The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Houligan26 wrote:On the other hand, I would also take anyone on this message board over Cerrato if they had the cajones to say no to Mr.Snyder

Yes, we have some excellent potential GMs on the site who always tell us with 20/20 hindsight what we should have done. They also tell what we should do, but only remember the times they were right. The problem with being a GM is others remember when you were wrong even if you don't.

Houligan26 wrote:Teams ran at him a lot, that could be contributed to having Holdman on his side but still he wasn't exactly stout

Hmm...I thought Carter was brought in the be a pass rushing end, not a run stopper. Shows how much I know. If that's the case, he is a "bust so far."

I sense the sarcasm. Last time I checked if your playing defensive end its usually helpful to be well rounded. I don't think the coaching staff would say "hes great, he rushes the qb like we want and he gets ran at for chunks of yards." The skins didnt pick him up to be one demensional. I hope he continues to progress like he did at the end of the season because he was getting at the qb and making tackles in the backfield. He is not a good pickup or a bad pickup yet, the jury is still out. That is the only reason I debated using the words "good pickup"

[quote="Houligan26"] The skins didnt pick him up to be one demensional. quote] Enlighten me....You know this as fact based on what? Didn't they get Archuleta to be one dimensional, but were forced to use him in ways he's just not good. If they picked up one defensive player to be used only one way, who's to say they didn't do that with another? Just wondering.

This turned more into a defensive discussion and not really about GW's ability to be a head coach... but I'll run with it. Sorta.

I think it's a valid point that GW has not been a good personel man. After all, being a GM in the NFL takes a lot of skill. Trades are key in baseball... but in football a GM has to intimately know the offense and defensive philosophies in order to get the right players, which is why so many head coaches have that power written into their contracts...

Still, GW has a reputation for having too much confidence in his schemes, and too little confidence in the players.

This causes two problems:

1.) You lose key players.
-Yeah, the scheme is more important IMO... but losing your MLB and your superstar OLB to a division rival because the defensive scheme is so good you don't need them is silly. Same goes for losing half of the starting secondary after you had the 3rd best D in the league.

2.) You sign new players who are not right for the scheme.

-Adam Achuletta was not the right player for this defense. We wanted him to become something he was not, and that's a problem Gregg Williams has. He looks at guys like Arrington, Archuleta, etc. and says "Well, they've never been able to _____ before, but I can change them." Problem is, it never, ever works.

When you get a guy, he is what he is.

Now I think, when Rogers settles in and resumes covering number 2 recievers, and when Carter has a full season to work his magic they'll be fine players... but when we get guys like Archuletta, and have a run defense so bad we force Sean Taylor to constantly play close to the line... these problems keep happening.

People also say the most important thing about coaching is relating to people, and making them want to play for you... but somehow Bill Belichick seems to get by with no personality...

GW has produced quality defenses everywhere he has gone, incluidng here. But since the first year, the players have changed every year. I don't remember the last time that the Redskins started 90%, or even 50%, of the same players 2 consecutive years in a row. Maybe, as many have said, GW thought his scheme was the component that made the defense great. If he did, he got a real dose of castor oil from last year and maybe learned a lesson.

For my money, keep the defense together this year rather than bring in a lot on new FA's and the defense will improve. There are some promising players like Golston, some experienced players like Springs, some developing players like Taylor and some players that just did not seem to get with it last year like Archuleta. I am not saying that a FA here and there to fill a need isn't OK, just not a wholesale signing.

Personally... I would keep Arch and use him in certain situations... amd depending on McIntosh's progress.... find a very good MLB moving Marshal to OLB.

Maybe even get a new CB (as Springs is getting older.)

They simply need to grow their own players, mold them into what they need to do to make this system work. STOP bringing in other teams unwanted trash and forcing round pegs into square holes.

[quote="Chris Luva Luva"]They simply need to grow their own players, mold them into what they need to do to make this system work. STOP bringing in other teams unwanted trash and forcing round pegs into square holes.[/quote]

Agreed. As for your comments Champ, they are just absurd. So I will agree with you so you can see how much it doesn't make sense. GW and the skins bring in players to be one demensional. Do you really think they got AA to be one dimensional. Does any coach in the league want their safeties to be completely one dimensional??? Think about it

Skinsfan55 wrote:Still, GW has a reputation for having too much confidence in his schemes

-Yeah, the scheme is more important IMO...

