2007 Patriots vs All time greats

[jeremyroyce]

I don't think that the Patriots would beat any of these teams.

[welch]

Sorry, Darth, I had a splendid reply, but was working with shaky hotel computer.

I did speculate (as memory serves it up) that

- Larry Brown might not have run over Wolfolk, but he certainly would have Tried. And Brown had a burst of speed that no one has...I can imagine Larry6 Brown running at hard Wolfolk and suddenly exploding probably upward to hit Wolfolk's chin with Brown's helmet at the last instant.

Later, that being the nature of things, Charley Taylor or Roy Jefferson would have waited for a chance to crack Wolfolk's knee. I remember Taylor hitting Jets DT Paul Crane with a crack-back, and ending Crane's career. I think Crane was about 60 pounds heavier, but that didn't help.

*

Yes, I have a special fondness for the Allen Redskins, the first Redskin team to make the playoffs since before I was born...although Graham had a better passing offense. My favorites, though, were the Gibbs teams.

Jurgensen, Taylor, Jefferson, Smith: when Allen let them play, they were a handful.

*

Of the other teams, the '91 Redskins would have handled theses Putz teams. Gibbs had too much offense, whether in a dome, on a dry field, or in the rain (think of the Falcons playoff...couldn't pass long, but how much would the Putz defense take of Lachey and Sclereth and Bostic and Jacoby before they started to sniffle? While trying to defend against Monk, Clark, and Sanders?

*

Are the Putz's quick enough to hold off Lawrence Taylor and the other '86 Giants?

*

[HEROHAMO]

I have to agree with the Panzie rules playing a factor. Most definatley.

No doubt - they would play a factor.

Back in the days you could unload on a quarterback and that was part of the game.

Let's realize you can still unload. It just can't be as late as it once could and you can't give head shots.

I remember Terry Bradshaw landed on his head one time. He was out for a whole quarter then came back in the game.

He was tough.

Remember how the Joe Montana used to get hit by the Redskins and the Giants and yet he still was successful.

Lucky for him he was not in the NFC East. Giants sort of ended it for him.

You just have to wonder how good Tom Brady would be under the old school rules?

This Redskin fan (since 1967) says "Damn good."

Also how healthy Tom Brady would be. There is no doubt in my mind that he would at least have missed a couple games by now.

They ALL have - except Favre? I saw Brady get crushed at least 3 times against the Giants. He had one or more 300 pouinders landing on him with full force. The passes were complete and he got up and kept playing. He's tough.

This day in age they protect the qb way too much. It is the panzie rules.

True.

BTW - How would the current 'Skins fare against the '72 'Skins??????

DarthMonk

I do not doubt Brady would be good. I just think the Pats dominance would not be so. These Pats would still be playoff bound but not undefeated.


The 72 Skins was before my time. I can go back as far as the 83 Raiders watching football. The Steelers replays I have seen are from video.

From what I see of the 72 Skins is from old highlights not enough for me to form an opinion of how great they were.

[PulpExposure]

I agree with you in general, Hero, in that this Patsie team doesn't match up with those great teams.

For example, I think the Patriots have got serious issues in their defensive secondary, a weakness that all of those teams would exploit. One thing I wanted to mention is that the Pats actually do have a run game. They just don't use it a whole lot; 115.6 ypg, and 4.1 ypc. It's just easier for them to throw to Moss & Welker, than to run the ball.

Also, the 1995 Cowboys would flat out destroy the Pats, not have a close game like you indicated. It makes me grit my teeth to say this, but that team was ridiculous (as ridiculous as our 1991 Skins were, which imho were up there with the 1985 Bears as all-time great teams). In 1995, they put 4 offensive linemen in the ProBowl...and 4 were named all-pro (not the same four...every lineman was named either ProBowl or All-Pro).

[HEROHAMO]

I agree with you in general, Hero, in that this Patsie team doesn't match up with those great teams.

