wheres our pass rush?????

[Fios]

Undoubtedly. Any secondary, no matter how good, can not stop a good QB/WR combo in the NFL -IF- they have time. Philthy, among others, has made a living with a combination of good pressure and a mostly mediocre secondary

You mean except for last year when solid play from their secondary allowed them to play with a line that was awful against the run and mediocre in general.

[Smithian]

Old timer, what I'm getting is this...

We don't have a CLEAR option to upgrade the defensive line with a sound player. The draft was a crap shoot according to the team as far as linemen are concerned.

For 2007 the team is JUST looking to get the defensive line to keep the blitzers clean. Don't expect much of a four man rush but for it to come from the blitzers. To be honest we haven't had a good 4 man rush since Gregg has been here. They're just trying to get the defense back to par imo.

Worst case, the 4 man rush will be addressed in 2008.

Best case, we have a hidden gem.

Maybe we'll find a decent stud during the cuts.


We have to realize that we can't fix it all in one year without throwing away the future.

Haven't we said the same thing about he D-Line each of the last 4-5 years?

There were plenty of good D-Linemen available had we made moves to pick one up.

Landry was the better pick at #6, but we would have been better off trading down and picking up Reggie Nelson. Nelson is a better coverer than Landry or Taylor.

I am happy about our draft outside of Palmer, but it could have been much better.

[Irn-Bru]

Haven't we said the same thing about he D-Line each of the last 4-5 years?

There were plenty of good D-Linemen available had we made moves to pick one up.

Landry was the better pick at #6, but we would have been better off trading down and picking up Reggie Nelson. Nelson is a better coverer than Landry or Taylor.

I am happy about our draft outside of Palmer, but it could have been much better.

The Redskins couldn't simply move down at will, it takes a trading partner. Everyone knows that the Redskins were looking for a team that wanted to move to the #6 slot, but didn't find anything. Trading down would have been nice, but it simply wasn't possible this year.

[Redskin in Canada]

You mean except for last year when solid play from their secondary allowed them to play with a line that was awful against the run and mediocre in general.

I humbly beg that old-timer and I be generously forgiven. PLEASE.

You see, we have our flawed -opinions-. We are old school. We happen to believe that the most important battles in the NFL are fought at the line of scrimmage. We have this silly notion that once you control the line, we can talk ALL anybody wants about having a superb secondary and an intimidating group of LBs and Safeties. Of course anybody can throw the chicken and egg argument that one unit helps the other. It is true. But it starts at the front. It is a matter of philospphical emphasis but also success over many, many years.

old-timer and I seem out of date and old-fashioned. We must really not know much about GW's system but we are old enough to remember that during the first tenure of Joe Gibbs the success of OUR offense and the success of OUR defense was based on DOMINANCE at the LINE.

We are one major injury away from having real problems. I am concerned about the health and age of our main DTs and the backups are promising but uncertain factors, certainly not DOMINATING NFL players. P. Daniels is a good NFL DE. I like him personally but he would be a GREAT backup. He is not a dominating DE.

I expect one of two outcomes:

1) Help will be obtained for the DL during the next few months; or

2) NFL teams may have true field days breaking rush records if and when one of our starting DL guys goes down with an injury during the regular season. Titans 2006 encore anybody?

It is a big gamble Joe. I hope you and all of us are reborn A LOT and die only a little based on your choice.

PS What was the admin of this site thinking when he named this board based on the premise presented by Old-timer and myself??? He must be an old-fashioned, ageing and ignorant dude anyways.

[SkinsFreak]

old-timer and I seem out of date and old-fashioned. We must really not know much about GW's system but we are old enough to remember that during the first tenure of Joe Gibbs the success of OUR offense and the success of OUR defense was based on DOMINANCE at the LINE.

Agreed, but there were circumstances last year that have to be considered...

...Word is the Redskins D-linemen are optimistic about a turnaround because, as one said, ''they're going to let us get after it. They never let us get after it last year.''

And that's because of our secondary getting scorched and Williams pulling everyone back and limiting the blitzes. $0.02

http://redskins.scout.com/2/642544.html

[Fios]

I didn't knock the philosophy (and, as you know, the Hogs were o-linemen) I just pointed out that it isn't a rule.

[Redskin in Canada]

And that's because of our secondary getting scorched and Williams pulling everyone back and limiting the blitzes. $0.02

1) Will a change into a more aggressive play going after the QB prevent an injury to our DL???

