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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:55 pm
by Fios
Redskin in Canada wrote:Ah! But since we are applying logic, we could apply some statistics that reveal a trend that is not subjective:
Q: How many picks made by the Redskins in the second round and lower in a Draft under Danny Snyder and Vinny Cerrato have made it to a pro-bowl or a pro-bowl type season?
A #1 Ten? OK this not realistic.
A #2 Five? Ok, this is not realistic either.
How about one? Anyone? Anybody? A single player ??? No? Are you trying to tell me that there has not been a -single- player recruited by the Skins from the second to the last round over the last decade that has not been that good?
A #3 A perfect record: 0%, Nil, Nothing, None, Nada.
But of course this is a biased and subjective statistic. We -really- find talent. We really do. We simply let others discover it first in the NFL.
Which begs the question: Why do we have a scout department at all?
1) I have no idea what you are asking here, what do 1, 2 and 3 mean?
2) I thought you agreed the Pro Bowl was a popularity contest
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:03 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:1) I have no idea what you are asking here, what do 1, 2 and 3 mean?
2) I thought you agreed the Pro Bowl was a popularity contest
Let us -repeat- the question then:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Question: How many picks made by the Redskins in the second round and lower in a Draft under Danny Snyder and Vinny Cerrato have made it to a pro-bowl or a pro-bowl type season?
Answer #1 Ten? OK this not realistic.
Answer #2 Five? Ok, this is not realistic either.
How about one? Anyone? Anybody? A single player ??? No? Are you trying to tell me that there has not been a -single- player recruited by the Skins from the second to the last round over the last decade that has not been that good?
Answer #3 A perfect record: 0%, Nil, Nothing, None, Nadie.
The
Pro-bowl or a
Pro-bowl type season, i.e., a season when we feel
slighted that one of ours with good enough or better record than one of those popularity contest winners goes in and we are kept out.
But to be BLUNT: Name a single player taken in the 2nd to last round that may have ended up being one of the best in the NFL at his position. Name one people. Only one.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:07 pm
by Fios
Chris
ey
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:15 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:Chris
ey
It took you a while but it is alright. Chris is good. In fact, one of the best picks by Gibbs during his tenure. But remember the premise of the question: one of the best at his position in the NFL. Chris is very good and he might get better but at this time he is not among the elite TEs in the NFL. We can bring the stats if you like for last season or his career. Make my day.
Remember that you have a WHOLE decade under the current ownership tp pick and choose. Try harder.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:33 pm
by Fios
1) I'm at work, I am not constantly looking at the site, the fact that it took me 4 minutes is basically instantaneous
2)
ey has been in the top 12 tight end statistically since he came into the league, so yes, let's please bring stats into this
3) Ladell Betts could probably put up Pro Bowl type numbers as a featured back
4) Jon Jansen, save for the injury years, has been a top-5 at-his-position
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:48 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:1) I'm at work, I am not constantly looking at the site, the fact that it took me 4 minutes is basically instantaneous
Just putting pressure. A tactic.
2)
ey has been in the top 12 tight end statistically since he came into the league, so yes, let's please bring stats into this
Thanks for making my point. Good but not among the elite.
Code: Select all
Stats Team G GS REC YDS AVG LNG TD ATT YDS AVG TD FUM LOST
2004 Redskins 16 9 37 314 8.5 31 6 0 0 - 0 0 0
2005 Redskins 16 16 71 774 10.9 32 7 0 0 - 0 3 1
2006 Redskins 16 16 57 734 12.9 66 6 0 0 - 0 0 0
Career 48 41 165 1822 11.0 66 19 0 0 - 0 3 1
The most productive TE made +1,300 yards last season ...
3) Ladell Betts could probably put up Pro Bowl type numbers as a featured back
Probably so but I am not talking about speculation.
4) Jon Jansen, save for the injury years, has been a top-5 at-his-position
I wish I could agree. Sorry. You see, his play is also a function of others playing around him. I really like him as a person and as a player in our team but the point remains that the Redskins have not made the kind of drafts that they used to have during the first tenure of Joe Gibbs. This is the point.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:59 pm
by Fios
No, this is the opinion ... I think
ey is one of the league's elite tight ends and I'm going to point our your hypocrisy here: you harangue about players being the product of a system and don't bother to acknowledge
ey has been hampered by the Redskins system. He'd put up big numbers in a pass-first offense.
I think Jansen was an elite guard for many years. You don't. So? That proves nothing, save that you're going to stick to your argument, regardless of anything.
Lastly, which tight end put up over 1,300 yards last season?
http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL ... _1:col_1=5
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:24 pm
by Irn-Bru
HailSkins94 wrote:My point is, it is always someone else to find the talent, not us. Other teams got these players, sometimes no more than 4 or 5 picks behind our pick. Why aren't we hitting on at least 1 or 2 of these drafted players even?????? Just give me a couple, not all of them. We are just terrible at recruting talent. Bottom line.