What???

In your opinion, the scheme is more important and paramount, but Williams is too confident in his schemes??? If the scheme is paramount, in your opinion, should he have little confidence in his schemes? What are you attempting to say?

I think it's a valid point that GW has not been a good personel man.

Based on what? The signing of Arch? Please. Like I said in my last post; what about the other guys, like Taylor or Washington? Arch's failures ARE NOT WILLIAMS FAULT! You can't blame Williams for a guy who admits he lost focus and did not give 100%

How do you know that Williams had anything to do with Clark or Pierce leaving? Does Williams write the checks or draw up contracts? Maybe they wanted to leave, for more money or whatever. Maybe Williams wanted them to stay but couldn't MAKE them stay. Ever consider that?

I like the arrogance in Williams, especially for a defensive coach. What do you want, a friggin wuss for a coach? Does Parcells show a little arrogance? Damn right and for good reason.

2.) You sign new players who are not right for the scheme.

Again, WHAT???

You think they said in the coaches meetings, "hey, this guy doesn't fit our schemes or system, but what the hell, let's sign em' anyway and give em' a huge contract... you know, just for the sake of signing someone." What a joke. You really think they would sign a player they KNEW wouldn't fit their system???

Again, ALL of the players that this team has signed have already proven themselves elsewhere, that's why they got signed and got the contracts they did. I agree that not all of them have worked out. But let's blame the players for that, not the coach or the owner. I mean, at what point do the players themselves have to step up and take the blame or the responsibility or what THEY DO ON THE FIELD.

Thanks to Irn-Bru and 1niksder for offering rational arguments on the subject. I agree with you both. Good job, guys.

You gotta keep a level head. Your losing it. Anyone looking defense was taking Taylor in that position. He didn't exactly make an amazing evaluation on his own there. Almost every team in that draft were high on Taylor.

Irn-Bru wrote:

Houligan26 wrote:You didn't need to write all that, I originally said Carter finished strong. I am also saying he has a lot more to prove.

And, while I agree with you on this, I disagree that Carter can't be used to show that Williams has been good on personnel decisions.

Stats don't show anywhere near as much as watching every game.

Again, exactly my point. From what I saw of Carter, he really came on at the end of the season. It's part of the reason that I'm glad that he's on board.

I don't know In-Bru, I think you're missing the point. See this is how it works. ALL the personnel moves were wrong. Including the ones that were right.

But the ones that were right were not perfect. You know, they started slow (AC) or their role was changed due to injury (AA). And so they were actually the wrong decision even if they worked out, which in no way makes them right.

But everything is the fault of the coaches. It's Gibbs fault becuase he runs the team so everything is his fault. The D's problems are GWs and the O's AS's fault because he runs the O.

So it's really everyone's fault, but the poster, who is showing their knowledge of what we should have done, which is the same as knowing what we should do, so we need listen to them. Except for the things they were wrong about, and since they don't remember those they actually are not factors and can be ignored.

So, if we fire the coaches and can all the players we will in fact solve all the problems. We won't be able to sign anyone because dead cap exceeds the total cap, but had we listened to them before we wouldn't have had this issue.

And stop this nonsense about successful coaches. That they won before and posted top 10 Ds and that sort of thing was proven to be wrong because they had a bad year. No good coach has a bad year so no matter how many good seasons they had pointing to that is just lame. The bad year is the proof they are a bad coach.

Does it make sense now?

Kazoo always the voice of reason

Houligan26 wrote:Kazoo always the voice of reason

I don't think even I could say that with a straight face, but THANKS!

Houligan26 wrote:You gotta keep a level head. Your losing it. Anyone looking defense was taking Taylor in that position. He didn't exactly make an amazing evaluation on his own there. Almost every team in that draft were high on Taylor.

I'm losing it? Keep a level head? Ok, dude.

You've missed my point.

