The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

GSPODS wrote:We'll all know how much of the Yankees success was due to Joe Torre this time next season. I'm guessing more credit is due Joe than some are willing to admit.

I thought it was truly professional how Torre said he was not going to place the pressure of his job security on the Yankees players.

Don't take me wrong, Torre get's a ton of credit from me (not so much lately). I think he's great & maybe we wouldn't have done what we did if he wasn't here & maybe we won't win for a long time now. Like you said "we'll see at this time next year".

Hopefully Torre will coach again next year too, so we'll see from both sides who did what. Not that only 1 season would tell for either.

After watching the PC today with Torre, it's sad to see him go, but he'll always be a part of Yankees history. & he'll be back to get his # retired.

ANT7088 wrote:

GSPODS wrote:We'll all know how much of the Yankees success was due to Joe Torre this time next season. I'm guessing more credit is due Joe than some are willing to admit.

I thought it was truly professional how Torre said he was not going to place the pressure of his job security on the Yankees players.

Don't take me wrong, Torre get's a ton of credit from me (not so much lately). I think he's great & maybe we wouldn't have done what we did if he wasn't here & maybe we won't win for a long time now. Like you said "we'll see at this time next year".

Hopefully Torre will coach again next year too, so we'll see from both sides who did what. Not that only 1 season would tell for either.

After watching the PC today with Torre, it's sad to see him go, but he'll always be a part of Yankees history. & he'll be back to get his # retired.

I'm not misjudging you in the least. But if GS and Yesman think they can simply "Plug & Play" a new manager they are sorely mistaken. Torre dealt with egos of ownership, management, players and the media extraordinarily well. Mattingly doesn't strike me as ready for that and Girardi didn't have that to deal with in Florida. I'm not certain who is the best available candidate for the position but something tells me those two aren't it. Both would be good with the players but not necessarily with the management, ownership or the press.

GSPODS wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:

GSPODS wrote:We'll all know how much of the Yankees success was due to Joe Torre this time next season. I'm guessing more credit is due Joe than some are willing to admit.

I thought it was truly professional how Torre said he was not going to place the pressure of his job security on the Yankees players.

Don't take me wrong, Torre get's a ton of credit from me (not so much lately). I think he's great & maybe we wouldn't have done what we did if he wasn't here & maybe we won't win for a long time now. Like you said "we'll see at this time next year".

Hopefully Torre will coach again next year too, so we'll see from both sides who did what. Not that only 1 season would tell for either.

After watching the PC today with Torre, it's sad to see him go, but he'll always be a part of Yankees history. & he'll be back to get his # retired.

I'm not misjudging you in the least. But if GS and Yesman think they can simply "Plug & Play" a new manager they are sorely mistaken. Torre dealt with egos of ownership, management, players and the media extraordinarily well. Mattingly doesn't strike me as ready for that and Girardi didn't have that to deal with in Florida. I'm not certain who is the best available candidate for the position but something tells me those two aren't it. Both would be good with the players but not necessarily with the management, ownership or the press.

If the next coach doesn't get to the ALCS or WS next year their will be a stir in NY. That will be alot of pressure for whoever it is, but more for a young or inexperianced guy such as Girardi or Mattingly! I personally think Tony LaRussa is the better man for the job (I really want Lou Pinella, I wish he waited), but I know GS really likes Mattingly. If it is Mattingly, anyone in the Front Office that denies GS is still running the show, is a liar!

I think we can safely assume George gave up the day-to-day operational control but he still has the final say. And his kids won't take a dump without his OK. They've probably been getting the George treatment longer than any Yankees manager ever did.

GSPODS wrote:I think we can safely assume George gave up the day-to-day operational control but he still has the final say. And his kids won't take a dump without his OK. They've probably been getting the George treatment longer than any Yankees manager ever did.

I wonder how many times each has been fired and rehired...

GSPODS wrote:I think we can safely assume George gave up the day-to-day operational control but he still has the final say. And his kids won't take a dump without his OK. They've probably been getting the George treatment longer than any Yankees manager ever did.

If my dad just gave me the Yankees, he can tell me when to take a dump too! LOL I'm sure you feel the same!

About GS, that's exactly what I think. He'll have the "final say" until he dies or becomes a vegetable.

