The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Gibbs4Life wrote:If we take Collins to Seattle in a playoff game it won't matter how much he knows the offense; what he is ...is savy, JC is talented, todd's talent is not there what I mean by that is let's say we get behind or the game is on the line in the 4th does anyone here feel more comfortable with it all on the shoulders of todd collins then Jason, come on people TC has won 3 and probably will get 4 but who's to say Jason would not have? In the playoffs on the road if Jason is 100% on the sideline we would be moronic not to let the kid do his thang.

Thats the thing though, with the type of injury JC had this week is going to be his first week out at pratice much less trying to move at game speed. I don't recall seeing him on the sidelines at all this week, which to me means that hes not even putting that much weight on his knee.

The way I see it I don't want to see JC out all next year, but if we need him because Collins goes down then I would rather see him than Boo-nell in a playoff game. But for now let Collins do his thing and let JC heal. Theres no way his 100% or even 75% by the Wild Card game.

The most important thing right now is we are scoring touchdowns now in the red zone. Maybe Al just feels more comfortable with TC and calls the game different. Whatever the reason, I'll take 7 over 3 anyday.

It's a tough call. However, if (and this is a big if) JC is fully healthy and is able to go through a full week of practice with the team, then he should be the starter if he is truly our qb of the future. At this point in JC's career it boils down to experience. He needs to be on the field as much as possible and in as many different scenarios as possible. Going on the road in a hostile environment would be very beneficial for his growth as a qb. I would much rather have JC make his first ever road playoff start this season than in the future when we have a team that is capable of competing for a Super Bowl.

No doubt Todd Collins has done a great job so far. He knows the offense well and he gets the ball out very quickly. However, in his 3 games he has faced the 26th, 28th, and 32nd ranked pass defenses so it's probably a little premature to crown him as our savior just yet.

Gibbs4Life wrote:Um I start Jason. Todd has been efficient and is doing what a real quality backup QB should; problem is he is a backup and eventually will show his colors; lets hope its not next week but as soon as JC can play we have to start him because he is better than Collins.

I'm not so sure he's better than Collins right now. If somebody's open, Collins finds him. Arm or no arm, he's a completion machine. I can't quite figure it, but what the heck? The Gints were lucky we played them on a windy day.

JC will be ready, I think there is a difference between ready and 100%, I say uf we get there on the back of 3 wins in a row we stick with the hot hand in Collins.

As much as I am a JC advocate, you gotta go with what's working. It's not like you have an elite QB coming back (Favre, Romo, Brady, P Manning), it's your QB of the future who's still learning the nuances of the NFL. We're not 3-12 playing for next year. We have playoff hopes and beyond, go with what's working, and Todd Collins is working.

Gotta go with the momentum Collins is the choice. He has yet to throw an int in 2 1/2 games and only turned the ball over once. Jason on the other hand 19 turnovers this yr. Collins manages the game very well and he has a better touch pass than Campbell. With the knee Jason loses mobility which is part of his game see McNabb

there is a reason that todd collins hasn't started a game in 10 years. unless you think the entire NFL scouting system just dropped the ball on this one. plus, todd collins has not played a single down yet while trailing in a game. not ONE down. he hasn't been asked to bring a team back in a pressure situation. also, if you look at some of our losses, can we really blame them on campbell. giants, terrible second half playcalling... new england... tc is not winning that one... eagles... defense collapsed in 4th quarter... green bay... santana moss... bills... joe gibbs... and the list goes on.

Start Sam Hollenbach. Anyone.... anyone...

Start Collins, he is way better. He feels the rush, it doesn't take him a hour to release the ball, he is quicker (mentally), this shouldn't even be a debate. Start Collins.

RedskinjXd wrote:there is a reason that todd collins hasn't started a game in 10 years. unless you think the entire NFL scouting system just dropped the ball on this one. plus, todd collins has not played a single down yet while trailing in a game. not ONE down. he hasn't been asked to bring a team back in a pressure situation. also, if you look at some of our losses, can we really blame them on campbell. giants, terrible second half playcalling... new england... tc is not winning that one... eagles... defense collapsed in 4th quarter... green bay... santana moss... bills... joe gibbs... and the list goes on.

There's a good reason he's never played a single down in a catch up situation-- he hasn't let us get in that situation. By the way, his performance in the fourth quarter against the Vikes was a first-rate clutch performance. We could have easily lost.

By the way, this is the fifth game in which Collins has looked good this year, if you count exhibition games.

Stick with Collins.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You have to go with Collins, and it would be silly to even consider lifting him. Here are some per game numbers to consider:



Collins has been far better, despite playing good teams and in hostile environments. This season is now all about the present, and right now it's pretty clear that Todd Collins gives us the best chance to win.

RedskinjXd wrote:also, if you look at some of our losses, can we really blame them on campbell.