When we signed these free agents, they were good moves at that time, because these free agents had already proven themselves in this league. Players who are drafted have not yet proven themselves yet, at this level. For those of us who are old enough, still remember the disasters in Heath Shuler and Desmond Howard, just to name a few in many. UNPROVEN players at this level who were drafted and failed miserably. I'll bet Gibbs hasn't forgotten either.

The fact that some of these free agents failed to perform on the field was not the fault of the coach or the owner. There are too many other factors than to just say the coach is an idiot for signing those guys. No one said that when they were initially signed. Only after a tough season. So perhaps you could lend your crystal ball to the coaching staff, so they don't sign or draft poor players in the future. Better yet, why don't you just submit your resume and a cover letter explaining why the current staff sucks and why your approach or philosophies would be better.

If last year was Williams first year as a coach, then I might agree that his system or philosophies can't work in this league, or that he is an average coach at best. But the fact that Williams has already had successful defenses, with several different teams, for several years, offers proof that he is a good coach and has an effective system. It is well known that his schemes are complex. So I expect that players like Carter may take some time to get comfortable with the system and confident that their known abilities can be effective.

Point? Bash the players for not performing up to a level that they were known for and were signed for, not the coach for signing them.

I see what your saying but we have different opinions. You say that it isnt the fault of the coach. I think guys like Bill Belichek, these kind of things dont happen with him. AA was a poor evaluation, at the time of the move, many people disagreed with it. Don't want to sound like a know it all but I didn't like the move, especially for the money

Houligan26 wrote:I think guys like Bill Belichek, these kind of things dont happen with him.

That's funny! We need to sign a PERFECT coach. And Bilicheck is perfect, mistakes don't happen with him. That's where we went wrong! I got it now.



Oh, wait, you're serious aren't you?

It was an example but does Belichek take AA for even half the price????

SkinsFreak wrote:Snip assorted nonsense.

1.) I never said the scheme was paramount. You put those words in my mouth.

What I did say was that a scheme is more important than the players... but not to the extent that GW seems to think.

He had a perfect MLB for his system, and the team (maybe not even GW's decision) decided not to even offer him fair market value to return. Since Joe Gibbs offered GW full personell control of the defense we have to assume though, that it was Williams' call. The same with Clark who also worked perfectly in the system...

Williams seems to have absolute faith in the system, like Shanahan has in his offensive system... where he can just plug in ANYONE. But it's not working in Washington thus far.

2.) Yes, Williams made a good choice in Washington. I like him a lot. We can't give him any credit though for Taylor. It was either Taylor or Winslow... Gibbs and Williams probably discussed it but in any case, there wasn't really a choice other than offense or defense and Gibbs eventually made the final decision (after talking with Portis.)

Williams also got Griffin... but left the rest of the defensive line a little thin... in fact, the whole defense lacks depth, and I think that is the mark of a bad personel guy.

3.) Yes, I absolutely believe that Williams had meetings with defensive guys... and they said "Archuleta is a good run stopper... but he can't cover worth a lick." and GW ignored them because he thought that Archuletta was big enough, physically gifted enough and a good enough football player, that he would adapt in the system.

I believe this because it's his reputation. People who know him all around the league talked to the Washington Post for that excellent three part series on the Redskins failed season and said pretty much the same thing. Verbatim.

Gregg Williams has so much confidence in his system, that he ignores the weaknesses of certain players, concentrating mainly on physical tools and then attempts to mold them... or as CLL put it... driving a square peg through a round hole.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Houligan26 wrote:I think guys like Bill Belichek, these kind of things dont happen with him.

That's funny! We need to sign a PERFECT coach. And Bilicheck is perfect, mistakes don't happen with him. That's where we went wrong! I got it now.



Oh, wait, you're serious aren't you?

Of course Belichek is not perfect... but he is both an excellent coach and a very good GM.

He does not seem to make personel mistakes on the same scale as the Redskins. He's not perfect, but he'd rather go for low cost-high reward types.

Sure, he built a pretty flimsy reciever corps this season, but he had some guys who might have blossomed, but flamed out... still, when is the last time the Patriots had a free agent bust?

