The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised at Collin's performance these past three games, which suggests that this is no fluke relief effort. But I'm not surprised at the results we've seen.

I've been saying ALL year that aside from flashes from Campbell, he hasn't gotten the job done consistently, and better play at the QB position was what the Redskins have been missing all year long. Holding the ball too long (most were blaming the O-Line for the pressure), not connecting with the playmakers (most were blaming receivers and injuries to receivers), overthrowing too many deep balls with receivers open....etc.

The long list of excuses for Campbell's inability to put points on the board ran the gamut from a lack of experience to poor timing due to receiver injuries to dropped passes, to play calling to the need for a big tall receiver, to poor pass protection. Campbell needs this, and Campbell needs that.....this is not the issue. The issue is, you play the QB who gives you the best chance to win, period. And that is CLEARLY Collins at this point. Collins has demonstrated that the offense has the weapons needed to score. Over a 3 game period our average points per game increased by 6-7 points. That is a HUGE increase, and would have been the difference in every single loss with the exception of the NE game.
As for this declaration that Campbell IS our future, that too, is presuming too much. So far, the best that could be said is that Campbell has the talent and potential to be our future, but has not yet shown up on the field and in the win column, which is the only true measure of success. So far, Campbell is still an "IF", and will remain so until his performance says otherwise. Until that occurs, you have to choose performance over potential.

I grow so very tired of reading about JC's failures. The guy has yet to play a full season of professional football and we're already discussing his shortcomings? That's insane, I LOVE the way Collins has played thus far but a large part of that is experience. My purpose here is not to defend JC's play thus far as a whole but to ask what in the hell you expect from him at this point in his career?

Fios wrote:I grow so very tired of reading about JC's failures. The guy has yet to play a full season of professional football and we're already discussing his shortcomings? That's insane, I LOVE the way Collins has played thus far but a large part of that is experience. My purpose here is not to defend JC's play thus far as a whole but to ask what in the hell you expect from him at this point in his career?

I agree with Fios. People on here are quick to rip JC, but yet fail to realize that you don't become a Pro Bowl qb overnight. The vast majority of qb's struggle early on in their careers and it takes time for things to click for them. Not to mention the fact that JC was asked to do a lot more than most young qb's are. He was doing very well imo considering how little experience he had.

I say he has to beat Dallas (in the playoffs) in order to make it an open competition next training camp. I don't care if he beats the Patriots by fifty, there is no chance that I don't give Campbell every opportunity to win the job next season.

I think I did expect more. However, I'm am supporting him. Collins comes in and has had good games. And all of a sudden people are "basically " saying he sucks and was the problem all along. Thats a big fat load.

They are very different QBs. Jason seems to try to make something happen using his natural skills. Where as Collins uses his knowlege. Which is why he's doing so well. Im greatfull we had Collins, now that I have seen him in action.

And this could be great for JC. With some people, you can tell them 100 times that they are waiting to long to throw the ball. And instead of throwing to the spot earlier, he starts trying to make his reads quicker. Yet, he will still get in the game, and not think about it and let old habbits come back. Maybe he will understand "throw to this spot" after seeing Collins timeing. Im not saying JC is that type of person, but old habbits die hard for almost everyone.

What drives me crazy, Is that it is known that Gibbs teams come on strong at the end of the year(there are thread here about it). We all know the struggles this team has gone through this year. From hurt WRs, lineman, Carlos, MW, to ST #21 RIP. And from them being completely out for the season, to being out a couple of games.

Some people are now saying that stuff didn't hurt us!!!!!!!! Thats just crazy talk. I mean Moss couldn't even put his shoe on with out numbing his heal. And you people are acting like they made it up as an excuse. And just LIKE LAST YEAR, the line are playing better at the end of the season. REMEMBER WHAT BETTS DID? But the line playing better don't have nothing to do with rushing on the best rushing D in the NFL last week. I guess, just like they didn't have nothing to do with Betts rushing for over 1000 yds as he did last year too.

