has done a remarkable job the past 4 games. From a breakdown in today's Washington Post (print version):
In Games 1-12, defense gave up 21.4 ppg, 97.8 rushing yards per game, a 83.1 QB rating, and a 3rd down conversion mark of 39.8%.
In the past 4 games, it's 13.3 ppg, 71.8 rushing yards per game, a 59.1 QB rating, and a 3rd down conversion mark of 25%.
I know Todd Collins has been playing great (and he has), but the defense has been lights out. Allowing 25% 3rd down conversions, 26 less ypg on the ground, QBs having 34 points less rating, and 8 less points per game...well that might have something to do with the winning streak, too?
No, it was Campbell's fault the defense was giving up over 21 points per game, right?
The defense is playing better because they are on the field less. We have had far fewer 3-and-outs since Collins has been starting, for example, and thus much more clock time for our offense, meaning less for our defense. If you guys remember, many if not most of our losses happened in the second halves of games when our defense got tired. Just in the last game against Dallas, think back of the time of possession in the first half for us vs. Dallas. Not even close. (I have it at Dallas about 11 min, Wash 19). Collins had NO 3 and outs until he had two in the 4th quarter. Dallas had 3 before the half and 6 total. Yes, I do believe our defense is able to play much better, and close out wins better, because Collins has been keeping them off the field.
Added: Bears game? Five 3-and-outs before the half with Campbell starting. One 3-and-out afterwards with Collins starting. Time of possession before the half: Bears 17 1/2 min, Wash, 12 1/2 min. After the half: 50/50.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:18 pm
by mulkey
- Gibbs loves experienced QB's , This was mentioned earlier.
- Cilllins knows the system better than Saunders himself.
-Collins is getting rid of the ball and not taking allot of sacks or throwing interceptions
-The team is rallying behind Gibbs, Collins and Taylors passing.
-Not sure this would be happening behind Campbell. To many
interceptions when the game is on the line.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:07 pm
by PulpExposure
old-timer wrote:The defense is playing better because they are on the field less. We have had far fewer 3-and-outs since Collins has been starting, for example, and thus much more clock time for our offense, meaning less for our defense.
As far as I remember it, when Collins is in, they continue to call plays aggressively on offense, whereas when Campbell was in, in the second half with a lead, it always became the prevent offense. Run against a stacked defense, run against the stack, pass on 3rd and 8.
It's a lot easier to sustain an offense when there exists
some question as to if you're going to run or pass on 1st and 2nd down.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:15 am
by 1niksder
Bram's Blog wrote:QB Jason Campbell is said
to be a "long way away" from returning to full practice meaning Todd Collins is the starter for this weekend's playoff game in Seattle with Campbell likely remaining inactive.. Mark Brunell would remain the #2, Sam Hollenbach, the #3.. What "long way away" means in terms of his recovery from a dislocated kneecap is unknown, however popular belief is that with Collins posting the numbers he is, this is his show regardless of Campbell's availability..
The team is hopeful that Jason will return to be available at some point as the #2 at worse..
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:50 am
by roybus14
Sit JC for the rest of the season and have him see how a guy with years of experience in Al's system runs the offense correctly.
This is no indictment on JC nor am I calling for his head.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:53 pm
by RayNAustin
I think the situation is very clear to objective minds. The entire team is playing better true....but why is the subject of debate.
I've said all year that between flashes of promise, JC has missed a lot of opportunities, and that he was holding the ball too long. Doing that contributes to sacks, pressures, and turnovers, as well a too many three and outs. But what I haven't heard anyone talk about are some of the more subtle things that collins does better, which I think has really helped increase points on the board.
For instance, there have been some redzone play action fakes and draws that have led to TD's running that we also hadn't seen much of. I remember 1 in particular that was outstanding with Collins doing a pump fake which held the LB's proir to handing off, and the result was a score.
And this is the real assistance being given to the defense by the offense....POINTS. TD's instead of FG's. That keeps the momentum running our way, and allows the defense to play more aggressively. Much easier to take some risks when you have a double digit lead instead of a 3 pointer.
As for offensive play calling....it's also much easier to be more aggressive when the QB is throwing strikes, and God knows Collins has been hitting the open guys on the numbers. Can anyone recall many bad throws? Any overthrown deep balls to open receivers?
Campbell has a tendency to zero in on certain favorite targets i.e. Moss and CC, which allows defenses to focus on shutting down those targets. Collins has spread the ball around much better....Portis has more catches in space...and Caldwell has been more involved also.
What this all boils down to is just better QB play period. Collins is utilizing all of the weapons on offense which means that opposing defenses have to play much more honest. He also recognizes coverages much better, and sees when his outside guys are one on one. The TD to Moss against the Cowboys was that nail in the coffin we have all been waiting for all year and never got.