Leaving the rest of your argument aside, what difference does it make that whose fault it was? The Redskins have finally found a formula that works, and you want to change a key ingredient? We've just finished beating three teams who each had a lot on the line. Two of those games were on the road, and one was in a tornado. Collins is getting the job done. Maybe Campbell can too, but I'd just as soon not try and find out.

This point has been made by many but bears repeating. You can not change at this point. Collins is the starter for the playoffs unless he has a total meltdown. At that point JC (assuming healthy) goes in.

Depending on how far TC takes us it could mean the infamous "open competition" during training camp.

I'm a big JC fan but you simply can't deny that TC is much better for this team right NOW. His command of the playbook and his accuracy are 2 things JC sipmly does not have.

Also, I would argue that TC does have at least SOME physical abilities that are superior to JC. JC has real issues with the quick hit stuff. TC's release is much quicker.

Saunders O is predicated on quick reads, quick reactions and accuracy. You need someone who can do all 3. JC does not have those skills...YET!

You do not need a cannon. Look at Trent Green. He's never been known for having a strong arm. He is very smart and very accurate AND he places the ball where the WR's can do something after the catch.

As for those who say he has never started as a reason he can not be a starter, I have to disagree. If not for Kurt Warner's thumb, Mark Bulger never gets his shot. Actually, if not for Trent Greens knee, WARNER never gets a shot! There are plenty of QB's that sit on the bench that are perfecty good starting QB's in this league.


TC is the man...for now

wormer wrote:This point has been made by many but bears repeating. You can not change at this point. Collins is the starter for the playoffs unless he has a total meltdown. At that point JC (assuming healthy) goes in.

Depending on how far TC takes us it could mean the infamous "open competition" during training camp.

I'm a big JC fan but you simply can't deny that TC is much better for this team right NOW. His command of the playbook and his accuracy are 2 things JC sipmly does not have.

Also, I would argue that TC does have at least SOME physical abilities that are superior to JC. JC has real issues with the quick hit stuff. TC's release is much quicker.

Saunders O is predicated on quick reads, quick reactions and accuracy. You need someone who can do all 3. JC does not have those skills...YET!

You do not need a cannon. Look at Trent Green. He's never been known for having a strong arm. He is very smart and very accurate AND he places the ball where the WR's can do something after the catch.

As for those who say he has never started as a reason he can not be a starter, I have to disagree. If not for Kurt Warner's thumb, Mark Bulger never gets his shot. Actually, if not for Trent Greens knee, WARNER never gets a shot! There are plenty of QB's that sit on the bench that are perfecty good starting QB's in this league.


TC is the man...for now

I agree with you somewhat.... While I do agree that we should stick with collins I think its only because we want a healthy JC for next year... this guys knee cap came off, and I am guessing that hes got quite a bit of healing to do. Now with that in mind this opportunity give JC something he hasn't had yet. A chance to see how saunders wants his offense run, and how effective he can be if he throws to a spot, not a receiver. We have top noch receivers who can run routes better than most receivers in the league. So maybe this will show JC he can trust that if he looks at the spot and the receiver isn't there he can throw it there knowing that the receiver is going to be there when the ball gets there.

Look it was terrifing the heck out of me when I saw Collins launch it deep but he has been pretty acurate (even if the ball stays in the air forever).

Overall I just want to see the skins make a superbowl run, and they have proven that they can beat every NFC team thats in. So be it Collins or Campbell (I'm almost afraid to say this but) I trust the coaching staff to make the right decision for the situation!!

LOSTHOG wrote:I'm seeing plays run that I haven't seen before because Collins has command of the offense.

No doubt:

"The quarterbacks that have played in this system have had a very high football aptitude," Saunders said. "They have to be bright guys with a great ability to retain and gather information, because this offense builds and builds and builds, and part of the success we've had on offense is the versatility and volume we have. We go into a game with 250, 300 plays, and that changes every single week and multiplies itself through the course of a year. It's a lot of timing. It's rhythm. The game is played at a very, very, fast, upbeat tempo, and all of those things begin with the quarterback."

Collins, 34, is a Saunders favorite even though he has made just 17 starts since 1995. "Todd is as good a technician as there is in this passing game," Saunders said. "He just hasn't had a chance to play because [Chiefs Pro Bowl starter] Trent [Green] was always healthy."

DarthMonk

Gibbs4Life wrote:

All of our receivers are now getting involved because the ball isn't 10 yards over their head.

Oh please JC is a weapon and its not like Collins has been perfect how many snaps has he fumbled? I mean if you think the reason we've won the last three is Todd Collins you are stretching it; I think its definately positive that Todd has come in and shown everyone what it looks like when a qb has been in a system for more than a year but that still doesn't make him Jason Campbell, is TC 3-0 yes, does he deserve credit yes, but has he earned the starting spot? I don't think so. I trust Gibbs to make the right choice; what a wonderfull problem to have.

Before you start on Collins fumbles, you should go back and count how many Campbell has fumbled.

