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Re: there is no hope

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:36 pm
by sch1977
die cowboys die wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
die cowboys die wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101079.html
everybody, this is extremely important:

STOP GIVING THEM MONEY.

DO NOT BUY ANY REDSKINS MERCHANDISE.

DO NOT PAY GOOD MONEY TO GO TO GAMES.

Well put, I think you should do all this stuff. Can you also go to the Cowboy fan site and post there?

Thank you for your input.


go ahead and keep enabling the ones who turn our franchise into a laughingstock. that's being a great "fan". :roll:

kind of like the wife who doesn't report her abusive husband because she "loves" him.


Look, nobody is saying you have to support the decisions the FO makes. But we (most of us anyway) are true fans! Has Danny screwed things up? Yes! But, he is trying to build a winner. It is clear though that Vinny is not working out! He either needs help or to be replaced. But not supporting the team is ridiculous.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:34 pm
by HailSkins94
I would like to trade Die Skins Die for $2.50 a jawbreaker after that comment.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:35 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
HailSkins94 wrote:I would like to trade Die Skins Die for $2.50 a jawbreaker after that comment.

I think we're going to have to offer someone more than $2.50 and a jawbreaker to take DCD. Though his entertainment value went up after what was certainly the worst analogy I have ever heard. Supporting your team for being out of the playoffs for one year is like a wife staying with her abusive husband. Wow. :roll:

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:37 pm
by roybus14
It's frustration setting in which is understandable given the amount of money that has been spent on players and coaches, the rise in the costs to go to a game to support this team, and the failure of the one man that bought us glory, Joe Gibbs.

This whole thing stinks and the only really way to get out of this is for those guys in charge to really take a hard look at themselves and what they are doing. I think that the players already know that they can do better but it's up to those in charge of leading them to get their act's together.

It all starts at the top really with Dan Snyder telling Joe Gibbs that he needs to hire a qualified GM and give that person control. Then trim some of the fat off of the coaching staff and make those earning those fat checks earn them by coaching the talent that we do have. Also, enpower that GM to slap the arrogance out of GW and his staff's mouth's and make them realize that even the best "schemes" don't make a defense, coaching does. These players still need motivation and teaching, so "Git R Done". The next GM move is to tell Joe Gibbs to either "piss or git off da pot." Either you let Al Saunders run this offense completely or we get rid of him, period..... No more of this "no it's my offense, no it's mine" or Al calls the plays until we get to the opponents 30 yard line and then it's a committee crap. One voice leading this offense period...

Get back to developing from within, stop over-paying guys that have not proved themselves in "your system" or that does not have a proven track record of success even after getting the money from another team, and making irrational decisions overall. This thing doesn't have to be blown up but I think that Snyder needs to talk some sense into Gibbs and smack the hell out of GW. It can be fixed by getting back to the basics. We have enough talent on this team now, to win but those in charge have to get on the same exact page about everything and start doing their jobs.....

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:39 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
roybus14 wrote:It's frustration setting in which is understandable given the amount of money that has been spent on players and coaches, the rise in the costs to go to a game to support this team, and the failure of the one man that bought us glory, Joe Gibbs.

This whole thing stinks and the only really way to get out of this is for those guys in charge to really take a hard look at themselves and what they are doing. I think that the players already know that they can do better but it's up to those in charge of leading them to get their act's together.

It all starts at the top really with Dan Snyder telling Joe Gibbs that he needs to hire a qualified GM and give that person control. Then trim some of the fat off of the coaching staff and make those earning those fat checks earn them by coaching the talent that we do have. Also, enpower that GM to slap the arrogance out of GW and his staff's mouth's and make them realize that even the best "schemes" don't make a defense, coaching does. These players still need motivation and teaching, so "Git R Done". The next GM move is to tell Joe Gibbs to either "piss or git off da pot." Either you let Al Saunders run this offense completely or we get rid of him, period..... No more of this "no it's my offense, no it's mine" or Al calls the plays until we get to the opponents 30 yard line and then it's a committee crap. One voice leading this offense period...