Countertrey wrote:

GSPODS wrote:I think we can safely assume George gave up the day-to-day operational control but he still has the final say. And his kids won't take a dump without his OK. They've probably been getting the George treatment longer than any Yankees manager ever did.

I wonder how many times each has been fired and rehired...

As the old song goes, "Once a day, every day, all day long."

ANT7088 wrote:So why Joe Girardi??? I don't know who I'd want now, but I don't want Don Mattingly, that's for sure! I think Girardi & GS would be like fireworks, although I do like what he did in Florida!

I don't know - I watch the Nationals on a pretty consistent basis, and was never very impressed with his in game management. I think he gets way too much credit for the Marlins - that team "overachieved" because everyone underestimated their talent, not because Joe Girardi is the second coming of Earl Weaver. But you could certainly do worse (see: Baker, Dusty).

With that being said, Girardi is playing his cards perfectly. He has a great reputation right now, and he's holding out for a money job like New York or St. Louis rather than taking what's available in Washington and Baltimore. Like you said, in this league, the players make the manager.

Why don't you want Mattingly? I'm not sure how you evaluate a bench coach, and I don't follow the Yankees closely enough to know about his reputation. As a Red Sox fan, I personally would want someone more "hateable". Any chance you guys can trade for Ozzie Guillen?

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:So why Joe Girardi??? I don't know who I'd want now, but I don't want Don Mattingly, that's for sure! I think Girardi & GS would be like fireworks, although I do like what he did in Florida!

I don't know - I watch the Nationals on a pretty consistent basis, and was never very impressed with his in game management. I think he gets way too much credit for the Marlins - that team "overachieved" because everyone underestimated their talent, not because Joe Girardi is the second coming of Earl Weaver. But you could certainly do worse (see: Baker, Dusty).

With that being said, Girardi is playing his cards perfectly. He has a great reputation right now, and he's holding out for a money job like New York or St. Louis rather than taking what's available in Washington and Baltimore. Like you said, in this league, the players make the manager.

Why don't you want Mattingly? I'm not sure how you evaluate a bench coach, and I don't follow the Yankees closely enough to know about his reputation. As a Red Sox fan, I personally would want someone more "hateable". Any chance you guys can trade for Ozzie Guillen?

I didn't get to actually watch Girardi coach that much, I just know that he had some guy's no one heard of & did pretty good with them. As far as the Marlins "overachieving" I can't disagree because I really don't know, but that is the 1st time I've heard that.

Mattingly never coached & seems very laid back like Torre is. I think I'd just rather a guy that get's the players a little fired up & he doesn't seem like that guy. He may turn out to be great, but no one knows until he does something.

Ozzie?? LOL I wouldn't want him to be a part of the Grounds Crew! Could you imagine him working for GS?? That would be worse than the Billy Martin era! LOL, you must be kidding!

By the way, I've gained a respect for the Red Sox after what I've heard them say about the Yankees & Torre these last few days!

ANT7088 wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:So why Joe Girardi??? I don't know who I'd want now, but I don't want Don Mattingly, that's for sure! I think Girardi & GS would be like fireworks, although I do like what he did in Florida!

I don't know - I watch the Nationals on a pretty consistent basis, and was never very impressed with his in game management. I think he gets way too much credit for the Marlins - that team "overachieved" because everyone underestimated their talent, not because Joe Girardi is the second coming of Earl Weaver. But you could certainly do worse (see: Baker, Dusty).

With that being said, Girardi is playing his cards perfectly. He has a great reputation right now, and he's holding out for a money job like New York or St. Louis rather than taking what's available in Washington and Baltimore. Like you said, in this league, the players make the manager.

Why don't you want Mattingly? I'm not sure how you evaluate a bench coach, and I don't follow the Yankees closely enough to know about his reputation. As a Red Sox fan, I personally would want someone more "hateable". Any chance you guys can trade for Ozzie Guillen?

I didn't get to actually watch Girardi coach that much, I just know that he had some guy's no one heard of & did pretty good with them. As far as the Marlins "overachieving" I can't disagree because I really don't know, but that is the 1st time I've heard that.

Mattingly never coached & seems very laid back like Torre is. I think I'd just rather a guy that get's the players a little fired up & he doesn't seem like that guy. He may turn out to be great, but no one knows until he does something.

