Brunell

[Fios]

Well, you're 100% wrong about Gibbs' assessments of Ramsey and Campbell. And, for consistency, you are 100% wrong about the Ramsey v. Campbell comparison. I like how you just skip over the other points made in this thread that weaken your argument.

[Fios]

Additionally, I won't pretend to recall everything Gibbs said about Ramsey but he's most assuredly been more effusive abotu Campbel than he ever was about Ramsey.

Actually, he was far more effusive about Ramsey, to Ramsey's face and to the press. What really stunned me last year was Gibbs' seeming lack of notice that Campbell was doing a great job.

That's just 100% false, you can say it all you like, that doesn't make it true. Remember, in the same way that he brought Brunell to Washington, he gave up picks to get Campbell. He inherited Ramsey and, for the 100th time, he was right about Ramsey.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Actually, he was far more effusive about Ramsey, to Ramsey's face and to the press. What really stunned me last year was Gibbs' seeming lack of notice that Campbell was doing a great job.

Actually I agree with you on this but interpret it differently.

I think Gibbs made more statements on Ramsey of support, but that was because there was so much discussion of him not supporting Ramsey. It was necessary until he actually gave up on him. In JC's case, I think Gibbs is firmly in his corner and doesn't feel it necessary to make statements of support.

Other differences:
- Also as mentioned, he picked JC and was handed Ramsey which I agree is a factor
- Ramsey was sort of like Arrington with not developing. While everyone gave him bravery points for holding the ball too long, he also got lots of stupidity points and the coaches were getting frustrated.
- Ramsey was more experienced then JC is and the coaches expected more and weren't getting it.

And again, he started 8 straight games + the pre-season. We were told how he was going to get all this work to polish his game starting the last 7 games of the season after finishing up for Brunell, but then he sucked in the pre-season and was making stupid plays the season opener. Then he got hurt and Gibbs didn't feel like putting him back in.

I agree if JC is bad in the off-season and bad in the pre-season he's going to be on thin ice starting next year (if he does) but that's life in the NFL. I don't see how you can think Gibbs is a trigger finger with QBs. Ironically he's typically blasted for the reverse.

[crazyhorse1]

Sounds good to me. I'd rather go to Brunell than Collins if a backup is needed.

Brunell being on the bench will prompt Gibbs to put him back in during Campbell's first bad game. No telling how many games he will then lose for us before Gibbs takes him out.

Give me an example of that. Where Gibbs changed QBs and then put the old QB back in after the "first bad game."

He only has what, 16 years of coaching? I'm sure that is an easy example to come up with.

He did it to Ramsey after an OK quarter.

Um. Do I remember wrong? I thought he started the last 7 games of 2004 and the first game of 2005. That would be pulling him after 8 games.

Plus he would have had the offseason and pre-season to cement the job. I'm not seeing that as "benching him after one bad game" but giving him a boatload of opportunity to impress Gibbs and failing.

Ramsey had a good year in 04, a great improvement over Brunell (check the stats). No reason to bench him. This crap about how bad Ramsey was in exhibition games in 05 is simply ridiculous. The first string hardly played the whole pre-season. No one was in long enough to get a rhythm; that goes for Portis, ey, the OL, etc. Ramsey's stats were sparse, but fine. Someone mentioned that he underthrew a couple of balls and Brunell a couple of weeks later threw a couple of perfect long passes.
That's the kind of apologia that legendary coaches get, I suppose: cherry picked negatives against one guy. cherry picked positives for the other.

By the way, last week I threw a thirty yard dart to my son; on the other hand, I hear John Elway missed his daughter wide open down by the sea shells. Put me in Joe. I'm older than Elway is, too, and too smart to throw a ball that could be possibly intercepted.

[KazooSkinsFan]

Ramsey had a good year in 04, a great improvement over Brunell (check the stats). No reason to bench him. This crap about how bad Ramsey was in exhibition games in 05 is simply ridiculous. The first string hardly played the whole pre-season. No one was in long enough to get a rhythm; that goes for Portis, ey, the OL, etc. Ramsey's stats were sparse, but fine. Someone mentioned that he underthrew a couple of balls and Brunell a couple of weeks later threw a couple of perfect long passes.
That's the kind of apologia that legendary coaches get, I suppose: cherry picked negatives against one guy. cherry picked positives for the other.

By the way, last week I threw a thirty yard dart to my son; on the other hand, I hear John Elway missed his daughter wide open down by the sea shells. Put me in Joe. I'm older than Elway is, too, and too smart to throw a ball that could be possibly intercepted.

So unusual for us to see things differently, eh Crazyhorse?

But to go back to my original point, I asked who Gibbs pulled in one game. You came with Patrick Ramsey who was pulled in 8 regular season games + 4 exhibition games so the question stands.