2) Will a change in a more aggressive play turn Philip Daniels into a dominating DE?

So, the argument made by the players is understandable and it has a great attitude. Unfortunately, it does not address the fundamental issues.

Let me put it differently from the perspective of an old-fashioned and outdated fan. If we had the chance to bring back Butz, Mann and Manley at their prime, would you consider them as starters NOW for the 2007 over and above the current crowd?

I would not ...



















... hesitate to do so for a fraction of a second-. Get it?

Weare much better off at the OL but we -may- be still one-man short at Guard.

[Redskin in Canada]

I didn't knock the philosophy (and, as you know, the Hogs were o-linemen) I just pointed out that it isn't a rule.

Dominance at the LINE means an OL versus a DL on both sides of the game. But I go further:

I argue that THIS IS A RULE.

I argue that the -fundamental- risks of injury and lack of a consistent good rush from both sides is going to be the Achilles heel of this defense if they are not addressed real soon. Otherwise, we would be gambling quite a LOT on the health of a few strong but battle-scarred knees and hips.

[Fios]

Their playoff resurgence aside, I don't think anyone would confuse the Colts defensive line last season for a dominant one

[Redskin in Canada]

Their playoff resurgence aside, I don't think anyone would confuse the Colts defensive line last season for a dominant one

The regular season -OR- the POST-SEASON? Some people noticed a slight difference, may be not ALL but some of us did.

Of course, when your offense can score over 30 points consistently, there is a bit of less pressure on the Defense. By the way, what was the numbr of SACKS that our defense had against that terrible Colts OL during week 7 last season? Three? No? Two? No? One? Wrong again?

ZERO??? Yep, thank you very much. If they had a bad OL last season, what did that say about our rush? It is a rethorical question. No need to answer (PLEASE).

LINE DOMINANCE = SUCCESS (as a RULE).

[Fios]

1) I never said the Colts o-line was terrible
2) The Colts gave up the fewest sacks in the NFL last year (15)
3) Why are we talking about their offensive line?

[Chris Luva Luva]

Cup-Man, you're just being unreasonable today!

I really don't know what you two are talking about and refuse to read up because I have a horrible headache. It's an ugly day outside and I'm going to eat some crabs later. I wonder if anyone will see this... Hmmm... I wish I drove to work today so I could stop at the mall during my break, I need some new pants for work. Welp! That's the end of my secret rant. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

[SkinsFreak]

1) Will a change into a more aggressive play going after the QB prevent an injury to our DL???

Who's talking about injuries to our d-line? Williams pulled everyone back do to our injuries in the secondary. This is a contact sport, injuries will happen and can't be predicted.

2) Will a change in a more aggressive play turn Philip Daniels into a dominating DE?

Maybe. Can you prove that it won't? As for me, I'd say that allowing then to attack will better all of their numbers, regardless of age! (probably your comeback here)












Merry Christmas, CLL! Hope you feel better!

[Mursilis]

Their playoff resurgence aside, I don't think anyone would confuse the Colts defensive line last season for a dominant one

If you're suggesting by this that our defensive line might be good enough to get by this year, I'd have to agree. Defense is somewhat over-rated, as the NFL clearly favors the offense in the offense vs. defense battle. Of the top 5 offenses in the regular season last year, all 5 made the playoffs. Of the top 5 defenses, only 2 did. Heck, Oakland had the No. 3 defense, and they still had the top draft pick! As long as our offense clicks this coming season, the defense should be OK.

[Chris Luva Luva]

Merry Christmas, CLL! Hope you feel better!

Thanks secret ninja man.

[fleetus]

This subject, gloom and doom, our D-line can't rush the QB, is getting really old. The first few threads I kind of understood, because some fans get fixated on one idea and they beat it to death. Leading up to the draft this fixation is at an all-time high because there is so much talk and anticipation about who will be drafted. Remember the Eagles fans rioting over McNabb's selection rather than Ricky Williams? That seems to have worked out favorably hasn't it. Yet the fans were ready to burn the house down over that pick. Maybe a little less narrow view of things is helpful for us fans who don't have hundreds of hours of research, personal interviews and game tape review behind these picks.

Same thing goes for the D-line. You can argue pass rush all day long, but you could equally argue pass coverage. Once you're worn out from that argument, you can start on defensive scheme, an emphasis on stopping the run or pass? blitz LB's and DB's while D-line clogs the middle or keep the LB's in coverage and assign the D-line with more pass-rushing on 1st and 2nd downs? what about injuries? do you rotate 8 DL keeping them fresh or do you have 3 or 4 stars who take the majority of snaps? Do you stunt the D-linemen much to create more rush while leaving running lanes open or do you keep them in assigned lanes more?