For example, I think the Patriots have got serious issues in their defensive secondary, a weakness that all of those teams would exploit. One thing I wanted to mention is that the Pats actually do have a run game. They just don't use it a whole lot; 115.6 ypg, and 4.1 ypc. It's just easier for them to throw to Moss & Welker, than to run the ball.

Also, the 1995 Cowboys would flat out destroy the Pats, not have a close game like you indicated. It makes me grit my teeth to say this, but that team was ridiculous (as ridiculous as our 1991 Skins were, which imho were up there with the 1985 Bears as all-time great teams). In 1995, they put 4 offensive linemen in the ProBowl...and 4 were named all-pro (not the same four...every lineman was named either ProBowl or All-Pro).

Yeah definatley. The reason I think the 95 Cowboys were the best of those Cowboy teams was because they had Deion Sanders to go along with all those other stars. They certainly had all the talent in the world.

[HEROHAMO]

One more team I should have mentioned was the 98 Broncos.

John Elway of course. They had Terell Davis who gained 2000 yards that year. Also Rod Smith and Ed mcaffrey both had 1000 yards. Shannon Sharpe went for 700 yards.

There defense was a top a good defense. Not legendary defense but pretty darn good. It was there offense that was a powerhouse that year.

It would still be a good game though.

[welch]

A few more older teams, assuming some adjustments for size of the players:

- almost any of the Lombardi Packers teams...1960 onward (lost the championship to Van Brocklin's Eagles about 1960). Nobody beat Lombardi.

- Paul Brown's NFL Browns. Check the record...as I remember it, they played in the NFL Championship almost every season until the Colts/Giants overtime game. Outclassed everybody. The "Bill Walsh" West Coast offense was created by Paul Brown, who had Otto Graham...best QB of his era.

[HEROHAMO]

Another note about the 1991 Skins.

This team was so impressive. They were the only Super Bowl Champion to face 11 teams with at least a ten win record. Now that is impressive.

Also the average margin of victory was 17 points.

The defense nicknamed Capitol Punishment racked up 50 sacks and 27 interceptions. These are the type of numbers we need to get to see SuperBowls again.

[andyjens89]

None of those teams have the strength, speed, and athletic ability of teams today. So none of those teams could beat the Patriots.

[SkinsJock]

None of those teams have the strength, speed, and athletic ability of teams today. So none of those teams could beat the Patriots.

- sorry! but that is just not true - the teams of today IMO are a result of the NFL attempting to ensure more parity and as a result the teams are not as good as most teams that were even decent from the 70s through the 90s.

Taking nothing away from the Patriots - they are a very good team and they have achieved something very difficult - in fact I would even say they would beat the 1972 Dolphins - BUT they would not beat most of the really good teams from that era and certainly not any of the great teams.

[skinsfan#33]

None of those teams have the strength, speed, and athletic ability of teams today. So none of those teams could beat the Patriots.

You must have meant that as a joke! Teams are so thin now because of free agency that any advange in athletic ability (and there isn't much) the teams from this decade would have over teams from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s would be way off set by the fact that every good team had pletty of depth and most of the important players had been on those teams for 5-10 years. Wilbur Marshall and LT in their prime were better than any LB playing now (maybe not as good as Ray "killer" Lewis in his prime).

ANY of the NFC teams that beat the Bills (four straight years) would have beat the Patriots! The 90 Giants would have been close but the 91 Skins and 92&93 Cowboys would have KIIILLLLLLED the Patriots. Heck any of those Bills teams from 90-93 would have beaten the Patriots!

The really good teams from the late 80s and early 90s are just so much better than any team right now there just isn't any comparrison. Heck, even the Buddy "idiot" Ryan Eagles could have beaten the Pats.

[andyjens89]

Yeah since teams back in the day had state of the art workout facilities and top tier trainers and everything..... I would take USC or LSU of today over the 1972 Dolphins. Yeah they were good, but the game is not the same today.......

[skinsfan#33]

Yeah since teams back in the day had state of the art workout facilities and top tier trainers and everything..... I would take USC or LSU of today over the 1972 Dolphins. Yeah they were good, but the game is not the same today.......

