The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

HEROHAMO wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:Well, if we had gotten rid of Betts before CP got hurt, we'd have to start Rock. I'm glad Betts was here and I hope he stays. As for Lloyd, if we do trade him, I hope somehow we can get a linesman because I think we have enough guys at the WR position. If we cut him, well, we cut him, someone will grab him up, and he'll go on to maybe becoming a HOF WR because that's what we do... LOL

*HOF... sarcasm.. strictly sarcasm*

You must have forgotten the failed goaline run against the giants? Or how about the times he failed to pick up first downs. I like Betts but If we could get a second rounder for him, I would pull the trigger.

Don't you think that has more to do with the oline though brutha? Hell, Big Mike couldn't even get into the endzone either ya know? For a second rounder, oh hell yea but I don't see any team willing to do that though. Plus don't forget we may not even have CP back next year and at least we don't have to start at ground zero since he already knows the system. We've seen enough guys come in here (WRs) and have to ride da pine cause they are "learning the system", but I hear ya though, good point.

langleyparkjoe wrote:...Plus don't forget we may not even have CP back next year and at least we don't have to start at ground zero since he (Betts) already knows the system. We've seen enough guys come in here (like WRs) and have to ride da pine cause they are "learning the system", but I hear ya though, good point.

"don't forget" what? Did I miss something? Why would Portis not be here?

SkinsJock wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:...Plus don't forget we may not even have CP back next year and at least we don't have to start at ground zero since he (Betts) already knows the system. We've seen enough guys come in here (like WRs) and have to ride da pine cause they are "learning the system", but I hear ya though, good point.

"don't forget" what? Did I miss something? Why would Portis not be here?

Well, according to rdsknfan89 Portis

will be making like 40 million next yr.

That's a lot of money!!!!

And since it's written on the internet, it must be true, right?

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:I can't understand why so many people say this guy never was given a chance.

That is total horse hockey!

What you're saying about Lloyd was said about David Patten and Walt Harris... Whats your point? TJ Duckett and AA are still mediocre.

Sometimes it's us, sometimes it's the player. It's not open and shut and I'm sure that Llloyd will do better on a team that actually knows how to use WR's.

Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the tallent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Whether it be by trade or just cut, they need to get rid of sum salary cap mouchers: Brandon Lloyd, Mark Brunell (the richest 3rd string quarterback in nfl history- well now 2nd string) and maybe a controversial decision in Shawn Springs ( who is a great corner when healthy- but thats rarely the case). We need salary cap room to be able to score a defensive lineman and a strong safety, wide reciever and / or corner in the draft or via free agency.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the tallent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Oh yea, the fun bunch, Riggo and all that other stuff from 1940.

New Flash!!! It's 2007, it's not the 80's anymore. Put away your beta-max...

I don't give a darn what Joe Gibbs did back in 1923, right now during this tenure... They have yet to have a RELIABLE, CONSISTENT DOWN FIELD PASSING ATTACK. Is it the QB, is it the WR's, is it the coaches? At one point or another they've all had their hands in the jar.

The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

Im with ya bro, iv been saying it for 2 years now that the redskins need a big possesion wide out. That would help in the redzone where we can never come away with more than 3 points. He can go over the middle and overall just give jason a big target other than ey. And i love joe gibbs i really do and he put redskin football on the map. But iv never in my life wanted to see spit shooting out of the mouth of Bill Cowher as i do now. Joe and his 87 coaches arent bad but- 2 MANY CHIEFS, NOT ENOUGH INDIANS

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the talent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Oh yea, the fun bunch, Riggo and all that other stuff from 1940.

New Flash!!! It's 2007, it's not the 80's anymore. Put away your beta-max...

I don't give a darn what Joe Gibbs did back in 1923, right now during this tenure... They have yet to have a RELIABLE, CONSISTENT DOWN FIELD PASSING ATTACK. Is it the QB, is it the WR's, is it the coaches? At one point or another they've all had their hands in the jar.

The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini Jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

CLL,
Did you read my post? I mentioned examples from Gibbs first era because the Posse (not the fun bunch) was the best trio of WRs ever. So Gibbs knows how to use WRs.