[1niksder]

Ramsey had a good year in 04, a great improvement over Brunell (check the stats). No reason to bench him. This crap about how bad Ramsey was in exhibition games in 05 is simply ridiculous. The first string hardly played the whole pre-season. No one was in long enough to get a rhythm; that goes for Portis, ey, the OL, etc. Ramsey's stats were sparse, but fine. Someone mentioned that he underthrew a couple of balls and Brunell a couple of weeks later threw a couple of perfect long passes.
That's the kind of apologia that legendary coaches get, I suppose: cherry picked negatives against one guy. cherry picked positives for the other.

By the way, last week I threw a thirty yard dart to my son; on the other hand, I hear John Elway missed his daughter wide open down by the sea shells. Put me in Joe. I'm older than Elway is, too, and too smart to throw a ball that could be possibly intercepted.

So unusual for us to see things differently, eh Crazyhorse?

But to go back to my original point, I asked who Gibbs pulled in one game. You came with Patrick Ramsey who was pulled in 8 regular season games + 4 exhibition games so the question stands.

Technically Ramsey has nothing to do with this discussion because he wasn't pulled. Ramsey was almost decapitated and Brunell took over at QB, Ramsey never got the starting spot back. Before the closeline there was no indication that Gibbs was going to pull him.

[skinsfan#33]

A few weeks later (after the clothesline) Brunell (in spite of all my other problems with him) did what Ransey couldn't seem to do - he hit Moss in stride twice when he was behind the defense.

DarthMonk

You meen he hit Moss in stride once! That first TD was so poorly thrown that Roy Williams actually ran past where the ball ended up. Moss made a hell of a play to adjust to the pass and Williams looked like an idiot for not getting the easy pick.

Ramsey was under throwing guys in camp because he was trying to learn some touch and he had a history of overthrowing receivers.

Brunell completed one well thrown long pass all of 2005 all of the rest of his long passes were 5-10 yards off target. The Skins won in 05 despite Brunell, not because of him. Ramsey would have done just as well if not better. But that doesn't matter now that Campbell is the starting QB. Hopefully, Gibbs has gotten his insane love of Boonell out of his system.

[DarthMonk]

A few weeks later (after the clothesline) Brunell (in spite of all my other problems with him) did what Ransey couldn't seem to do - he hit Moss in stride twice when he was behind the defense.

DarthMonk

You meen he hit Moss in stride once! That first TD was so poorly thrown that Roy Williams actually ran past where the ball ended up. Moss made a hell of a play to adjust to the pass and Williams looked like an idiot for not getting the easy pick.

Ramsey was under throwing guys in camp because he was trying to learn some touch and he had a history of overthrowing receivers.

Brunell completed one well thrown long pass all of 2005 all of the rest of his long passes were 5-10 yards off target. The Skins won in 05 despite Brunell, not because of him. Ramsey would have done just as well if not better. But that doesn't matter now that Campbell is the starting QB. Hopefully, Gibbs has gotten his insane love of Boonell out of his system.

Once or twice he did what Ramsey had failed to to REPEATEDLY. Gibbs was tired of the consistent and repeated underthrows of wide open guys that stretched back into the season before and was looking for a reason (IMHO) to pull him.

Not saying the 'Skins did well because of rather than in spite of Brunell. Just saying why he went in and did not get pulled once Ramsey was OK physically. Also, to say they would have done just as well or better with Ramsey is PURE speculation. All indications in camp and in that first quarter pointed to him (Ramsey) not being the guy.

By the way, it seemed like the refs thought it was open season on Ramsey. Defenders could do almost anything to him (spearing on the way down for instance) and not get called for anything.

Also, I'm having a hard time beleiving that other than the one in-stride pass to Moss that you acknowledge all the rest of his long throws that whole year were "5 to 10 yards off target." Sorry - not buying that one.

Either way, Ramsey was sucking and deserved to be pulled without being clotheslined.

DarthMonk

[redskindave]

Thats fine with me, I wouldnt mind seeing him stay as a back up

[HEROHAMO]

We should just put him on the inactive list after we restructure his contract. Or Injury reserve and make up some fake injury.

[Fios]

Brunell completed one well thrown long pass all of 2005 all of the rest of his long passes were 5-10 yards off target.

So the Redskins assembled literally the greatest corps of receivers in NFL history? I mean, five yards is a stretch but to overthrow someone by 10 yards and still have them make the catch (Brunell was 11th in passing yardage in 2005, he had 45 completions of 20 yards or more and 9 of those went for over 40 ... but I'm sure you knew all of that) is truly impressive and, I'd wager, unprecedented. I guess when Santana Moss praised Brunell for his deep ball, what he meant to say was "those were the worst throws in history, I have super-human speed."