Bottom line is, there's alot more to consider than the bleepin pass rush ability of the D-line. ALOT MORE. If Gibbs was convinced that Landry would help us win more games than Jamal Anderson or Okoye, then I'm willing to wait and watch how Landry plays in a Skins uniform.

[SkinsFreak]

Merry Christmas, CLL! Hope you feel better!

Thanks secret ninja man.

早在清末中日甲午海战后，清政府割地赔款等黑暗社会现实激励着当时的有志青年们力

[Irn-Bru]

Merry Christmas, CLL! Hope you feel better!

Thanks secret ninja man.

早在清末中日甲午海战后，清政府割地赔款等黑暗社会现实激励着当时的有志青年们力

I get: "As early as after the end of the Qing China and Japan armor noon the naval battle, the Qing government ceded territory and paid indemnities and so on the dark social reality to drive then was ambitious the youth strength."

I agree 100%

[SkinsFreak]

Merry Christmas, CLL! Hope you feel better!

Thanks secret ninja man.

早在清末中日甲午海战后，清政府割地赔款等黑暗社会现实激励着当时的有志青年们力

I get: "As early as after the end of the Qing China and Japan armor noon the naval battle, the Qing government ceded territory and paid indemnities and so on the dark social reality to drive then was ambitious the youth strength."

I agree 100%

That's great, love it!

[UK Skins Fan]

You mean except for last year when solid play from their secondary allowed them to play with a line that was awful against the run and mediocre in general.

I humbly beg that old-timer and I be generously forgiven. PLEASE.

You see, we have our flawed -opinions-. We are old school. We happen to believe that the most important battles in the NFL are fought at the line of scrimmage. We have this silly notion that once you control the line, we can talk ALL anybody wants about having a superb secondary and an intimidating group of LBs and Safeties. Of course anybody can throw the chicken and egg argument that one unit helps the other. It is true. But it starts at the front. It is a matter of philospphical emphasis but also success over many, many years.

old-timer and I seem out of date and old-fashioned. We must really not know much about GW's system but we are old enough to remember that during the first tenure of Joe Gibbs the success of OUR offense and the success of OUR defense was based on DOMINANCE at the LINE.

We are one major injury away from having real problems. I am concerned about the health and age of our main DTs and the backups are promising but uncertain factors, certainly not DOMINATING NFL players. P. Daniels is a good NFL DE. I like him personally but he would be a GREAT backup. He is not a dominating DE.

I expect one of two outcomes:

1) Help will be obtained for the DL during the next few months; or

2) NFL teams may have true field days breaking rush records if and when one of our starting DL guys goes down with an injury during the regular season. Titans 2006 encore anybody?

It is a big gamble Joe. I hope you and all of us are reborn A LOT and die only a little based on your choice.

PS What was the admin of this site thinking when he named this board based on the premise presented by Old-timer and myself??? He must be an old-fashioned, ageing and ignorant dude anyways.

RiC: you may never know how much it pains me to say this. After much soul searching, and introspection, I have come to the following conclusion:

I agree.

There, I said it. Actually, I came to the same conclusion a while ago - maybe about 15 years ago. It may be that I don't fully understand GW's philosophy, but it does seem to require a defensive line that does no more than hold it's own against the opposition o-line, allowing the players behind to make the big plays. I always thought this was a very simplistic description of what the d-line was supposed to be doing in a 3-4 defence. So, our philosophy is to achieve with 4 defensive linemen, what other teams do with 3? I don't really understand that, but it does seem to be the only explanation for not improving the d-line so far.

And yet, we signed Carter last year? To do what? Improve the pass rush from the front four. Now I really am confused. What is our philosophy again?

Oh, how I yearn for those happy days when people built dominating defences by first of all building a line. Behind that, you could put linebackers like Olkewicz, Milot, Kaufman, Collins, Gouvea and Coleman (Wilbur Marshall would be the exception that proves the rule). Heck, you could even have Alvin Walton, Todd Bowles, Curtis Jordan, Barry Wilburn, Danny Copeland and Martin Mayhew in the secondary, and you'd still get your share of sacks, pressures, interceptions and forced fumbles.

I admit it, I have no idea how to win in today's NFL, but I thought I knew the best way to go about it - 20 years ago!