Get back to developing from within, stop over-paying guys that have not proved themselves in "your system" or that does not have a proven track record of success even after getting the money from another team, and making irrational decisions overall. This thing doesn't have to be blown up but I think that Snyder needs to talk some sense into Gibbs and smack the hell out of GW. It can be fixed by getting back to the basics. We have enough talent on this team now, to win but those in charge have to get on the same exact page about everything and start doing their jobs.....

Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:02 pm
by TincoSkin
all this doom and gloom!! man on man..

since gibbs has been back he has..

created a core group of skins, portis, moss, cooley, taylor, washington, etc etc etc.

he has made it to the playoffs

he has brought in new talent and offensive leadership that had a tough season meshing with the core guys.


now that the upgraded team has had a characterbuilding season with the core guys, we are due to be a playoff contender again next season.

DCD is fickle and lacks forsight.

when we are in the nfc championship next season he'll be saying danny is the king for bring gibbs back and getting ARE and Lloyd.

i mean have you seen ARE and JC clicking!! their great together. cant wait till we have the best O next year!!

skins to the grave, gibbs for life.

Hail.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:05 pm
by roybus14
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:It's frustration setting in which is understandable given the amount of money that has been spent on players and coaches, the rise in the costs to go to a game to support this team, and the failure of the one man that bought us glory, Joe Gibbs.

This whole thing stinks and the only really way to get out of this is for those guys in charge to really take a hard look at themselves and what they are doing. I think that the players already know that they can do better but it's up to those in charge of leading them to get their act's together.

It all starts at the top really with Dan Snyder telling Joe Gibbs that he needs to hire a qualified GM and give that person control. Then trim some of the fat off of the coaching staff and make those earning those fat checks earn them by coaching the talent that we do have. Also, enpower that GM to slap the arrogance out of GW and his staff's mouth's and make them realize that even the best "schemes" don't make a defense, coaching does. These players still need motivation and teaching, so "Git R Done". The next GM move is to tell Joe Gibbs to either "piss or git off da pot." Either you let Al Saunders run this offense completely or we get rid of him, period..... No more of this "no it's my offense, no it's mine" or Al calls the plays until we get to the opponents 30 yard line and then it's a committee crap. One voice leading this offense period...

Get back to developing from within, stop over-paying guys that have not proved themselves in "your system" or that does not have a proven track record of success even after getting the money from another team, and making irrational decisions overall. This thing doesn't have to be blown up but I think that Snyder needs to talk some sense into Gibbs and smack the hell out of GW. It can be fixed by getting back to the basics. We have enough talent on this team now, to win but those in charge have to get on the same exact page about everything and start doing their jobs.....

Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


Um, yeah but look at how far this playoff team, especially the defense has fallen......SPLAT!!!!

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:56 pm
by RedskinsFreak
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.

Getting to the playoffs does not validate how this organization does things. It's an anomaly in a galaxy of bumbling, inconsistency and underachievement.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:01 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
roybus14 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:It's frustration setting in which is understandable given the amount of money that has been spent on players and coaches, the rise in the costs to go to a game to support this team, and the failure of the one man that bought us glory, Joe Gibbs.

This whole thing stinks and the only really way to get out of this is for those guys in charge to really take a hard look at themselves and what they are doing. I think that the players already know that they can do better but it's up to those in charge of leading them to get their act's together.

It all starts at the top really with Dan Snyder telling Joe Gibbs that he needs to hire a qualified GM and give that person control. Then trim some of the fat off of the coaching staff and make those earning those fat checks earn them by coaching the talent that we do have. Also, enpower that GM to slap the arrogance out of GW and his staff's mouth's and make them realize that even the best "schemes" don't make a defense, coaching does. These players still need motivation and teaching, so "Git R Done". The next GM move is to tell Joe Gibbs to either "piss or git off da pot." Either you let Al Saunders run this offense completely or we get rid of him, period..... No more of this "no it's my offense, no it's mine" or Al calls the plays until we get to the opponents 30 yard line and then it's a committee crap. One voice leading this offense period...