My point is, all teams look foolish when you look at the players that they passed up. The teams that can 'hit' on one or even two lower draft picks every couple of seasons are considered elite.
Most teams don't make good on those lower picks.
The Redskins of the 80's and early 90's were a team that utilized the undervalued college players. We have had a hit or two later players in the last 6-8 years (Rock Cartwright, Derrick Dockery; both Golston and Montgomery have promise but it's too early to say), but really not much luck. It doesn't help that we give ourselves 3 non-1st round draft picks to try, of course.
I would argue, though, that the Redskins have had some of the best success in free agents in the league, which is often where our draft picks end up going. I don't care to get into the building through draft picks versus free agency debate, but in the last 5 years FA is clearly where the Skins' priorities have been. Our success in free agency hasn't been good enough to lift us past the 2nd round of the playoffs, but it's been better than most teams, and I think that we're pretty well positioned (player-wise) going into this season.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:39 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:... and I'm going to point our your hypocrisy here: you harangue about players being the product of a system and don't bother to acknowledge
ey has been hampered by the Redskins system.
I would argue exactly the opposite. I feel that the system -favours- the position played by Chris
ey. And I do not need to call it hipocresy if you feel that the Redskins have made great strides in their lower round picks in the Draft over the last decade. Good for you and your opinion. It is simply wrong and untenable -because- the policy of this ownership has been to -sacrifice- the Draft at the expense of Free Agency and Trades.
I am not looking for anybody's approval or agreement. This is a fact. We do have ONLY three picks at this Draft for a number of reasons that favour trades and free agency. We better invest that number 6 pick wisely because our record at picking great players in the lowest rounds 7th and so on is down right miserable over the last decade thanks to poor talent discovery and evaluation.
And yes, Mr Snyder and Mr. Cerrato know absolutely NOTHING about talent evaluation on lower rounds.
Fios wrote:I'm going to gain a (probably deserved) reputation as a defend-everything-the-team-does-at-all-costs sycophant but .
Yes, you are. You can remove the BUT from sentences like this one. I understand the LOYALTY. I do not understand the lack of appreciation of the shortcomings of the Front Office.
This may be an unscientific Polll but four out of five voters in this webste so far do not trust this couple in the FO.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:51 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Irn-Bru wrote:I would argue, though, that the Redskins have had some of the best success in free agents in the league, which is often where our draft picks end up going. I don't care to get into the building through draft picks versus free agency debate, but in the last 5 years FA is clearly where the Skins' priorities have been. Our success in free agency hasn't been good enough to lift us past the 2nd round of the playoffs, but it's been better than most teams, and I think that we're pretty well positioned (player-wise) going into this season.
Well, there is a problem with such one-sided emphasis on free agency. The problem is that you can acquire -expensive- and established players through free agency but you can not have an entire team built that way. We need depth. We need youth. We need inexpensive talent developed through the system. And for all of this, good Drafts are necessary.
One could argue that the best teams in the history of the League have had BALANCED drafts and free agency acquisitions. There has not been a single dynasty built only through free agency. That is the problem. The owner feels he can buy a Lombardi Trophy. He can not. He needs talent in the Front Office, coaching staff and a TEAM on the field to get there. He does not understand that yet.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:49 pm
by SkinsFreak
Redskin in Canada wrote:That is the problem. The owner feels he can buy a Lombardi Trophy. He can not. He needs talent in the Front Office, coaching staff and a TEAM on the field to get there. He does not understand that yet.
Right. Snyder doesn't know that he needs a talented coaching staff and team. Thanks, got it.
Redskin in Canada wrote:And yes, Mr Snyder and Mr. Cerrato know absolutely NOTHING about talent evaluation on lower rounds.
Neither do you!
Redskin in Canada wrote:I am not looking for anybody's approval or agreement.
Then why do you keep beating this same dead horse over and over again around here?
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:15 pm
by Fios
Redskin in Canada wrote:Fios wrote:... and I'm going to point our your hypocrisy here: you harangue about players being the product of a system and don't bother to acknowledge
ey has been hampered by the Redskins system.
I would argue exactly the opposite. I feel that the system -favours- the position played by Chris
ey. And I do not need to call it hipocresy if you feel that the Redskins have made great strides in their lower round picks in the Draft over the last decade. Good for you and your opinion. It is simply wrong and untenable -because- the policy of this ownership has been to -sacrifice- the Draft at the expense of Free Agency and Trades.
I am not looking for anybody's approval or agreement. This is a fact. We do have ONLY three picks at this Draft for a number of reasons that favour trades and free agency. We better invest that number 6 pick wisely because our record at picking great players in the lowest rounds 7th and so on is down right miserable over the last decade thanks to poor talent discovery and evaluation.