JC has a long way to go in many of these areas, and Collins play has highlighted that profoundly.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:55 pm
by SkinsJock
RayNAustin wrote:... JC has a long way to go in many of these areas, and Collins play has highlighted that profoundly.
This is exactly why I am so anxious to get Cambell back on the field -
I know that will most likely be next year but if Collins can do all this I just am very confident that given all the talent that Campbell has he will be a much more effective QB than Collins
Next year Cambell and Collins (hopefully) will be our QBs and IF Cambell does not show very quickly that he has benefitted from all this then Collins can take over again - this is another reason to hope Collins is here next year
I have a feeling that if we can get Campbell and Saunders (Gibbs) into a better relationship and trust in each other, Cambell will be awesome running the Redskins offense for many years - that is the huge upside - Collins is older - Campbell needs to improve, yes, but he offers many years of service.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:42 pm
by Cappster
I hope Campbell is healthy enough to backup Collins in the playoffs. I want Collins to stay the quarterback for now because he gives us the best chance to win.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:57 pm
by SkinsJock
Cappster wrote:I hope Campbell is healthy enough to backup Collins in the playoffs. I want Collins to stay the quarterback for now because he gives us the best chance to win.
It might be nice BUT I have a feeling that we will see Brunell if Collins has to come off the field - I think that they (Gibbs/Saunders) will not put Campbell or his knee to the test - I just feel that knee joints are too fragile and can get really tested/banged up in a game.
IF we get to the Super Bowl and he is still not at least 100% according to Tyer, I still think Brunell will play - Gibbs and Saunders are not going to risk a future when they (Gibbs & Saunders) seem to not be as wary of Brunell as we are (well, except for TRO)
I think that if we have learned anything from this it is that Campbell needs to get his mind and his mechanics to operate a lot quicker - that will be a priority this off-season - if he cannot get that speed up, then Collins will be starting next season and we will need a young, future great, QB
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:58 pm
by por-tiz2skins
Said hes likely out for the season and Collins deserves it all right now.Where hot in the O with him and JC should just stay healthy and take,simple notes.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:12 pm
by PulpExposure
por-tiz2skins wrote:Said hes likely out for the season and Collins deserves it all right now.Where hot in the O with him and JC should just stay healthy and take,simple notes.
I love the use of the comma.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:17 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Jason Campbell has been declared out by the Redskins for this weekend. He will not suit up. Stop speculating.
Todd Collins starts, Mark Brunell backs up. Let us support ALL your players on the field. Period
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:02 pm
by TeeterSalad
A big factor in winning our last 4 was not turning the ball over more than the bad guys. T.C. hasn't thrown picks, but he does fumble now and then. J.C. throws picks when we need points the most, and fumbles half the time he is hit. I'd like to see J.C. take over the team eventually, but right now you have to go with Collins throughout the playoffs...depending on how well he does and how far the skins go, there may be QB controversy in the offseason.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:12 pm
by Assasin atm
TeeterSalad wrote:A big factor in winning our last 4 was not turning the ball over more than the bad guys. T.C. hasn't thrown picks, but he does fumble now and then. J.C. throws picks when we need points the most, and fumbles half the time he is hit. I'd like to see J.C. take over the team eventually, but right now you have to go with Collins throughout the playoffs...depending on how well he does and how far the skins go, there may be QB controversy in the offseason.
Theres gona be no quarterback controversey this offseason. Jason is the game 1 starter next year unless he's hurt. Jason Campbell threw picks because he's young and put in a situation he shouldnt have been in- in the first place. Shady playcalling and coaching put him in many do or die situations that could have been avoided. Im totally for him being the starter however long we are in the playoffs. Todd is hot right now but the key words are "right now". He's not a 16 game starter or a franchise quaterback. The only way is see him even being considered for the starting job going into training camp is if he leads the skins to the SB. The man is hot but he's not the man.
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:08 am
by RayNAustin
TeeterSalad wrote:A big factor in winning our last 4 was not turning the ball over more than the bad guys. T.C. hasn't thrown picks, but he does fumble now and then. J.C. throws picks when we need points the most, and fumbles half the time he is hit. I'd like to see J.C. take over the team eventually, but right now you have to go with Collins throughout the playoffs...depending on how well he does and how far the skins go, there may be QB controversy in the offseason.
True. But an even bigger factor I think is Collins is putting more points on the board. Although Collins hasn't had enough games to be ranked in the QB ranking, his QB rating is second only to Brady, and his yards per completion is #1. That means he isn't just padding stats with short safe throws. He's getting the ball down field and that is why this team is now winning instead of losing.
As for Campbell being the man, and Collins being too old.....no way. Collins is a young fresh 36 with way fewer miles on him than say Jeff Garcia (37), or Kitna (35), or Warner (36) or Favre (38)......never mind 44 year old Testaverde.
Collins could easily play 2-3 more years at the level he's playing now. To me, come springtime, there will be open competition (or should be) for the starter. That's the way it is with every other position.