[SkinsFreak]

This subject, gloom and doom, our D-line can't rush the QB, is getting really old. The first few threads I kind of understood, because some fans get fixated on one idea and they beat it to death. Leading up to the draft this fixation is at an all-time high because there is so much talk and anticipation about who will be drafted. Remember the Eagles fans rioting over McNabb's selection rather than Ricky Williams? That seems to have worked out favorably hasn't it. Yet the fans were ready to burn the house down over that pick. Maybe a little less narrow view of things is helpful for us fans who don't have hundreds of hours of research, personal interviews and game tape review behind these picks.

Same thing goes for the D-line. You can argue pass rush all day long, but you could equally argue pass coverage. Once you're worn out from that argument, you can start on defensive scheme, an emphasis on stopping the run or pass? blitz LB's and DB's while D-line clogs the middle or keep the LB's in coverage and assign the D-line with more pass-rushing on 1st and 2nd downs? what about injuries? do you rotate 8 DL keeping them fresh or do you have 3 or 4 stars who take the majority of snaps? Do you stunt the D-linemen much to create more rush while leaving running lanes open or do you keep them in assigned lanes more?

Bottom line is, there's alot more to consider than the bleepin pass rush ability of the D-line. ALOT MORE. If Gibbs was convinced that Landry would help us win more games than Jamal Anderson or Okoye, then I'm willing to wait and watch how Landry plays in a Skins uniform.

I hear you and all good points.

Gibbs said himself that better coverage will allow for more pressure on the QB, so it obviously can be viewed both ways. The days of seven step drops by QB's are mostly gone in the NFL. Nowadays, there's a lot more three-step drops, quick passes, slants and screens to either a RB or WR, and all to avoid a rush, especially prevalent in the west coast offense. Additionally, when teams mass protect with 7+ blockers, four defensive linemen will have trouble getting to the QB, no matter how good they are.

Some of you are blaming the players for the lack of pressure, when it was a product of Williams' scheme change, due to the early failures in the secondary. And you can argue me all you want, but the fact remains that Gibbs, Williams and our defensive coordinator Greg Blache, have made it well known that they felt it more necessary to upgrade the secondary while still having confidence in the d-line, evident by their comments and the recent activities of the team.

For those that continue to disagree with the current approach by the HOF coach and his staff, I would ask the following:

1. How much time have you spent reviewing game film from last year? Our coaching staff has spent weeks and weeks on this.

2. How much time have you spent in the weight room at Redskin Park this offseason? The coaches seem to be impressed with several players there.

3. How much time have you spent reviewing Williams' new defensive scheme for this coming season? He has said there are changes coming.

4. Have any of you met with Bubba Tyer or any of the doctors to discuss the current health of specific players? Tough do just say they will get injured without knowing any of this.

5. How much time have you spent studying game film on potential draftee's or free agents? Again, I'm sure they've invested quite a bit of time in that regard.

6. How much time have you spent on the practice field watching and grading our current players? Maybe some of them are really making an impression right now.

Fact is, none of us have done any of that, and without these things, and a lot of other factors, passing judgment and declaring the coaches to be inept is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. Perhaps we could actually witness their plan of action before we draw conclusions. That's what I intend to do anyway. If any of you have a crystal ball, please let me know, I'd love to see the future with you.

[brad7686]

This subject, gloom and doom, our D-line can't rush the QB, is getting really old. The first few threads I kind of understood, because some fans get fixated on one idea and they beat it to death. Leading up to the draft this fixation is at an all-time high because there is so much talk and anticipation about who will be drafted. Remember the Eagles fans rioting over McNabb's selection rather than Ricky Williams? That seems to have worked out favorably hasn't it. Yet the fans were ready to burn the house down over that pick. Maybe a little less narrow view of things is helpful for us fans who don't have hundreds of hours of research, personal interviews and game tape review behind these picks.

Same thing goes for the D-line. You can argue pass rush all day long, but you could equally argue pass coverage. Once you're worn out from that argument, you can start on defensive scheme, an emphasis on stopping the run or pass? blitz LB's and DB's while D-line clogs the middle or keep the LB's in coverage and assign the D-line with more pass-rushing on 1st and 2nd downs? what about injuries? do you rotate 8 DL keeping them fresh or do you have 3 or 4 stars who take the majority of snaps? Do you stunt the D-linemen much to create more rush while leaving running lanes open or do you keep them in assigned lanes more?