I never said anything about the 72 Dolphins, but it is crazy to even think LSU or USC could beat them. (even though they are the most over hyped NFL team of all time!)

{SIDE NOTE}What they did have in the 70's was tons and tons of steroids. I don't know about the 72 Dolphins, but it is widely know that a good portion of the 70's Steelers were on the juice.

Players today aren't that much better than they were 1, 2 or even 3 decades ago. Do you think Gale Sayers, OJ, and Jim Brown couldn't have ran in todays game? Dexter Manley and Charles Mann would still be a heck of a DE combo. Roger Staubach(Sp?), Bart Star, Otto Grahm, Jonny U, and Sonny could still play QB. Charlie Taylor and Art Monk would still catch tons of passes. And the Hogs, in their prime would still be an ellite OL.

[Tacoma Redskin]

I think the '83 Redskins should have been on there. In my opinion that was the most dominant Redskins team ever. They just didn't show up to cash the check in the Super Bowl.

[HEROHAMO]

I think the '83 Redskins should have been on there. In my opinion that was the most dominant Redskins team ever. They just didn't show up to cash the check in the Super Bowl.

Well I gave them consideration. The fact that they didnt finish the job says alot about them.

[welch]

So...when did "state of the art" training come into the NFL?

- Have the Redskins' training methods changed since 1991?

- When did teams bring in a "strength coach"?

[SkinsJock]

Yeah since teams back in the day had state of the art workout facilities and top tier trainers and everything..... I would take USC or LSU of today over the 1972 Dolphins. Yeah they were good, but the game is not the same today.......

there is an old saying .."you never know how misinformed people are until they show you" ... in trying to make a point about this Pats team you are making claims that are making your position look silly IMO. "Yeah they were good, but the game is not the same today ...." - you are exactly right here but not the way you intended - did you ever see a Pat Fisher or a Mike Bass hit, and they were just good Redskins' players of that era?

This is a very good team with a lot of very good players and coaches but to think that they could play with any of the very good to great teams from the 70s through the 90s is just showing a lack of appreciation for some really good NFL teams that played against some great competition. The Pats did not "make" their schedule but it did include 6 games against their division - these teams won a combined 12 of 48 games

To also think a LSU or USC (or any college team of today) could compete with an NFL team that had some decent players is just an indication that you really do not actually know much about the NFL game from that era.

This is a great team but only when measured against teams of today in my opinion - they do not belong on the same field against the teams of the late 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s.

[HEROHAMO]

Yeah since teams back in the day had state of the art workout facilities and top tier trainers and everything..... I would take USC or LSU of today over the 1972 Dolphins. Yeah they were good, but the game is not the same today.......

Here are some facts for you.


Bo Jackson still holds the record for the fastest forty time ever. A 3.9 at his combine. Bo Jackson played in the eightys and early nineties. He was the most complete athlete I have ever seen.

Darrell Green was the NFLs fastest man for ten years or so. In his prime he would be faster than anybody in todays league. Same as Bo Jackson. Jacoby was the first of the very big athletic tackles in my memory. Jacoby would dominate in any era.

Deon Sanders, Darell Green, and Bo Jackson would dust anybody in todays NFL in a footrace. Dont believe me just look at the all time records for the combine fortys.

How about Barry Sanders? You will never ever ever see another running back like Barry again. He is also from the eightys and early nineties.

[SkinsJock]

the players of yesteryear were bigger and faster - No QB of today would be able to withstand a season of hitting like we all saw in the 70s through the 90s.

The rules of the game were changed to help offenses score and to protect the QBs because of those defenses.


No one who saw those teams play thinks that the Patriots could beat any of those teams - this patriots team is a great team when compared to todays NFL teams but it does not compare to any of the decent teams of that era, let alone the great teams.

[Deadskins]

the players of yesteryear were bigger and faster - No QB of today would be able to withstand a season of hitting like we all saw in the 70s through the 90s.

The rules of the game were changed to help offenses score and to protect the QBs because of those defenses.