I also pointed out accomplishments with WRS from this tour with the Skins (if you had bothered to read my post).

The fact that Gibbs accomplished a lot with below average talent at QB in the 80's (not the 40's) is just amazing. And it isn't like he has had a lot of QB talent this time around either! Give Gibbs Brady or Manning and their talent at WR and see how much better the team would be.

This load of bull that football is somehow that much different from the 80s is just ludicrous. Heck Vince Lombardi who had maybe a half a dozen offensive plays could still coach today if he had a good OL!

Short WRs worked out OK in St Louis and name a big New England WR that has a ring!

You type from emotion and not logic.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the talent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Oh yea, the fun bunch, Riggo and all that other stuff from 1940.

New Flash!!! It's 2007, it's not the 80's anymore. Put away your beta-max...

I don't give a darn what Joe Gibbs did back in 1923, right now during this tenure... They have yet to have a RELIABLE, CONSISTENT DOWN FIELD PASSING ATTACK. Is it the QB, is it the WR's, is it the coaches? At one point or another they've all had their hands in the jar.

The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini Jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

CLL,
Did you read my post? I mentioned examples from Gibbs first era because the Posse (not the fun bunch) was the best trio of WRs ever. So Gibbs knows how to use WRs.

I also pointed out accomplishments with WRS from this tour with the Skins (if you had bothered to read my post).

Sure Gibbs knew how to USE receivers.

Does Gibss know how to find good receivers?

Also where is your proof of our passing game flourishing.

The Redskins passing game has been near the bottom for the last five years. You cannot deny this.

Yes we are all aware of what Gibbs has done in the past!

Its what have you done for me lately!

HEROHAMO wrote:Yes we are all aware of what Gibbs has done in the past!

Its what have you done for me lately!

Not for me it isn't.

JSPB22 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Yes we are all aware of what Gibbs has done in the past!

Its what have you done for me lately!

Not for me it isn't.

ME

HEROHAMO wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the talent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Oh yea, the fun bunch, Riggo and all that other stuff from 1940.

New Flash!!! It's 2007, it's not the 80's anymore. Put away your beta-max...

I don't give a darn what Joe Gibbs did back in 1923, right now during this tenure... They have yet to have a RELIABLE, CONSISTENT DOWN FIELD PASSING ATTACK. Is it the QB, is it the WR's, is it the coaches? At one point or another they've all had their hands in the jar.

The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini Jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

CLL,
Did you read my post? I mentioned examples from Gibbs first era because the Posse (not the fun bunch) was the best trio of WRs ever. So Gibbs knows how to use WRs.

I also pointed out accomplishments with WRS from this tour with the Skins (if you had bothered to read my post).

Sure Gibbs knew how to USE receivers.

Does Gibbs know how to find good receivers?

Also where is your proof of our passing game flourishing.

The Redskins passing game has been near the bottom for the last five years. You cannot deny this.

Yes we are all aware of what Gibbs has done in the past!

Its what have you done for me lately!

Santana Moss setting a franchise record for receiving, despite being hampered by a limp wristed #8. Coles catching 90 balls, despite #8.
Those are examples of Gibbs knowing how to use WR, not of the passing game flourishing. I gave any support to that claim. That would be almost impossible with the talent at QB we've had or the lack of talent at WR behind our #1 WRs.

YOU DON'T JUST FORGET HOW TO ATTACK A DEFENSE!

I'll agree that Gibbs has not been very successful as a GM, but he has gotten a lot out of the average talent he has accrued.

Alot of the problems with the passing game this year and last year is due to lingering issues the redskins have to address in the offseason such as their lack of a big possesion wide reciever who can go over the middle and can get u 6 in the redzone and can open up the deepthreat for santana. Also its their lack of faith with jason campbell- al saunders waters down the playbook to help him adjust and the result is a bunch of dump passes and short to medium range routes. They dont take enough shots downfield to establish that threat which would open up the running game as well. But the lack of shots downfield can also be attributed to the lack of protection for the qb they have had all year. Its a complex problem that has hendered their offense which has not looked good or fluid in two years.

Assasin atm wrote: But the lack of shots downfield can also be attributed to the lack of protection for the qb they have had all year. Its a complex problem that has hendered their offense which has not looked good or fluid in two years.