Let's face it....what is this "tremendous talent" JC has demonstrated? He can run when he needs to....and he has a strong arm. OK, what else? Has he demonstrated skill at reading defenses quickly? At scoring lots of points? At getting the ball to open receivers? At making clutch plays in the 4th quarter? No, no, no and no.
I am TIRED of hearing about all of this "talent". I haven't seen it demonstrated on the field with points and wins, which is the only real measure of talent that counts.
Take golf. There are guys out there on the LDA tour that can hit drives 400 yards and more....30 or 40 yards past Tiger Woods.....but they aren't out there on the PGA Tour, and they don't stand a chance at competing with PGA tour players because there is a LOT more to golf than hitting the ball a mile.
JC's strong arm means nothing if he isn't accurate. That strong arm means nothing if he can't quickly identify coverages and run through his progressions quickly and get the ball in the hands of his play makers.
Jeff George had all the talent in the world.....much more than Campbell....but where did that get him? Jay Schroeder demonstrated much more ability much sooner than Campbell has so far. Ramsey had lots of talent.
This game isn't about potential, it's about production. Physical talent means nothing without the mental skills NECESSARY to play at NFL speed. And Campbell has had PLENTY OF TIME to begin demonstrating his ability, but has yet to do that in any consistent manner.
He spent a year and a half studying. He had the last half of last year as the starter, and 12 1/2 games this year. His record was 7-13. And we experienced the same continuing problems as a team with him as the starting QB. We moved the ball pretty well and pretty often....but failed to make the plays that resulted in TD's. And for the most part, he was totally ineffective in the second half of games, which is why we continued to lose so many games after dominating in the first half. Opposing defenses were able to figure him out at halftime, come out and stop us cold.
By contrast, Jay Schroeder started his first 5 games at the end of the 1985 season as a true rookie. In 1986, his first season as a starter (second year in the NFL) he threw for over 4,000 yards and 22 TD's and went to the pro bowl. But did Schroeder become the Redskin "Franchise" QB for years and years? No.
So I ask you again.....what has Campbell actually done that garners him this level of praise? So far, by comparison, he hasn't done SQUAT!
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:18 am
by jmshumakersr
Thank you, RayNAustin. At last, someone else who thinks Jason Campbell doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL quarterback. He's just not very good. Can't hit any long passes. Throws interceptions at the worst times. He needs to go. He's a bust. He stinks. If he had been the starter all the way through, the season would be over. If he returns as the starter next season I am finished with the Redskins.
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:59 am
by RayNAustin
One more question for everyone. Does anyone here actually think that Campbell has more physical talent than say Michael Vick? Don't lie and say yes.
But was Vick ever a great QB? No. He never made it to the real good stage, to be honest. After 6 years, his numbers didn't improve much. They were mediocre to average, with his only claim to fame being his ability to run. But never much of a threat other than that.
In reality, Vick didn't carry the Falcons franchise, he buried them. They stuck with Vick year after year, and with perfect timing, got rid of a talented backup only to lose Vick to the state pen. If after 6 years a QB isn't in the top tier, he never will be.
Look at the Texans. They had the talented David Carr, with all of the potential in the world, and stuck with him year after year ...5 years, and NO CIGAR.
The list of highly touted college QB's who actually become NFL stars is very short...far more busts than bullseyes. Campbell is not a bust at this stage yet, but he's only another year of "almost good" away from it.
If you have a backup that plays better, you better play the backup, and find out about your question marks later...because there are no guarantees about tomorrow or next year.
If I were the GM of the Redskins, I'd be talking to the Browns right now about trading Campbell and a pick for Anderson, since the Browns value the potential of Quinn more than the outstanding play of their rookie of lessor pedigree, and are willing to discuss trading him.
Then you have a guy like Tom Brady come along, who was a 6th round AFTER THOUGHT, ignored by most talent evaluators in the NFL. He wasn't particularly fast or anything special in the physical talent category. And look what he became very quickly.
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:48 am
by RayNAustin
jmshumakersr wrote:Thank you, RayNAustin. At last, someone else who thinks Jason Campbell doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL quarterback. He's just not very good. Can't hit any long passes. Throws interceptions at the worst times. He needs to go. He's a bust. He stinks. If he had been the starter all the way through, the season would be over. If he returns as the starter next season I am finished with the Redskins.
Well, I would stop just short of calling him a bust at this point, but I truly don't see any reason for this "blind faith" placed in him from others either.
He's shown flashes, but has been terrible in the second half this year. Even the Lions game, the majority of the points in the second half were set up or scored by the defense and special teams. A safety, a big punt return, and two int's were what turned that game into a blowout.....not Jason campbell.
So yes, he is the primary suspect for who is stealing points from us in the second half of games this year.
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:53 am
by Fios
Well, I am officially tired of this thread