[skinsfan#33]

Brunell completed one well thrown long pass all of 2005 all of the rest of his long passes were 5-10 yards off target.

So the Redskins assembled literally the greatest corps of receivers in NFL history? I mean, five yards is a stretch but to overthrow someone by 10 yards and still have them make the catch (Brunell was 11th in passing yardage in 2005, he had 45 completions of 20 yards or more and 9 of those went for over 40 ... but I'm sure you knew all of that) is truly impressive and, I'd wager, unprecedented. I guess when Santana Moss praised Brunell for his deep ball, what he meant to say was "those were the worst throws in history, I have super-human speed."

I don't think he over threw anyone, but he consitantly underthrew receivers. Patton would have had 5 or 6 TDs if Mark had been anywhere on mark. I was sick and tired of Skins' WR being 3-5 yards past DBs only to have to wait for the ball to get there and turn into DBs themselves to avoid the int.

To Darth Monk the only time Ramsey ever under threw WRs on a consitant basis was that preseason. As far as Gibbs being tired of Ramsey's play, I still can't figure that one out. Sure Ramsey was bad during pre-season, but he out performed Mark's 9 games in 04 to his own 7 games. And again with less playing time in the 05 opener he outperformed MB. Why Gibbs benched Ramsey has nothing to do with on feild performance, because he was simply better than #8. Anything else is opion, not backed up with fact!

[Mursilis]

I'm not going to get drawn into the Ramsey/Brunell debate yet again, but I'm glad to finally have JC as the starter. This is one fan who never wants to see Mark Brunell step onto the field in a Redskins uniform again.

[skinsfan#33]

I'm not going to get drawn into the Ramsey/Brunell debate yet again, but I'm glad to finally have JC as the starter. This is one fan who never wants to see Mark Brunell step onto the field in a Redskins uniform again.

I'm just afraid Gibbs will "Ramsey" Campbell. He benched Ramsey for no logical reason, why won't he do the same to Campbell!

[crazyhorse1]

Actually, he was far more effusive about Ramsey, to Ramsey's face and to the press. What really stunned me last year was Gibbs' seeming lack of notice that Campbell was doing a great job.

Actually I agree with you on this but interpret it differently.

I think Gibbs made more statements on Ramsey of support, but that was because there was so much discussion of him not supporting Ramsey. It was necessary until he actually gave up on him. In JC's case, I think Gibbs is firmly in his corner and doesn't feel it necessary to make statements of support.

Other differences:
- Also as mentioned, he picked JC and was handed Ramsey which I agree is a factor
- Ramsey was sort of like Arrington with not developing. While everyone gave him bravery points for holding the ball too long, he also got lots of stupidity points and the coaches were getting frustrated.
- Ramsey was more experienced then JC is and the coaches expected more and weren't getting it.

And again, he started 8 straight games + the pre-season. We were told how he was going to get all this work to polish his game starting the last 7 games of the season after finishing up for Brunell, but then he sucked in the pre-season and was making stupid plays the season opener. Then he got hurt and Gibbs didn't feel like putting him back in.

I agree if JC is bad in the off-season and bad in the pre-season he's going to be on thin ice starting next year (if he does) but that's life in the NFL. I don't see how you can think Gibbs is a trigger finger with QBs. Ironically he's typically blasted for the reverse.

He didn't suck in preseason. He was superb the season before and more or less helped the Skins end the season respectabily (against first class competition) rather than end in disgrace. He played well in the first game of the season, throwing for about a 100yds and 1 touchdown (called back) in a little over a quarter.

By the way, when Ramsey was benched by Gibb's on that famous pretext, he was the top Redskins ground gainer over a four year period, dwarfing the outputs of Brunell, Portis, and all overs. He was averaging about 200 yds a game and a TD and a half per game, inspite of the fact he, for the most part, was throwing to terrible receivers and behind a horrible line.

[Champsturf]

I'm not going to get drawn into the Ramsey/Brunell debate yet again, but I'm glad to finally have JC as the starter. This is one fan who never wants to see Mark Brunell step onto the field in a Redskins uniform again.

[InsaneBoost]

Brunell is a decent QB, I seriously think his injury crushed his performance. He did hurt his throwing arm remember.

However, I do want to see Jason play, and I did believe it was time to get him going because I couldn't see Brunell doing the things Jason can do in his years to come.

But as a backup, I think Brunell can do the job for the team.

[KazooSkinsFan]

He didn't suck in preseason. He was superb the season before and more or less helped the Skins end the season respectabily (against first class competition) rather than end in disgrace. He played well in the first game of the season, throwing for about a 100yds and 1 touchdown (called back) in a little over a quarter.