A QB certainly needs time in the pocket so the receivers have a chance to get downfield. As you pointed out, Jason hasn't had much time in the pocket this year. The injuries to our o-line have have been a major factor.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:Lloyd will never be a great or even good WR. He's TO without the talent or work ethic. I just chuckled when you said this coaching staff doesn't know how to use WRs. Ever heard of Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders the most productive trio of WRs EVER? How about Santana having his career best season, by far, with limp wrist-ed Boonell throwing to him. How about Coles catching 90 balls in a season? How about taking to WRs no one else wanted (McCardell and Caldwell) and getting more production out of them than Lloyd.

Now for your Patten and Walt Harris comment. Harris has had his best two seasons of his career out in Frisco. He played for plenty of teams prior to the Skins. Patten is having a OK year, but not a good year in N.O. His first year hear he should have had 5 or 6 TD but BOOnell under threw him by 5-10 yards on each throw.

Oh yea, the fun bunch, Riggo and all that other stuff from 1940.

New Flash!!! It's 2007, it's not the 80's anymore. Put away your beta-max...

I don't give a darn what Joe Gibbs did back in 1923, right now during this tenure... They have yet to have a RELIABLE, CONSISTENT DOWN FIELD PASSING ATTACK. Is it the QB, is it the WR's, is it the coaches? At one point or another they've all had their hands in the jar.

The WR's are short, ARE is NOT a #2 WR. Moss needs someone to truly compliment him. It took entirely too long to get Rece into the field. MB04 was garbage, Jason is still learning and Gibbs has neutered Al a bit.

So please get off of that Gibbs aka mini Jesus can do no wrong and is a coach god BS. I have no ill will for the man but there are some issues that are slowly but surely getting ironed out.

CLL,
Did you read my post? I mentioned examples from Gibbs first era because the Posse (not the fun bunch) was the best trio of WRs ever. So Gibbs knows how to use WRs.

I also pointed out accomplishments with WRS from this tour with the Skins (if you had bothered to read my post).

Sure Gibbs knew how to USE receivers.

Does Gibbs know how to find good receivers?

Also where is your proof of our passing game flourishing.

The Redskins passing game has been near the bottom for the last five years. You cannot deny this.

Yes we are all aware of what Gibbs has done in the past!

Its what have you done for me lately!

Santana Moss setting a franchise record for receiving, despite being hampered by a limp wristed #8. Coles catching 90 balls, despite #8.
Those are examples of Gibbs knowing how to use WR, not of the passing game flourishing. I gave any support to that claim. That would be almost impossible with the talent at QB we've had or the lack of talent at WR behind our #1 WRs.

YOU DON'T JUST FORGET HOW TO ATTACK A DEFENSE!

I'll agree that Gibbs has not been very successful as a GM, but he has gotten a lot out of the average talent he has accrued.

Gotten a lot out of the average talent?

Yeah ok. This team has gone to the playoffs once while GIbbs has been here.

Also Santana Moss has had two good seasons.

What about the rest of the receivers?

Gibbs has sucked. The only team that made the playoffs was a running team. Where Portis carried the team on offense and you are talking about a passing offense? Since when?

Since Gibbs has returned its either the team wins with the running game or loses.

Passing game??? Please. This team has ranked near the bottom of the barrell in the passing game ever since Gibbs has returned.

HEROHAMO wrote:Also Santana Moss has had two good seasons.

What about the rest of the receivers?

Gibbs has sucked.

ahhh... nevermind.

I think the point being made is that it's not all Gibbs' fault.

In four years, Gibbs has had a short arm, no knees, over-the-hill Brunell, and a rookie at the QB position. He's had Moss and ahh... couple of... ahh... other guys at receiver. Umm... yeah, I'd probably run the ball a lot too.

This is not directed specifically at HEROHAMO, but some are trying to make the claim that Gibbs doesn't know how to attack a defense with a passing game.

Contraire mofrair.

Most of us who are old enough to have actually witnessed Gibbs coach in college and in his first tenure with the Skins know that isn't the case, because we saw it with our own eyes.