We all thought he was progressing very well - no worries

I and a few others have been concerned for some time now about the time he has taken to adjust to the speed of the game and to his understanding of what the defense was doing BEFORE they do it - his "progress" in both these areas has been questioned before Collins played. He has been progressing but not noticeably.

Campbell was making bad decisions and taking too long to do that - he was hurting our team. Now we have the proof that the offense "without all the weapons" but being operated as designed with Collins, really is very effective.

Many here are only saying that at this time we can wait and let Collins continue to do what he is doing and then see if Campbell wants to step up - he has all the attributes and more of a very good QB but he had better improve in these 2 areas (knowing the plays AND reading defenses) quickly or he is not going to be effective running this scheme that Saunders and Gibbs are enjoying some success with now with Collins as our QB.


I think Gibbs would like to have Campbell back behind center BUT now he is going to wait and let him earn it back - that will be good for Campbell and the Redskins.

Some of these arguements are just senseless.

"Collins is the back-up so he needs to stay as the back-up"

-This by far is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. The idea is to put the best QB on the field. If Collins is the best than he is the starter. That's how it works. This is precisley why depth charts aren't written in stone.

"Campbell is our future, he needs to play"

-This is partially true. Collins went 10 years sitting on the bench and he seems to be doing okay. Just because Collins is the starter now, doesn't mean that Campbell is not our future anymore. Collins can't play forever, and Campbell can learn this system. When Campbell is the better QB, then he should be the starter. This can happen in one of three ways;

1) Campbell improves and is better than Collins
2) Collins regresses to the point that Campbell is the better option
3) Collins gets injured

"Gibbs will keep Collins in only because he prefers vetrens"

-Well, as long as the vetren is playing better than the young guy, who wouldn't prefer him?

"Campbell isn't as good as Collins"

-True, but you missed the word "yet", so the phrase should be "Campbell isn't as good as Collins yet". He'll learn, Collins has the benefit of 10 years' of expirience, Campbell has a year and a half.

"Collins doesn't have a contract, so he won't be here next year"

-Certainly a possibility, but we always seem to find a way to make cap-room, and talk people into playing for less. Collins would certainly understand that he is a product of this system, and that this system may be the one that finally get's him a SB ring. We'll have to wait and see.

Campbell may be ready to go by the Wildcard playoffs. If we are in them, I doubt we'll see him replace Collins. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Next year, is next year. A lot of things can happen between now and then. If Collins takes us deep into the playoffs, I anticipate a QB competition during training camp.

Skinsjock I haven't thought of that. Having him earn his spot back. Sometimes that works better than to just give him the spot and tell him to improve.

However, the problem I have with that is, the time of year. If this happend when earlier and JC could get healthy this year and then have to earn his spot back, he would have time to do so before going into the offseason. I want JC as the starter next year.

And if you Start Collins next year (unless he really screws up a lot) you would have to stick to him through out the year.

Thats something I don't totally understand in todays NFL. Is that you seem to have one star QB. I've seen lots of Colleges use two QBs and switch because they have two different tallents. But no team in the NFL does this.

I say this mostly because, has Jason not got hurt, we wouldn't have known Collins was any good. At the same time if you give the job to Collins, When will you find out if JC has improved?

Maybe, whoever is the starter, the backup needs more work than usual on the Redskins.

I'd guess that Campbell got almost all the practice snaps because Gibbs and Saunders want him learning. Every practice snap is learning.

Next year?

Lets discuss this in March, maybe, when things are slow...except for the draft predictions and the fantasy trades ("Rypien, Westbrook, Wade for Billy Simms and Warren Moon...")

I think some of you guys are missing the point here. This isn't the National Jason Campbell League, it is the National Football League, and you play the player that plays the best. This isn't about playing your 1st round pick because he was a first round pick, or making excuses for a less experienced player, or condemning anyone who might point out OBVIOUS shortcomings. Sure, a player's experience level does have an impact on his performance, and yes, most (but not all) QB's struggle early...but does that automatically mean that you just live with it for 2, 3, 4, years if there is a better player waiting on the bench to play? Only if you are nuts.

