The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

JSPB22 wrote:In this case a safety must be scored by losing posession to the defense outside the endzone, then having the defender cross the goal line of his own volition and be tackled in the endzone for a safety.

Here's why I don't think that works:

As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

So, if a defender intercepts a swing pass on the two-yard line, I think the refs just blow the play dead. Or maybe if it's a fumble? There's this rule:

Only the fumbling player can recover and advance a fumble during a try.

Which may only apply to the offense. Although the previous rule about "as soon as the defense gets possession" seems to make safeties impossible.

Irn-Bru wrote:

JSPB22 wrote:In this case a safety must be scored by losing posession to the defense outside the endzone, then having the defender cross the goal line of his own volition and be tackled in the endzone for a safety.

Here's why I don't think that works:

As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

So, if a defender intercepts a swing pass on the two-yard line, I think the refs just blow the play dead. Or maybe if it's a fumble? There's this rule:

Only the fumbling player can recover and advance a fumble during a try.

Which may only apply to the offense. Although the previous rule about "as soon as the defense gets possession" seems to make safeties impossible.

Seems as if the first rule you cited makes the safety exception obsolete. I'm guessing that it is still in there as a hold-over from when that wasn't the case. They just haven't taken that part of the rule off the books.

This is directed at whoever said they should do away with fair catches.. Really? So you wanna see Randle El, Moss, Cartwright or whoever we have back there totally get blown up from a speedy kickoff team going full speed at our catcher? Dude... that's all I can say.. dude.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
This is just another ploy for them to drive up ratings and the "excitement" factor.

i agree with that. NFL knows punt returns and kick off returns are an exciting part of the game...but i also think seeing a punter nail a punt that goes out on the one is pretty exciting too

Irn-Bru wrote:

It even mentions the bizarre and, as far as I know, never-used rule of the free kick

YOUR Washington Redskins, under George Allen, used it. Dec. 26, 1971
Playoff Loss: In the franchise's first post-season game since 1945, the Redskins fall to the San Francisco 49ers by a score of 24-21. George Allen used a free kick at the end of the game in a vain attempt to tie the game. Bizarre? Yes. Fair catch a punt. Declare a free kick. Your team is then able to attempt a kick... from a place or drop... WITHOUT INTERFERENCE FROM YOUR OPPONENT!!!! All they can do is stand there and watch!

I can remember the announcing crew desperately trying to figure out what was going on!


Only time I have seen it.

Pardon the double post!

langleyparkjoe wrote:This is directed at whoever said they should do away with fair catches.. Really? So you wanna see Randle El, Moss, Cartwright or whoever we have back there totally get blown up from a speedy kickoff team going full speed at our catcher? Dude... that's all I can say.. dude.

Dude! If you ever saw Mike Nelms (a product of the CFL, btw) play, you'd just say "Yeah! Do it!" It's up to the returner to decide whether to handle the ball, or to let it go.

Countertrey wrote:

langleyparkjoe wrote:This is directed at whoever said they should do away with fair catches.. Really? So you wanna see Randle El, Moss, Cartwright or whoever we have back there totally get blown up from a speedy kickoff team going full speed at our catcher? Dude... that's all I can say.. dude.

Dude! If you ever saw Mike Nelms (a product of the CFL, btw) play, you'd just say "Yeah! Do it!" It's up to the returner to decide whether to handle the ball, or to let it go.

Nelms was great! That brings back the memories. Makes me feel old though, thanks a lot.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:True, but that doesn't seem to be a significant problem when a man has to hold a ball due to wind.

Also, look at these rules pertaining to extra-points:

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Can someone reconcile this? If the defensive team can't score, and the play is dead once the defense gets possession (rules I don't care for, but that's a separate matter) - how could a team score on a safety? Surely the don't mean if the offensive team takes an intentional safety they get a point?

I'm wondering where you got this quote as it seems screwy in the VERY FIRST LINE (not to mention the safety part) since a conversion attempt is not even a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. No time elapses. It is not a down. It is not a play from scrimmage as I have always understood that term. It is a special PLAY. It is a CONVERSION ATTEMPT. It is not a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. That's why posession can't really change and that's why the defense can't score (in the pros, I think they can at least at some level in college).

HELP! WHERE'D YOU GET THIS ONE BRO?

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:True, but that doesn't seem to be a significant problem when a man has to hold a ball due to wind.

Also, look at these rules pertaining to extra-points:

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Can someone reconcile this? If the defensive team can't score, and the play is dead once the defense gets possession (rules I don't care for, but that's a separate matter) - how could a team score on a safety? Surely the don't mean if the offensive team takes an intentional safety they get a point?

I'm wondering where you got this quote as it seems screwy in the VERY FIRST LINE (not to mention the safety part) since a conversion attempt is not even a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. No time elapses. It is not a down. It is not a play from scrimmage as I have always understood that term. It is a special PLAY. It is a CONVERSION ATTEMPT. It is not a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. That's why posession can't really change and that's why the defense can't score (in the pros, I think they can at least at some level in college).

HELP! WHERE'D YOU GET THIS ONE BRO?

DarthMonk

http://www.nflteamhistory.com/nfl_rules/try.html

JSPB22 wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:True, but that doesn't seem to be a significant problem when a man has to hold a ball due to wind.

Also, look at these rules pertaining to extra-points:

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Can someone reconcile this? If the defensive team can't score, and the play is dead once the defense gets possession (rules I don't care for, but that's a separate matter) - how could a team score on a safety? Surely the don't mean if the offensive team takes an intentional safety they get a point?