BOTH Gibbs and Saunders come from the coaching tree of Don "Air" Coryall. Gibbs won Superbowls with Mark Rypen and Doug Williams. Just check out some game film from the 91' season; we were running the score up on everyone like the Pat's are now... under Gibbs.

So... what does that have to do with now? Nothing, absolutely nothing. But that's not the point.

To suggest Gibbs doesn't know how to pitch the ball around is foolish and ignorant. He's been here less than four years and has had pretty lousy components to work with. I haven't looked up the stats, but I'll bet he's thrown the ball more than he's run it so far this year.

SkinsFreak wrote:Lloyd will get cut, get picked up by another team, have a career year and make the Pro Bowl.

I don't think so...........a Pro Bowl for him????
He isn't going anywhere.

SkinsFreak wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Also Santana Moss has had two good seasons.

What about the rest of the receivers?

Gibbs has sucked.

ahhh... nevermind.

I think the point being made is that it's not all Gibbs' fault.

In four years, Gibbs has had a short arm, no knees, over-the-hill Brunell, and a rookie at the QB position. He's had Moss and ahh... couple of... ahh... other guys at receiver. Umm... yeah, I'd probably run the ball a lot too.

This is not directed specifically at HEROHAMO, but some are trying to make the claim that Gibbs doesn't know how to attack a defense with a passing game.

Contraire mofrair.

Most of us who are old enough to have actually witnessed Gibbs coach in college and in his first tenure with the Skins know that isn't the case, because we saw it with our own eyes.

BOTH Gibbs and Saunders come from the coaching tree of Don "Air" Coryall. Gibbs won Superbowls with Mark Rypen and Doug Williams. Just check out some game film from the 91' season; we were running the score up on everyone like the Pat's are now... under Gibbs.

So... what does that have to do with now? Nothing, absolutely nothing. But that's not the point.

To suggest Gibbs doesn't know how to pitch the ball around is foolish and ignorant. He's been here less than four years and has had pretty lousy components to work with. I haven't looked up the stats, but I'll bet he's thrown the ball more than he's run it so far this year.

I dont mean to sound so negative. I am only trying to point out the truth.

Well I for one know that Gibbs is capable of putting together a passing attack. Its just that we have lacked the talent to do it these past years. So I am hoping for an outstanding draft.

Gibbs has had some of the most outstanding offenses of all time. The 91 team had an outstanding passing offense. Gary Clark posted 1300 plus yards and ten Tds. Art Monk had 1000 yards plus with eight tds. Gibbs knows how to use the talent once we have talent.

It is just frustrating to see Gibbs put mediocre talent on the field. I think it is evident that a GM is needed one who soley focuses all his time on aquiring talent for our team.

HEROHAMO wrote:It is just frustrating to see Gibbs put mediocre talent on the field. I think it is evident that a GM is needed one who soley focuses all his time on aquiring talent for our team.

I'm not a believer that a GM will solve all our problems or that our past failures can be attributed to a lack of a GM. I think that notion is just a scapegoat to a large degree. I'm not saying a GM can't help or is not needed, I just don't pin all our problems on that specifically.

As we all know, there are always examples. I've heard so many times that the Ravens front office should be the mold. Oh yeah... how are they doing? Then we saw what happened with the 14-2 Chargers between Marty and A.J. Smith. How have the Chargers been doing since?

To me, it's just one more chief who thinks his way is the right way. What have we been hearing for the last few years regarding the Skins? Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Adding a GM just adds one more chief. For me, I think continuity is key, especially for the Skins right now. New coaches, a new GM and all new schemes are not the answer, in my opinion. Ideally, I'd like to see Gibbs move into a GM role and Williams/Sauders take over as head coach. (I'm pulling for Williams)

My theory regarding player acquisitions is this. I believe the problem, to a large degree, is that we see good players perform at an extremely high level during their rookie contracts. Once they get the big contract from Snyder in free agency, they seem to let up quite a bit, or don't seem to give a similar effort. They got paid and now can just sit back and coast. Tough to predict, but a problem nonetheless, in my opinion. So perhaps we should look for younger players. Well, I do see this happening with Gibbs and staff trying to hold on to draft picks and adding guys like Heyer.