And yes, Mr Snyder and Mr. Cerrato know absolutely NOTHING about talent evaluation on lower rounds.
Fios wrote:I'm going to gain a (probably deserved) reputation as a defend-everything-the-team-does-at-all-costs sycophant but .
Yes, you are. You can remove the BUT from sentences like this one. I understand the LOYALTY. I do not understand the lack of appreciation of the shortcomings of the Front Office.
This may be an unscientific Polll but four out of five voters in this webste so far do not trust this couple in the FO.
Who said anything about great strides? Please show me where I said that: you asked for players in Snyder's tenure drafted outside the first round who are Pro Bowl caliber players, I listed some that I think meet that qualification. Again, you are so eager to rip Snyder that you'll jump through hoops to get to that point. Now you're resorting to taking my posts out of context, that's from a different thread altogether, and you know that. I noted that you conveniently omitted the point of that post as well.
Why not go back and quote the numerous posts where I've called for Cerrato's firing or have echoed the sentiment that says this team needs a GM? Because that's not convenient, that's why. You rarely bother to address my points anyway, you simply come back, ad nauseum, with "the FO gives away draft picks, the FO gives terrible and expensive contracts to older free agents." Someone argues the approach to FA might make some sense, you come back with some variation of the above. Someone applauds the moves made in the off-season, you chime in with another verse from that same song. It's almost as if you demand that everyone be anti-FO in every aspect in order to reach whatever plane of enlightened fandom you presumably occupy.
The strangest thing to me is that in this off-season the FO has, thus far, read from the exact same bible you so vehemently preach from and that STILL isn't good enough. You've got to eventually accept the fact that we're well past the Bruce Smith and Neon years. The FO has made a series of solid decisions the past few years, more good than bad, as it regards free agency.
Maybe they make a move in the next 10 or 15 hours that makes me look like an idiot. I'll take that risk, you already see me as a sycophant, might as well embrace that role.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:30 am
by RedskinsFreak
SkinsFreak wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:I am not looking for anybody's approval or agreement.
Then why do you keep beating this same dead horse over and over again around here?
Because it's true -- with eight years' worth of evidence?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:56 am
by HEROHAMO
HailSkins94 wrote:I don't know you tell me:
2000: Redskins #2 LaVar Arrington (Best draft in years, or was it?)
Redskins #3 Chris Samuels
#9 Brian Urlacher
#13 John Abraham
#16 Julian Peterson
#19 Shaun Alexander(justified, Davis ran for 1,318 and11)
Redskins #64 Lloyd Harrison???????? (Lots of talent)
#78 Laveranues Coles
#80 Darrell Jackson
Redskins #155 Quincy Sanders (Nice pick)
#168 Marc Bulger (I guess we did have Jeff George as backup)
#169 Neil Rackers (The tandem of Conway, Husted, Murray, Hepner, and Bentley were good enough I suppose))
2001: Redskins #15 Rod Gardner (that's a solid pick right there)
#16 Santana Moss
#17 Steve Hutchinson
#21 Nate Clements
#23 Deuce McAllister
#30 Reggie Wayne
#31 Todd Heap
2002: Redskins #32 Patrick Ramsey (another solid pick)
#51 Clinton Portis (familiar?)
Redskins(this a good one) #79 Rashad Bauman
#91 Brian Westbrook
2003: Redskins #44 Taylor Jacobs ???????? (he is quick, should be able to get deep)
#54 Anquan Boldin
#56 Osi Umenyiora
#68 Lance Briggs (Name sounds familiar for some reason)
#69 Jason Witten
2004: Redskins #5 Sean Taylor (not that bad of a pick, maybe a tad early?)
#7 Roy Williams (WR)
#8 DeAngelo Hall
#11 Ben Roethlisberger
#12 Jonathan Vilma
#13 Lee Evans
#14 Tommie Harris
2005: Redskins #9 Carlos Rogers (really solid, great hands)
#11 DeMarcus Ware
#12 Shawne Merriman (anyone?)
Redskins #25 Jason Campbell (Can he play?)
2006: #35 Rocky McIntosh???? (Once again, can he play?)
2007: ?????????????? Adrian Peterson?
Anyone notice any trends? Coles, Moss, Portis, Briggs?
Bottom line is when it comes to having an eye for talent, the Redskins have none. There is no secret as to why every year seems the same, like we are in a revolving door. I wonder what we will do to botch this years draft?
Regardless of who you pick. It really dosent matter.
WHat plays a large role in the success of a player is the system he comes into. Also his development.
For instance two out three running backs in Denvers system will be successfull.
Just as most any defender has success in New England.
Put Lavar Arrington on the 2000 Ravens. He would be a bonified Hall of famer. Put Skip Hicks behind Denvers offensive line he would be a 1500 yard rusher.