Going to battle with such a poor set of recievers may have been a mistake (or they may have been the best the Pats could realistically acquire) but it didn't end up costing the Patriots very much at all. (I don't think poor recievers cost them a Superbowl bid.)

Houligan26 wrote:It was an example but does Belichek take AA for even half the price????

First, I'm not really bashing you personally. If you took it that way, then I am sorry. I've become bitter to an extent, and not with the organization or the coaches, but with some of these fans that think they know it all. It's so much easier to shout advise from the safety of cover than it is to perform at the point of attack.

Second, it's actually funny that you brought up Belichik. Have you seen the news today regarding Belichik and Ted Johnson? Check it out. No one is perfect, and he is not a perfect coach.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2751614

Third, I just think a lot of people are simply trying to over-analyze things. Some of the stuff I've read is just baffling; fire Gibbs, fire Williams, fire Saunders, oust Snyder, trade Portis, trade Taylor, somehow get LaVar back... etc. It's mind boggling the things I read. And furthermore, it's really funny to me how these same people say "we should"; as if the fans have any say in the matter or like they know better. Whatever.

And by the way, until we actually get screwed by the cap, I could care less how much money Snyder wants to pay someone. All the so-called experts always say we are going to be in cap hell, yet it never happens. Why? The fact that Snyder is willing to spend the money he makes off the team on players that can potentially help the team, is proof that he is not just screwing over the fans, as some suggest. Fans in Miami and Phoenix make that claim, and rightfully so, cause their owners simply pocket the money and spend nothing to help their respective teams, with regard to player personnel.

Houligan26 wrote:
Agreed. As for your comments Champ, they are just absurd. So I will agree with you so you can see how much it doesn't make sense. GW and the skins bring in players to be one demensional. Do you really think they got AA to be one dimensional. Does any coach in the league want their safeties to be completely one dimensional??? Think about it

Actually, yes I do think they brought him here to be MAINLY one dimensional. They, as well as the entire league, knew that coverage was NOT his strong point. Prioleau was the starter with coverage skills, not the hammer at the LOS. Sadly, he was hurt on the first play of the first game of the year, thus forcing Archuleta to be on the field in passing situations.

Does any coach in the league want their safeties to be completely one dimensional???

Of course not, but you take what you can get. It's sad but true, but not every player in the league is the perfect player in all situations.

Thank you for substantiating your points though. I appreciate it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:... No good coach has a bad year so no matter how many good seasons they had pointing to that is just lame. The bad year is the proof they are a bad coach.

Does it make sense now?

I'm a believer, makes sense to me. Bill B's bad years in Cleveland prove that he was a bad coach - you know it and I know he's a loser but I still cannot figure why so many stupid fans here in NE still think he knows what he is doing.



Greg is regarded as a very good defensive coach by his peers - I do not think there are many other opinions that really count - anyone who does not agree with that fact obviously is implying that they know better than those other NFL coaches - oh by the way, I have a feeling that that means you think Gibbs does not know anything about coaches. Gibbs thought so much of GW that he has set the stage for him to take over here.

Skinsfan55 wrote:still, when is the last time the Patriots had a free agent bust?

They have free agents come and go all the time (hi to you, Duane Starks!), but the difference is...their busts are low-cost ones.

Their FA busts don't make national news because they usually go with low-cost contracts for them...Also remember, he drives a *sh$t* of players away that can still play (Lawyer Milloy...pro bowl safety, Law the CB, Deion Branch & David Givens). They just won't sign older guys to big deals, kinda like how the Eagles do it.

Instead of using big FA signings to improve their team, they use this thing called the draft to build depth. I like what I've heard about that thing called the draft. It sounds so...foreign. Maybe the Redskins might think about using it?

SkinsJock wrote:Greg is regarded as a very good defensive coach by his peers - I do not think there are many other opinions that really count - anyone who does not agree with that fact obviously is implying that they know better than those other NFL coaches - oh by the way, I have a feeling that that means you think Gibbs does not know anything about coaches. Gibbs thought so much of GW that he has set the stage for him to take over here.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.