I say you have to let TC play the rest of the season out, how many ever games that may be. The offense has put up good numbers in all 3 W's, and Collins numbers were pretty damn good in 2 of 3, and you can't blame him for the poor completion percentage against the Giants. The offense just looks more in sync with Collins in at QB. I don't think anyone in the locker room would say that JC is not the future of the team, just like I think they would all say to stick with TC right now as well. He spreads the ball around, and reads the D better than JC at this point. Perfect example was ey's TD last night. TC looked down the right sideline enough for the safety to lean that way, and that allowed ey to run free across the middle. Although JC has improved this part of his game, I would say 9 times out of 10 he would have thrown to the WR down the right sideline. The fumbled snaps were not TC's fault, and as he continues to practice with the first team offense, Rabach and him will build better chemistry. Also, I think TC's play has had an impact on the D, which has continued to improve over the last few weeks. I think a factor in this is that the Skins are not going 3 & out 90% of the time, especially in the second half when we have blown so many leads. Earlier in the season you did not see the Skins passing the ball as much as they are now when they were up in the 3rd & 4th quarters. I think JCshould watch these games closely, and learn from TC right now. It is one thing for the coaches and players to tell JC how the offense should work in this system, it is another thing for him to actually see how the offense works in Saunder's system.

If we make the playoffs I think we should start Collins, Things are clicking right now, I wouldnt change..

RedskinjXd wrote:there is a reason that todd collins hasn't started a game in 10 years. unless you think the entire NFL scouting system just dropped the ball on this one. plus, todd collins has not played a single down yet while trailing in a game. not ONE down. he hasn't been asked to bring a team back in a pressure situation. also, if you look at some of our losses, can we really blame them on campbell. giants, terrible second half playcalling... new england... tc is not winning that one... eagles... defense collapsed in 4th quarter... green bay... santana moss... bills... joe gibbs... and the list goes on.

You are criticising Collins for not having played a down where he is behind???? That makes no sense. I thank it is great that he has never been behind.

Not all of the losses can be blamed on Campbell but most of them can. Campbell may be one of tha hardest working Redskins but with Collins in as quarterback, it is evident that Campbell does not understand Saunders system. That and his inexperience has cost us wins.

Something that I was very interested in was seeing Saunders offenive scheme function with a quarterback that fully understand it. In the last 3 games, I have seen offensive formations that I never saw before. That tells me that with Campbell as the quarterback, it limits the offensive play calling.

Campbell may be the future but he is not there yet. Leave Collins in if we make the playoffs.

aswas71788 wrote:Before you start on Collins fumbles, you should go back and count how many Campbell has fumbled.

Very good point for this arguement. And again, I don't think many people here are saying that JC is not the future of this organization, but if you switch QB's, you completely kill the momentum this team has built.

The bears and vikings are 24th and 32nd respectively in pass defense. Do you think any other team would let Santana Moss jump that far over their head or let Chris ey get that wide open? Collins has been solid, and has done some things better than JC (pocket presence mostly), but he is not a better qb, even at this point.

brad7686 wrote:The bears and vikings are 24th and 32nd respectively in pass defense. Do you think any other team would let Santana Moss jump that far over their head or let Chris ey get that wide open? Collins has been solid, and has done some things better than JC (pocket presence mostly), but he is not a better qb, even at this point.

Let's try to keep this in one thread. Thanks.

RedskinjXd wrote:there is a reason that todd collins hasn't started a game in 10 years. unless you think the entire NFL scouting system just dropped the ball on this one. plus, todd collins has not played a single down yet while trailing in a game. not ONE down. he hasn't been asked to bring a team back in a pressure situation. also, if you look at some of our losses, can we really blame them on campbell. giants, terrible second half playcalling... new england... tc is not winning that one... eagles... defense collapsed in 4th quarter... green bay... santana moss... bills... joe gibbs... and the list goes on.

that is the most ridichulous thing I have ever heard... It has been pointed out many times by the announcers, TC was to take over as Jim Kelly's replacement, but after Kelly retired, the new coach that came in didn't want TC, so they released him. So no one got to see him play while in Buffalo, probably because he was BACK-UP to a HOF QB. He signed with the Chiefs, and was playing behind Trent Green, who played pretty damn good while in KC, and who never got hurt while playing in Kansas City when TC was there. Once Saunders left, and the Chiefs were going to bring in a whole new system, TC said he had just spent 7+ years learning Saunder's system, and it would have been stupid for someone of his age, to learn a whole new system, and that is one reason why he followed Saunders to DC. So in reality, no one has really gotten a chance to see him play, he has always been back-up to QB's who could have started for 95% of NFL teams when they were in their prime, can't blame this on TC.

Also, there is a reason he hasn't played a down while trailing yet, and it is because they are scoring TD's and not FG's when they get into the red zone... TC has beaten a playoff-bound team (Giants, at their place), a team fighting for a playoff berth (Vikings, at their place) and a Bears team that has been playing better in recent weeks...