We have always drafted talent. We now have a good system in place unlike before when bums like Norv Turner and Spurrier where coaching this team.
All the pieces are being put together.
ey,Samuels,Jansen,Taylor,Griffin,Portis,Moss,Washington,Springs and Randy Thomas.
This is alot of talent man. If you think about it we have more talent than most teams do. It is time to put it together.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:48 am
by SkinsFreak
RedskinsFreak wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:Redskin in Canada wrote:I am not looking for anybody's approval or agreement.
Then why do you keep beating this same dead horse over and over again around here?
Because it's true -- with eight years' worth of evidence?
Whatever. You can go around the ENTIRE NFL and point to mistakes. It happens! Last night they talked about how 5 of the last 8 first round picks made by the Browns are no longer on the team. So don't act like no one ever makes a bad decision.
Blamers and complainers, they're all the same... and it's always the same old song and dance. Some of us choose to move on in life...
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:52 am
by SkinsFreak
Fios wrote:The strangest thing to me is that in this off-season the FO has, thus far, read from the exact same bible you so vehemently preach from and that STILL isn't good enough. You've got to eventually accept the fact that we're well past the Bruce Smith and Neon years. The FO has made a series of solid decisions the past few years, more good than bad, as it regards free agency.
That's exactly right.
Nothing to complain about so far this year, so let's continue to cry and complain about the past.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:55 pm
by nuskins
Case in point....we just took a SS @ #6!!
With our Defensive line the way it is instead of trading down or taking the best D lineman (of which there were a few available @6), we take a player in a position where there is little need, just b/c Vinny and Dan think that selling jerseys is more important than winning.
I'll go puke now.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:08 pm
by SkinsFreak
^:-({|=
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:18 pm
by 1niksder
nuskins wrote:Case in point....we just took a SS @ #6!!
A SS @ #6 that was the best defensive player on the board.
nuskins wrote:With our Defensive line the way it is instead of trading down or taking the best D lineman (of which there were a few available @6),
Yeah that's what we should have done, I am the "site capologist". It would have been easy to explain why they drafted and will have to pay a guy that shouldn't have went in the top ten, top 10 money for the next 5-6 years.
nuskins wrote:we take a player in a position where there is little need,
Very little need at that position, who played next to Taylor last year anyway
nuskins wrote:just b/c Vinny and Dan think that selling jerseys is more important than winning.
They could have put any number on a jersey and got the same results, you should get a real argument
nuskins wrote:I'll go puke now.
Better yet go with the Pukes
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:24 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
1niksder wrote:Very little need at that position, who played next to Taylor last year anyway
PP wasn't even starting when he had a good season. My homey Ryan Clark was the starter with PP subbing and playing a lot of nickel and dime packages. PP is a good player but he isn't a starter. He's a great guy but we also don't know how his injury is going to react.
I think it was a good pick.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:28 pm
by SkinsFreak
And what would happen if Taylor gets hurt?
Good pick.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:30 pm
by SkinsJock
I agree - a very good pick - when it became obvious that nobody was going to give these guys what they wanted instead of "giving the position away" we got a really good defensive player and possibly the best defensive player available
So far so good
and now if we can just get through this draft without giving any 2008 picks away I will think the FO boys have done as well as they could
- we are still going to have to improve our D line but hopefully Gibbs and Williams have a plan.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:39 pm
by frankcal20
I would really like to hear what we were being offered to trade down though. After thinking about it, I guess I don't really care. A lot of teams draft the best player possible but I guess I'm in a bit of shock.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:43 pm
by Redskin in Canada
Fios wrote:Why not go back and quote the numerous posts where I've called for Cerrato's firing or have echoed the sentiment that says this team needs a GM? Because that's not convenient, that's why.
Let's do so now. Fine. I accept this point and it is actually convenient to set the record straight.
The strangest thing to me is that in this off-season the FO has, thus far, read from the exact same bible you so vehemently preach from and that STILL isn't good enough. You've got to eventually accept the fact that we're well past the Bruce Smith and Neon years.
I agree with this statement.
The FO has made a series of solid decisions the past few years, more good than bad, as it regards free agency.
I do not agree with this. But it is a long story and it is best left untouched here.
Maybe they make a move in the next 10 or 15 hours that makes me look like an idiot. I'll take that risk, you already see me as a sycophant, might as well embrace that role.
Actually, they did not. They made the best moves possible. They did not go ahead with the Briggs trade. They did not accept weak offers to trade down and they used the pick on the safest player at that spot.
Having done so, the needs of the Redskins remain virtually the same. They will need to address DE, DT and Left Guard.
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:45 pm
by Redskin in Canada
frankcal20 wrote:I would really like to hear what we were being offered to trade down though. After thinking about it, I guess I don't really care. A lot of teams draft the best player possible but I guess I'm in a bit of shock.
Atlanta but there was at least another one.