By the way, when Ramsey was benched by Gibb's on that famous pretext, he was the top Redskins ground gainer over a four year period, dwarfing the outputs of Brunell, Portis, and all overs. He was averaging about 200 yds a game and a TD and a half per game, inspite of the fact he, for the most part, was throwing to terrible receivers and behind a horrible line.

The question was who was pulled after one bad game. You said Ramsey, who was pulled after 8 regular season games and 4 pre-season games not answering the question with a response meeting the criteria laid out in the question. Or more generally, who has Gibbs ever pulled in 16 or so seasons after one bad game, which is what you said he would to to JC.

Unless you're seriously arguing that Gibbs was happy with Ramsey's play for the last 7 games of 04 (which were OK, not spectacular) his off season and pre-season and then yanked him in the first game just because he didn't like his play in that game. That would technically meet the criteria but be an absurd argument.

I'm not really interested in debating Ramsey except I don't know what you are looking at because I kept seeing a guy with promise and who was willing to take a beating who got a ton of chances and never played like the solution. I was behind him a long time, but by the time he lost the job for the last time thought it was time to let him go because he couldn't react faster. He had the arm and thought too slow and held the ball too long, Brunell had the knowledge and a dead arm.

[KazooSkinsFan]

But to go back to my original point, I asked who Gibbs pulled in one game. You came with Patrick Ramsey who was pulled in 8 regular season games + 4 exhibition games so the question stands.

Technically Ramsey has nothing to do with this discussion because he wasn't pulled. Ramsey was almost decapitated and Brunell took over at QB, Ramsey never got the starting spot back. Before the closeline there was no indication that Gibbs was going to pull him.

While you're right technically that he wasn't pulled, it is true he was available and not put back in. I thought it easier to argue the unambiguous point he was pulled in 8 games + pre-season and not 1 then whether not putting back in is pulling or not.

[Fios]

kazoo - address the post, not the posters

[TincoSkin]

the real issue here is that brunell will be back on the team..

i think its because he wants a superbowl ring. he knows we are going to be an offensive powerhouse next season and if our D plays up to its players ability then we will have a superbowl opportunity.

brunell wants a ring and i say we win one for him

[Mursilis]

the real issue here is that brunell will be back on the team..

i think its because he wants a superbowl ring. he knows we are going to be an offensive powerhouse next season and if our D plays up to its players ability then we will have a superbowl opportunity.

brunell wants a ring and i say we win one for him

If Brunell truly thinks this team is his best shot for a Super Bowl ring, he needs to be tested for more than steroids.

[REDEEMEDSKIN]

I believe the Book on Mark Brunell is not yet finished, and it will have its storybook ending (Comes off the bench in SB XLII after JC gets knocked outta the game in the second quarter. And for a little over one half, Brunell becomes the Brunell of old, and puts up 28 pts to bury the Chargers, and take the MVP).

Of course, I'm only a little biased.

[Houligan26]

Anybody who mentions JC getting knocked out in any way shape or form, joking or not joking, should be suspended from this website for a minimum of a week. You just made me cry

[DarthMonk]

[/quote]

He didn't suck in preseason. He was superb the season before and more or less helped the Skins end the season respectabily (against first class competition) rather than end in disgrace. He played well in the first game of the season, throwing for about a 100yds and 1 touchdown (called back) in a little over a quarter.

By the way, when Ramsey was benched by Gibb's on that famous pretext, he was the top Redskins ground gainer over a four year period, dwarfing the outputs of Brunell, Portis, and all overs. He was averaging about 200 yds a game and a TD and a half per game, inspite of the fact he, for the most part, was throwing to terrible receivers and behind a horrible line.[/quote]

He DID suck in preaseason. I saw all his snaps and he was terrible. He was NOT SUPERB the season before though he was OK. An average of 200+ yards and 1.5 TDs can be good but it ain't superb. I think as Gibbs watched the preseason unfold he began to regret he had named Ramsey the presumptive starter. But he did not want to renig so he hoped for a good reason to bench him other than several bad performances. I maintain (and have not heard a good counter-arguement) that Gibbs was looking for a reason to bench Ramsey. My evidence is that 1) He did. 2) When healthy (perhaps in the same game) Ramsey was not brought back in. 3) Bram Weinstein was at every practice and predicted it on the air before the season started.

As for Brunell, he was a good pick-up for WAY too much money. I'm guessing that if Gibbs had just waited a month or so he could have signed him as the "veteran back-up" who helps groom the young guy and steps in if needed for something like 2 million a year.

Oh well, he has played terribly AND great for us - sometimes in the same game. In a way, we cannot afford to cut him. He still MAY end up being very valuable.

DarthMonk