No one who saw those teams play thinks that the Patriots could beat any of those teams - this patriots team is a great team when compared to todays NFL teams but it does not compare to any of the decent teams of that era, let alone the great teams.

I agree with your all of your post except the first sentence, that's exactly opposite of the actual situation.

[PulpExposure]

the players of yesteryear were bigger and faster - No QB of today would be able to withstand a season of hitting like we all saw in the 70s through the 90s.

The rules of the game were changed to help offenses score and to protect the QBs because of those defenses.


No one who saw those teams play thinks that the Patriots could beat any of those teams - this patriots team is a great team when compared to todays NFL teams but it does not compare to any of the decent teams of that era, let alone the great teams.

I agree with your all of your post except the first sentence, that's exactly opposite of the actual situation.

Pretty much. Remember Jeff Bostic? 260 pound center? How many of those do you see in the NFL now?

Joe Jacoby was a huge OT at the time. He weighed 315. That's a reasonable size now.

[rod_gardner_fan_club]

After NFL Network showed the 85 super bowl a couple nights ago, the 85 bears would annihilate the Patriots of this year and anyone else, ever. Just sick. They were just messing around the whole second half.

With that said, I voted for the 91 Skins.

[SkinsJock]

the players of yesteryear were bigger and faster - No QB of today would be able to withstand a season of hitting like we all saw in the 70s through the 90s.

The rules of the game were changed to help offenses score and to protect the QBs because of those defenses.

I agree with your all of your post except the first sentence, that's exactly opposite of the actual situation.

I understand your point - I agree that the players overall today are bigger and faster - I guess the point I was making was that it seems to me the players and the rules made it difficult for the offense to work like it does now PLUS the NFL wanted to both increase scoring and as importantly keep the QBs healthy.

Now a huge offensive lineman might help BUT I do not believe the quality of the offensive and defensive players of today could compete against the teams that had no salary cap restraints and players like Bedanarick and LT coming at you when the secondary is basically shutting down all downfield options. Moss and TO would never have survived against those secondaries and they are some of the better receivers of today. For a start, most plays they would be lying on the ground instead of running free downfield.

Size is one thing but there were players back in the day that played a whole lot bigger than their size and the rules put a lot of QBs and WRs at a huge disadvantage.

Like I said - I take nothing away from the great success of the Patriots - IMO they do not match up against that era.

I wish a lot of people could have seen Pat Fisher, Mike Bass and Ronnie Lott hit people and linebackers like Singletarry and LT pancaking runners - Maroney would not have lasted a half

And the coaches - Belichick and Coughlin against the likes of Walsh, Parcells, Gibbs, Noll, Shula, Johnson and the list goes on. Give me those coaches with their teams against this, or any Patriots team - great in todays' NFL and, as far as their record goes, the 2007 Patriots are the greatest in NFL history - BUT not on the field IMO.

[welch]

Well, forget the other teams, this NE "Pats" isn't even as good as the current NY Giants.

Regarding the rules changes, notice how many times the Giants hit Brady. None as hard as, for instance, Leonard Marshall hit Montana in the NFC Championship game before SB 25.

Thinking about it, none of the hits were as hard as those that Mark Rypien routinely took. The Giants did not lower a shoulder and hit Brady full tilt in the back. No one speared him. No hits on his legs.

Every time the Giants, in a fair-play fashion, wrapped their arms around Brady and pulled him down.

Interesting to see the scuffs on Welker's uniform, but nobody tried to take off his head, as defenders often tried with Art Monk and Gary Clark.

[UK Skins Fan]

Putting nostalgia to one side, I'm just glad that the Pats didn't get the perfect season, because that would only add some legitimacy to any claims of being the greatest of all time. I've said before that this Patriots team would not stack up against the teams I watched through the 80's and 90's. They have been astonishingly successful during a time when the title of "dynasty" should be impossible to achieve, but they just aren't that good. Good grief, they just lost to the 3rd best Giants team to have appeared in the Superbowl. And the Parcell's coached Giants teams of the 80's would have eaten both the Patriots and Giants teams alive last night.