Ozzie?? LOL I wouldn't want him to be a part of the Grounds Crew! Could you imagine him working for GS?? That would be worse than the Billy Martin era! LOL, you must be kidding!

By the way, I've gained a respect for the Red Sox after what I've heard them say about the Yankees & Torre these last few days!

If the Yankees truly want an ignorant prick for a manager, George W. won't be doing much of anything in a few months. He doesn't know *sh$t* about baseball or anything else but the pissing contests between him and George S. would be a nightly media highlight film.

Is Mike Hargrove still available? He does a good job dealing with assholes. If he can deal with Peter Angelos, I'm sure he can handle George and Yesman. And he works well with existing talent. He isn't great at finding talent but that's what Assman is getting paid for.

GSPODS wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:So why Joe Girardi??? I don't know who I'd want now, but I don't want Don Mattingly, that's for sure! I think Girardi & GS would be like fireworks, although I do like what he did in Florida!

I don't know - I watch the Nationals on a pretty consistent basis, and was never very impressed with his in game management. I think he gets way too much credit for the Marlins - that team "overachieved" because everyone underestimated their talent, not because Joe Girardi is the second coming of Earl Weaver. But you could certainly do worse (see: Baker, Dusty).

With that being said, Girardi is playing his cards perfectly. He has a great reputation right now, and he's holding out for a money job like New York or St. Louis rather than taking what's available in Washington and Baltimore. Like you said, in this league, the players make the manager.

Why don't you want Mattingly? I'm not sure how you evaluate a bench coach, and I don't follow the Yankees closely enough to know about his reputation. As a Red Sox fan, I personally would want someone more "hateable". Any chance you guys can trade for Ozzie Guillen?

I didn't get to actually watch Girardi coach that much, I just know that he had some guy's no one heard of & did pretty good with them. As far as the Marlins "overachieving" I can't disagree because I really don't know, but that is the 1st time I've heard that.

Mattingly never coached & seems very laid back like Torre is. I think I'd just rather a guy that get's the players a little fired up & he doesn't seem like that guy. He may turn out to be great, but no one knows until he does something.

Ozzie?? LOL I wouldn't want him to be a part of the Grounds Crew! Could you imagine him working for GS?? That would be worse than the Billy Martin era! LOL, you must be kidding!

By the way, I've gained a respect for the Red Sox after what I've heard them say about the Yankees & Torre these last few days!

If the Yankees truly want an ignorant prick for a manager, George W. won't be doing much of anything in a few months. He doesn't know *sh$t* about baseball or anything else but the pissing contests between him and George S. would be a nightly media highlight film.

Is Mike Hargrove still available? He does a good job dealing with assholes. If he can deal with Peter Angelos, I'm sure he can handle George and Yesman. And he works well with existing talent. He isn't great at finding talent but that's what Assman is getting paid for.

You & Hargrove would make a great team then!

ANT7088 wrote:

GSPODS wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:So why Joe Girardi??? I don't know who I'd want now, but I don't want Don Mattingly, that's for sure! I think Girardi & GS would be like fireworks, although I do like what he did in Florida!

I don't know - I watch the Nationals on a pretty consistent basis, and was never very impressed with his in game management. I think he gets way too much credit for the Marlins - that team "overachieved" because everyone underestimated their talent, not because Joe Girardi is the second coming of Earl Weaver. But you could certainly do worse (see: Baker, Dusty).

With that being said, Girardi is playing his cards perfectly. He has a great reputation right now, and he's holding out for a money job like New York or St. Louis rather than taking what's available in Washington and Baltimore. Like you said, in this league, the players make the manager.

Why don't you want Mattingly? I'm not sure how you evaluate a bench coach, and I don't follow the Yankees closely enough to know about his reputation. As a Red Sox fan, I personally would want someone more "hateable". Any chance you guys can trade for Ozzie Guillen?

I didn't get to actually watch Girardi coach that much, I just know that he had some guy's no one heard of & did pretty good with them. As far as the Marlins "overachieving" I can't disagree because I really don't know, but that is the 1st time I've heard that.

Mattingly never coached & seems very laid back like Torre is. I think I'd just rather a guy that get's the players a little fired up & he doesn't seem like that guy. He may turn out to be great, but no one knows until he does something.