Now with regard to actual QB experience, let's correct the record here a little OK. First, this is Jason Campbell's 3rd year as a Redskin. That is 3 years of experience, and not "less than a year", or "a year and a half", etc. He has started 20 games in his career which is exactly one game more than the 19 games Todd Collins has started in his entire career. But the more interesting and relevant point is that in the past 9 years, Collins has started 2 games (both this year), as his other 17 starts came over 10 years ago with Buffalo. Prior to this year, he has NEVER started a game in Saunders offense, and under Saunders offense, he has only played an extremely limited role in 12 games with a GRAND TOTAL of 27 passing attempts in 9 years! Compare that to Jason's 20 games and 624 passing attempts in Al Saunders offense and you begin to see that the on-field, real time experience in this offense, Jason has WAY MORE GAME experience by a MILE.

So lets be completely clear and honest about this notion of Jason's lack of experience when comparing the two QB's. Jason is in actuality, the more experienced of the two insofar as actual playing experience is concerned. Which, in my opinion is the most valuable experience.

And the differences between Jason and Todd that we've seen so far are as much related to mechanics and execution as they are experience or familiarity with the offense. Quick release for example is an issue of mechanics, not experience, while holding the ball too long is decision making based on reading defenses and the ability to see the whole field (seeing the open receiver). Collins has shown superior ability in both of these areas so far. And he has also shown that he protects the ball better.

I would say he's got to be the starter for the remainder of this season, but for next year you've probably got to go with JC.

welch wrote:Maybe, whoever is the starter, the backup needs more work than usual on the Redskins.

I'd guess that Campbell got almost all the practice snaps because Gibbs and Saunders want him learning. Every practice snap is learning.

Next year?

Lets discuss this in March, maybe, when things are slow...except for the draft predictions and the fantasy trades ("Rypien, Westbrook, Wade for Billy Simms and Warren Moon...")

I don't think that it had anything to do with JC. Saunders has never given his backup qb's significant snaps in practice.

RayNAustin wrote:I think some of you guys are missing the point here. This isn't the National Jason Campbell League, it is the National Football League, and you play the player that plays the best. This isn't about playing your 1st round pick because he was a first round pick, or making excuses for a less experienced player, or condemning anyone who might point out OBVIOUS shortcomings. Sure, a player's experience level does have an impact on his performance, and yes, most (but not all) QB's struggle early...but does that automatically mean that you just live with it for 2, 3, 4, years if there is a better player waiting on the bench to play? Only if you are nuts.

Now with regard to actual QB experience, let's correct the record here a little OK. First, this is Jason Campbell's 3rd year as a Redskin. That is 3 years of experience, and not "less than a year", or "a year and a half", etc. He has started 20 games in his career which is exactly one game more than the 19 games Todd Collins has started in his entire career. But the more interesting and relevant point is that in the past 9 years, Collins has started 2 games (both this year), as his other 17 starts came over 10 years ago with Buffalo. Prior to this year, he has NEVER started a game in Saunders offense, and under Saunders offense, he has only played an extremely limited role in 12 games with a GRAND TOTAL of 27 passing attempts in 9 years! Compare that to Jason's 20 games and 624 passing attempts in Al Saunders offense and you begin to see that the on-field, real time experience in this offense, Jason has WAY MORE GAME experience by a MILE.

So lets be completely clear and honest about this notion of Jason's lack of experience when comparing the two QB's. Jason is in actuality, the more experienced of the two insofar as actual playing experience is concerned. Which, in my opinion is the most valuable experience.

And the differences between Jason and Todd that we've seen so far are as much related to mechanics and execution as they are experience or familiarity with the offense. Quick release for example is an issue of mechanics, not experience, while holding the ball too long is decision making based on reading defenses and the ability to see the whole field (seeing the open receiver). Collins has shown superior ability in both of these areas so far. And he has also shown that he protects the ball better.

True Jason has more gametime experience than Todd, but Todd has been studying this playbook, and game film 10 times longer than Jason. Reading defenses comes from classroom work not on-field action. Timing, mechanics, and other physical parts of the game come from on-field action. Knowing tendencies, reading coverages, looking off defenders, and throwing to a spot where the WR is going to be a certain number of seconds into the play is all stuff Collins has infinitely more experience with than Jason. This shows on the field.

i'm in the camp that collins should be the qb for the rest of this season. however, i think that campbell is our qb next year. i am taking nothing away from collins, he has done very well.

but i will put my money on jason next year. this kid is our future.