I'm wondering where you got this quote as it seems screwy in the VERY FIRST LINE (not to mention the safety part) since a conversion attempt is not even a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. No time elapses. It is not a down. It is not a play from scrimmage as I have always understood that term. It is a special PLAY. It is a CONVERSION ATTEMPT. It is not a DOWN FROM SCRIMMAGE. That's why posession can't really change and that's why the defense can't score (in the pros, I think they can at least at some level in college).

HELP! WHERE'D YOU GET THIS ONE BRO?

DarthMonk

http://www.nflteamhistory.com/nfl_rules/try.html

Thanks - I gotta keep looking into this one. Disclaimer at bottom of link:

SOME OF THE INFORMATION ON THIS SITE IS OBTAINED FROM NFL.COM,
WHO IS IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH NFLTEAMHISTORY.com

DarthMonk

From the New York Times:

The league rejected a proposal to award 1 point to a defending team if it runs back a failed extra-point attempt. Coaches were concerned it would endanger their quarterbacks, who usually are the holders.

Also, check out the top of page 108 in this pdf. It's NCAA but they address the safety score on a TRY. On page 109 (section 3) it seems to say that if it would have otherwise been a safety it's a successful 1 point conversion. It also states that a TRY is an opportunity for either team to score though I did not see point values for the defense. I think they can return missed kicks for 1 and return fumbles and picks on 2 point tries for 2.

Very weird on the safety business.

DarthMonk

DarthMonk wrote:Thanks - I gotta keep looking into this one. Disclaimer at bottom of link:

SOME OF THE INFORMATION ON THIS SITE IS OBTAINED FROM NFL.COM,
WHO IS IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH NFLTEAMHISTORY.com

DarthMonk

Sorry, that was the first that came up with google. Here is the official NFL link to the same rules.
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/try

JSPB22 wrote:

DarthMonk wrote:Thanks - I gotta keep looking into this one. Disclaimer at bottom of link:

SOME OF THE INFORMATION ON THIS SITE IS OBTAINED FROM NFL.COM,
WHO IS IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH NFLTEAMHISTORY.com

DarthMonk

Sorry, that was the first that came up with google. Here is the official NFL link to the same rules.
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/try

I just wrote the following to "Ask Jerry Markbreit" where Jerry, a former NFL ref, answers questions.

Hi, Jerry: Could you please clarify the rule concerning a TRY after a touchdown. According to the NFL Digest of Rules I found online "The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety." The "one point for a safety" part of this has me flummoxed. Thanks - and it's good to have you back.

Let's see what happens.

BTW - here's a link:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com ... -headlines

DarthMonk

Did you guys read this part??



"This continues to be the best column the Chicago Tribune carries. Often before a play, I will see the referee, or other officials moving their hands in what looks like the false start call before the snap. I was wondering what that means? --Rob S., Matteson, Ill.

The signal that you see prior to the snap is a reminder that the fourth down fumble rule is in effect. Each official on the crew gives the rolling of the hands signal to make sure that everyone is thinking about this special rule. On all fourth-down plays, only the fumbling player can recover his own fumble or advance. If the ball is recovered by a teammate, the play becomes dead and the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble, unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. This rule is also in effect after the two-minute warning of either half and on all downs and during the try for point. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your wonderful compliment."


I didn't know that. And I sware, I thought i've seen fumbles turned over to other teams. Well, I thought so anyway.

BnGhog wrote:Did you guys read this part??



"This continues to be the best column the Chicago Tribune carries. Often before a play, I will see the referee, or other officials moving their hands in what looks like the false start call before the snap. I was wondering what that means? --Rob S., Matteson, Ill.

The signal that you see prior to the snap is a reminder that the fourth down fumble rule is in effect. Each official on the crew gives the rolling of the hands signal to make sure that everyone is thinking about this special rule. On all fourth-down plays, only the fumbling player can recover his own fumble or advance. If the ball is recovered by a teammate, the play becomes dead and the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble, unless it is recovered behind the spot of the fumble. This rule is also in effect after the two-minute warning of either half and on all downs and during the try for point. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your wonderful compliment."


I didn't know that. And I sware, I thought i've seen fumbles turned over to other teams. Well, I thought so anyway.

Not sure what you mean by your last statement. Of course you've seen fumbles "turned over to other teams."

DarthMonk

Maybe Im reading it wrong. To me that rule is saying that if Portis fumbles only Portis can recover the fumble and advance on fourth downs.

Is this saying that if the defense recovers its just a dead ball, and they can't get up and run it in? I was thinking I have seen fumbles on fourth downs taken back.

If a defender recovers the fumble he can run with it; that rule is to keep offenses from 'accidentally' advancing the ball for a first down.

Ohhhh. You have to spell it out for me sometimes.

Really, I can't spell.

Irn-Bru wrote:If a defender recovers the fumble he can run with it; that rule is to keep offenses from 'accidentally' advancing the ball for a first down.

Yeah ... I think it's sometimes called the fumblerooski rule. It was an old Oakland Raider play. When you need that TD start fumblin' stimblin' bimblin' and then recover in the endzone.

This is fun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumblerooski

Raider play was called the Holy Roller

Holy Roller: A fumble advanced into the endzone by the Raiders’ Dave Casper.[citation needed]

DarthMonk