Ozzie?? LOL I wouldn't want him to be a part of the Grounds Crew! Could you imagine him working for GS?? That would be worse than the Billy Martin era! LOL, you must be kidding!

By the way, I've gained a respect for the Red Sox after what I've heard them say about the Yankees & Torre these last few days!

If the Yankees truly want an ignorant prick for a manager, George W. won't be doing much of anything in a few months. He doesn't know *sh$t* about baseball or anything else but the pissing contests between him and George S. would be a nightly media highlight film.

Is Mike Hargrove still available? He does a good job dealing with assholes. If he can deal with Peter Angelos, I'm sure he can handle George and Yesman. And he works well with existing talent. He isn't great at finding talent but that's what Assman is getting paid for.

You & Hargrove would make a great team then!

Sorry. I just thought that as long as we were delving into the realm of the completely ridiculous, I would see how far I could take it.

Report: Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre

The apple apparently doesn't fall far from the tree.

Hank Steinbrenner, who has begun to take control over the New York Yankees with brother Hal from their fiery father George, shot back at former manager Joe Torre's comment about the team's contract offer being an "insult."

"Where was Joe's career in '95 when my dad hired him?" Hank Steinbrenner told The New York Post. "My dad was crucified for hiring him.

"Let's not forget what my dad did in giving him that opportunity -- and the great team he was handed," Steinbrenner told the paper.

On Friday, Torre explained his reasoning for turning down the Yankees contract offer. The deal called for a one-year contract that included $3 million in incentives if the Yankees were to reach the 2008 World Series. Plus, if New York advanced to the Fall Classic, a second year would be added to the contract worth $8 million.

"I just felt the contract offer, the terms of the contract, were probably the thing I had the toughest time with -- the one year for one thing, the incentives for another thing," Torre said Friday. "I've been there 12 years and I didn't think motivation was needed."

"We knew exactly what was expected here," Torre added. "So, I just didn't think it was the right thing for me, I just didn't think it was the right thing for my players."

Hank Steinbrenner believed the Yankees' offer was fair and that Torre needed to accept some of the blame for the team's zero championships since 2000.

"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper. "I'm sorry he feels insulted, but that was not the intent."

Hank Steinbrenner said he was hoping Torre would agree to manage the Yankees for a 13th season.

"I sincerely wanted Joe to accept that offer," said Steinbrenner. "We all wanted him to accept it, probably me more than anybody else."

"You don't make an offer bluffing. What if he says yes?" he added. "I was hoping he'd say yes."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3072881

Way to keep it classy, Hank. At least we know the theater will still be quality when George finally does pass away.

(1)

"I'm sorry he feels insulted, but that was not the intent."

As every single NY sports-writer has written, a pay-cut is an insult. So is a one-year contract. Hurray for Hank "my dad did this&that" von Steingrabber.

NY media vs Steinbrenner gets ugly real fast. The NY Daily News hasn't drawn the "von Steingrabber" cartoons nearly as much in the last 12 years, but I sense more of them on the way.

(2) Why Mattingly? Because he is as calm a guy as the Yankees can hope to find...having dumped Torre. Most leaders need to shield their people from the heat that senior management generates. Good ones act as heat absorbers; bad ones act as heat intensifiers. It never works...

(3) Von Steingrabber's teams had had a pretty mediocre run before Torre: about one post-season appearance in fifteen years. That is, roughly 1980 or '81 until 1995 is one long painful blank. They won the AL pennant in '76, '77, and '78, won the Series in '77 and '78, but won zippo until Showalter's last team made the playoffs and lost.

(4) Difference?

(a) Yankees GM built the '96 team from non-stars...no big home-run hitters. People outside NY hardly noticed Brosius, O'Neill, Posada, Williams, Martinez. I laugh when I read Hank von Steingrabber boast about the team that "his dad" handed Torre.

(b) Von Steingrabber typically tore his players to pieces. True, he personally signed a load of aging former-stars, or traded his prospects for same, but he added to his own problems every season.

(c) Torre kept Von Steingrabber off the players, and kept the players focussed on the game.

(d) That's what the Yankees need in a manager, and Hank Von Steingrabber seems to be saying that he and "the family" will do everything they can to get someone without the qualities the Yankees need.