If Collins leads us to the NFC Championship game or beyond, I'd say he remains the starter.

Either way, it should be an open competition at the QB position next year....that is what brings out the best of the players, and is ultimately best for the team.
I am a fan of Campbell, but more importantly I am a fan of the Redskins..if Collins takes us on a 6 game win streak into the playoffs...he deserves to play.l

JSPB22 wrote:True Jason has more gametime experience than Todd, but Todd has been studying this playbook, and game film 10 times longer than Jason. Reading defenses comes from classroom work not on-field action. Timing, mechanics, and other physical parts of the game come from on-field action. Knowing tendencies, reading coverages, looking off defenders, and throwing to a spot where the WR is going to be a certain number of seconds into the play is all stuff Collins has infinitely more experience with than Jason. This shows on the field.

Collins has a better grasp of the offense because of his previous years in Saunders system, however the physical skills you mentioned like timing which you say is gained on the field should suggest that Campbell would do better, because he has more on filed experience than Collins. But that's not what we are seeing.

Campbell may well turn out to be an excellent QB...who knows...maybe even a great one.....maybe better than Collins could ever hope of being. But right now, that is pure speculation. Right now, Collins, with his limited on field experience is proving to be far better at executing the offense than Jason. And why shouldn't we assume that Collins will actually get even better, given more playing time? That's the argument used on Jason's behalf...that all he needs is more playing time, more experience. If Collins is playing better now, and continues to play at a high level, what possible excuse or reason could be used for benching him?

Countertrey wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:Collins is the starter now, obviously, and will be the starter as long as he keeps it up. He's won one NFL offensive player of the week award and there's reason to hope he'll win a second for last week's game.

The other benefit is that he now has HUGE credibility with Campbell as a mentor in this system. You can be sure that, when he speaks, Campbell will be listening.

While Collins has low mileage, he is still an older QB, who can't be expected to last a lot longer.

I'm not sure about that, but you may be right. However, Collins is a young old man in that he hasn't taken even a years worth of licks in his whole pro career. He's probably less damaged than typical NFL starting quarterbacks and may have relatively fresh legs.

RayNAustin wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:True Jason has more gametime experience than Todd, but Todd has been studying this playbook, and game film 10 times longer than Jason. Reading defenses comes from classroom work not on-field action. Timing, mechanics, and other physical parts of the game come from on-field action. Knowing tendencies, reading coverages, looking off defenders, and throwing to a spot where the WR is going to be a certain number of seconds into the play is all stuff Collins has infinitely more experience with than Jason. This shows on the field.

Collins has a better grasp of the offense because of his previous years in Saunders system, however the physical skills you mentioned like timing which you say is gained on the field should suggest that Campbell would do better, because he has more on filed experience than Collins. But that's not what we are seeing.

Campbell may well turn out to be an excellent QB...who knows...maybe even a great one.....maybe better than Collins could ever hope of being. But right now, that is pure speculation. Right now, Collins, with his limited on field experience is proving to be far better at executing the offense than Jason. And why shouldn't we assume that Collins will actually get even better, given more playing time? That's the argument used on Jason's behalf...that all he needs is more playing time, more experience. If Collins is playing better now, and continues to play at a high level, what possible excuse or reason could be used for benching him?

I thought you were making the opposite argument. Jason has far better natural skills than Todd. Todd has just had longer to watch film and take in classroom knowledge of the playbook. The timing I was referring to was timing on the bombs, which TC does not have the arm for, not the timing to run the internal clock and know when to release the ball to the spot on the field where the receiver will be. Jason will learn to read defenses over time with classroom study watching film. TC was not the finished product he is now in his third year in the league, and second in the Saunders' system. I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge that JC is a more gifted athlete. I want to have Collins finish out this season, however far that takes us, and then have Jason take over again next season. TC will not be playing forever, and only has one, maybe two years left in the tank.