Bottom line is, there's alot more to consider than the bleepin pass rush ability of the D-line. ALOT MORE. If Gibbs was convinced that Landry would help us win more games than Jamal Anderson or Okoye, then I'm willing to wait and watch how Landry plays in a Skins uniform.

I hear you and all good points.

Gibbs said himself that better coverage will allow for more pressure on the QB, so it obviously can be viewed both ways. The days of seven step drops by QB's are mostly gone in the NFL. Nowadays, there's a lot more three-step drops, quick passes, slants and screens to either a RB or WR, and all to avoid a rush, especially prevalent in the west coast offense. Additionally, when teams mass protect with 7+ blockers, four defensive linemen will have trouble getting to the QB, no matter how good they are.

Some of you are blaming the players for the lack of pressure, when it was a product of Williams' scheme change, due to the early failures in the secondary. And you can argue me all you want, but the fact remains that Gibbs, Williams and our defensive coordinator Greg Blache, have made it well known that they felt it more necessary to upgrade the secondary while still having confidence in the d-line, evident by their comments and the recent activities of the team.

For those that continue to disagree with the current approach by the HOF coach and his staff, I would ask the following:

1. How much time have you spent reviewing game film from last year? Our coaching staff has spent weeks and weeks on this.

2. How much time have you spent in the weight room at Redskin Park this offseason? The coaches seem to be impressed with several players there.

3. How much time have you spent reviewing Williams' new defensive scheme for this coming season? He has said there are changes coming.

4. Have any of you met with Bubba Tyer or any of the doctors to discuss the current health of specific players? Tough do just say they will get injured without knowing any of this.

5. How much time have you spent studying game film on potential draftee's or free agents? Again, I'm sure they've invested quite a bit of time in that regard.

6. How much time have you spent on the practice field watching and grading our current players? Maybe some of them are really making an impression right now.

Fact is, none of us have done any of that, and without these things, and a lot of other factors, passing judgment and declaring the coaches to be inept is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. Perhaps we could actually witness their plan of action before we draw conclusions. That's what I intend to do anyway. If any of you have a crystal ball, please let me know, I'd love to see the future with you.

Are you gonna continue to use this same argument ,that you use in every thread, if the team sucks again this year? Eventually it gets to the point where the team isn't perfect.

[Fios]

A wee bit of the pot calling the kettle black there Mr. Broken Record. If the team sucks, then we look back and determine why that happened. Where SkinsFreak and I are in agreement is that there does seem to be a philosophy in place here. I'm of the belief that the collapse of the defense last year was an aberration and not a trend, further, I think it's correctable and I think solid steps have been taken to correct it. I don't think anyone at Redskins Park would look at the defensive line and say it's all-world, what I think they would tell you is that the current corps actually isn't all that bad and can play the role required of it under Williams, who does have a track record when it comes to defenses.

[brad7686]

A wee bit of the pot calling the kettle black there Mr. Broken Record. If the team sucks, then we look back and determine why that happened. Where SkinsFreak and I are in agreement is that there does seem to be a philosophy in place here. I'm of the belief that the collapse of the defense last year was an aberration and not a trend, further, I think it's correctable and I think solid steps have been taken to correct it. I don't think anyone at Redskins Park would look at the defensive line and say it's all-world, what I think they would tell you is that the current corps actually isn't all that bad and can play the role required of it under Williams, who does have a track record when it comes to defenses.

i forgot, i did win the THN broken record award.

[SkinsFreak]

Are you gonna continue to use this same argument ,that you use in every thread, if the team sucks again this year? Eventually it gets to the point where the team isn't perfect.

Before the season is played, yes... absolutely... especially when some act like they know more than the coaches do. After the season, of coarse not. We will then have evidence to examine and facts to draw conclusions from. And if I sound like a broken record when responding to your specific posts, perhaps there's a reason.

A wee bit of the pot calling the kettle black there Mr. Broken Record. If the team sucks, then we look back and determine why that happened. Where SkinsFreak and I are in agreement is that there does seem to be a philosophy in place here. I'm of the belief that the collapse of the defense last year was an aberration and not a trend, further, I think it's correctable and I think solid steps have been taken to correct it. I don't think anyone at Redskins Park would look at the defensive line and say it's all-world, what I think they would tell you is that the current corps actually isn't all that bad and can play the role required of it under Williams, who does have a track record when it comes to defenses.

I'm nowhere close to being as articulate as Fios is, but he has summed up my thoughts to a tee. This is a valid assessment and I agree with it 120%. Further, the majority of it is based on known facts, not speculation.