(5) If you were Mattingly, and had a perfectly comfortable life on your farm, would you want to replace Torre? Even for $2 million a year? And the players..if you were Rivera or Posada, would you want to deal with a Steinbrenner-conduit? Sure, might happen, but that's not certain.

Things I know:

- New Yorkers hate Steinbrenner

- New Yorkers loved Torre

- The Yankees have a core of fans who will go to the Stadium even though they hate Steinbrenner, and even if the Yankees don't win everything next year. G back to the attendance figures, and you'll see that there is a base of 1.5 million to 2 million fans who will buy tickets no matter how bad the Yankees get. Likewise, the Mets have a base. In the metropolitan area, there are young kids who might switch teams as one flounders and the other flies...happened in the '80's when people shifted from the Reggie/Guidry Yankees to the Strawberry/Carter Mets. No matter what, though, each team has a base that loves their own team and hates the other.

(6) Girardi...has a good job broadcasting Yankee games. Knows how the organization works. Von Stein Grabber always liked Girardi, so maybe they'll pick him. Who can predict anything about the Yankees?

"Mattingly Returned With Managing in Mind"

By TYLER KEPNER

BOSTON, Oct. 23 — Don Mattingly earned about $30 million as a player, and he had no real need to leave his family farm in Evansville, Ind., after eight years of retirement. But when George Steinbrenner called him three days after the Yankees lost the 2003 World Series, Mattingly sensed an opportunity.

Mattingly accepted Steinbrenner’s offer to be the team’s hitting coach, but his true ambition was to be the manager after Joe Torre. The job is open now, and Mattingly was said to be impressive Tuesday when he interviewed for it with club officials in Tampa, Fla.

“From the time I took the hitting job, I knew what I wanted to do,” Mattingly said in a conference call with reporters. “For every step I’ve gone through, I’ve been paying attention to the way things are handled — the way spring training is run, the way things happen in the clubhouse, just paying attention.

“I wouldn’t have come back to just do the hitting. I wasn’t really willing to say it publicly until the last year or year and a half, but I’ve known from the beginning what I wanted.”

The Yankees interviewed Joe Girardi on Monday, and they are unlikely to hold any more interviews after Tony Peña’s session today. The team has no timetable for an announcement but has been in touch with Major League Baseball during the interview process.

NY Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/sport ... ref=slogin

ANT7088 wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

ANT7088 wrote:..The Yankees made Joe Torre a HOF canidate. Not the opposite! If he was somewhere else you would never know who he is

I guess I misunderstood this - this would indicate to me that you do not think that Joe Torre would be even a little successful if he were not a Yankee, what am I missing?

You don't miss things, you just try to change what I say! There's no reading between the lines. Don't take something I say and try to make your own "indication"!

I never said I didn't thing Torre was good or anything like that! I said he will now be in the HOF because of his Yankee career. I said he wouldn't have done the same thing with another team if he never came to the Yankees. Even he said it today on in his Press Conference. If you believe anything else, don't waste my time, I won't respond to you! That's a fact!

Well excuse me for wasting your time BUT - you "wrote" this

ANT7088 wrote:..The Yankees made Joe Torre a HOF canidate. Not the opposite! If he was somewhere else you would never know who he is

AND you "wrote" this

I said he wouldn't have done the same thing with another team if he never came to the Yankees

and you know this how? Do not give me the fact that "even he said it" - that was Joe being gracious - YOU indicated what YOU thought by these words


My whole point here is that, at the end, Torre was treated badly and by GS in particular - that is typical of a lot of things this piece of dung has done over the years but to handle this situation the way he did was just particularly bad IMO - he could have handled this better and he chose not to - that is just so low class - I am very proud that Joe Torre handled everything at the end with so much class that he really showed everyone, except you, what an ass wipe GS is

SkinsJock wrote:My whole point here is that, at the end, Torre was treated badly and by GS in particular - that is typical of a lot of things this piece of dung has done over the years but to handle this situation the way he did was just particularly bad IMO - he could have handled this better and he chose not to - that is just so low class - I am very proud that Joe Torre handled everything at the end with so much class that he really showed everyone, except you, what an ass wipe GS is

Why do you have to bring me into this? What did I do to you?

sorry mate - bad selection of initials .... on your part