Todd Collins deserves to be the starter for the rest of this season.

I bet we would have lost the games that we won with Todd Collins if Jason Campbell never got hurt.

Jason Campbell will be the starter next year. Also if he is not one hundred percent why risk further injury? Collins has played good and deserves to keep playing.

I hate to play devil's advocate, but has anyone considered that JC might not be what we all hope and pray he is? It was illustrated that he has more on field experience than TC, but TC is executing in this offense like it's supposed to executed. I don't see the bomb an issue, really. I'm completely satisfied with 30-35yd being his long range...it worked last week with Moss(32yd pass, not YAC added on like ey's TD). I've been completely optimistic about JC, and I still think he has time to turn it around, but so far, he's NOT performing like the second coming of Christ like some people think he would (me included). I really haven't seen much improvement in his game this year. Next year will be the difining year. If TC can step in and do what he's doing and JC can't produce similarly with his obviously superior athleticism and the 3-4 yrs of study under his belt, then I don't think he's going to do it here in this system.



Skinsjock

I and a few others have been concerned for some time now about the time he has taken to adjust to the speed of the game and to his understanding of what the defense was doing BEFORE they do it - his "progress" in both these areas has been questioned before Collins played. He has been progressing but not noticeably.


How, exactly, does one progress, but not noticeably? If it's not noticeable, how can you tell?

VetSkinsFan wrote:I hate to play devil's advocate, but has anyone considered that JC might not be what we all hope and pray he is?

I don't need to hope and pray—we can see his potential, and progress, on the field.

I'm completely satisfied with 30-35yd being his long range...

Sounds like what you said about Brun. . .oh wait, this is Collins. Set haters on "stun", not "kill".

I've been completely optimistic about JC, and I still think he has time to turn it around, but so far, he's NOT performing like the second coming of Christ like some people think he would (me included).

I really haven't seen much improvement in his game this year.

Who thought that he would step in and be perfect? If you did, then it's no wonder that you're left grasping at straws to explain his perceived progress so far. That also explains why you "haven't seen much improvement in his game this year", because many of us have seen pretty big strides.

Patience. . .it's likely that Campbell's best years won't come until around 2010 or 2011. . .and there's no need to throw him under the bus if he can't 'get there' until then. He'll just become another name on the list of players that the Redskins gave up on too early. . .and another reason why our FO would have to be fired.

I like what this guy has to say about this

wormer wrote:So seriously....

If Collins leads the Skins to a Super Bowl victory many of you don't think he should be/will be the starter next season?

If he does win, he will get a post in another team -or- retire having accomplished a trip from miserable rags to incredible riches in the span of only half a dozen games.

I know I would retire (but I would consider any offers knocking at my door just in case).

Redskin in Canada wrote:

wormer wrote:So seriously....

If Collins leads the Skins to a Super Bowl victory many of you don't think he should be/will be the starter next season?

If he does win, he will get a post in another team -or- retire having accomplished a trip from miserable rags to incredible riches in the span of only half a dozen games.

I know I would retire (but I would consider any offers knocking at my door just in case).

I say why not keep Collins aboard as the backup next year?

I hope he is back next year. We are paying Brunell a boat load to just sit the bench.

We have a couple of threads going here but I will repeat that in my opinion Collins is our starter for this year and unless Campbell tanks it - Collins is earning the right to be our back-up next year or maybe somebody wants to trade for him?

I doubt we have the same 3 as we started this season but until we see what progress Campbell makes this off season we will keep Collins as insurance.

As far as the measurement of Campbell's progress is concerned (VetSkinsFan) I guess I think he is making better decisions but he is still a work in progress - I am hoping that he will learn a lot from what he is seeing both during games and on the practice field now that Collins is taking all the reps. Gibbs has a thing about QB's decision making and not turning the ball over - Campbell seems to be slowly improving but I am concerned about if in fact he has the mental side of reading the defenses and knowing this offense - Gibbs/Saunders offense is not as mentally difficult as we first thought and as has been explained by Saunders when the idiot media tried to make out that understanding the offense was a concern.