Get back to developing from within, stop over-paying guys that have not proved themselves in "your system" or that does not have a proven track record of success even after getting the money from another team, and making irrational decisions overall. This thing doesn't have to be blown up but I think that Snyder needs to talk some sense into Gibbs and smack the hell out of GW. It can be fixed by getting back to the basics. We have enough talent on this team now, to win but those in charge have to get on the same exact page about everything and start doing their jobs.....

Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


Um, yeah but look at how far this playoff team, especially the defense has fallen......SPLAT!!!!

Certainly it was a bad year, but between Gibbs and Gibbs over 11 years we had 1 playoff appearance and won one game.

In 3 years under Gibbs we have matched that with the same, and now Snyder needs to "talk sense into Gibbs" and Gibbs needs to "smack the hell out of GW."

Our friend has lost his mind. He knows all about how to run this team and how to fix it so the Skins can "get their act together."

If Snyder did as proposed, Gibbs would tell him where to stick the job and we would be back to the days of Norv Turner, Steve Spurrier and company. Yeah, I want that.

It seems to me we have a lot more hope then the majority of teams with an O that looks like it's coming around and a guy with 2 out of 3 top 10 Ds to address our bad D year and I don't think smacking the hell out of him is a productive move there either, to put it nicely.

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:23 pm
by roybus14
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
roybus14 wrote:It's frustration setting in which is understandable given the amount of money that has been spent on players and coaches, the rise in the costs to go to a game to support this team, and the failure of the one man that bought us glory, Joe Gibbs.

This whole thing stinks and the only really way to get out of this is for those guys in charge to really take a hard look at themselves and what they are doing. I think that the players already know that they can do better but it's up to those in charge of leading them to get their act's together.

It all starts at the top really with Dan Snyder telling Joe Gibbs that he needs to hire a qualified GM and give that person control. Then trim some of the fat off of the coaching staff and make those earning those fat checks earn them by coaching the talent that we do have. Also, enpower that GM to slap the arrogance out of GW and his staff's mouth's and make them realize that even the best "schemes" don't make a defense, coaching does. These players still need motivation and teaching, so "Git R Done". The next GM move is to tell Joe Gibbs to either "piss or git off da pot." Either you let Al Saunders run this offense completely or we get rid of him, period..... No more of this "no it's my offense, no it's mine" or Al calls the plays until we get to the opponents 30 yard line and then it's a committee crap. One voice leading this offense period...

Get back to developing from within, stop over-paying guys that have not proved themselves in "your system" or that does not have a proven track record of success even after getting the money from another team, and making irrational decisions overall. This thing doesn't have to be blown up but I think that Snyder needs to talk some sense into Gibbs and smack the hell out of GW. It can be fixed by getting back to the basics. We have enough talent on this team now, to win but those in charge have to get on the same exact page about everything and start doing their jobs.....

Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


Um, yeah but look at how far this playoff team, especially the defense has fallen......SPLAT!!!!

Certainly it was a bad year, but between Gibbs and Gibbs over 11 years we had 1 playoff appearance and won one game.

In 3 years under Gibbs we have matched that with the same, and now Snyder needs to "talk sense into Gibbs" and Gibbs needs to "smack the hell out of GW."

Our friend has lost his mind. He knows all about how to run this team and how to fix it so the Skins can "get their act together."

If Snyder did as proposed, Gibbs would tell him where to stick the job and we would be back to the days of Norv Turner, Steve Spurrier and company. Yeah, I want that.

It seems to me we have a lot more hope then the majority of teams with an O that looks like it's coming around and a guy with 2 out of 3 top 10 Ds to address our bad D year and I don't think smacking the hell out of him is a productive move there either, to put it nicely.


I am not a professional football guy, like alot of us on this board. Just a fan with an opinion. As far Snyder talking to Gibbs and Gibbs telling him to shove it, look at this season. It certainly reminds alot of folks of Norv and company doesn't it. 5-11; poor clock management; in-decisive play calling; lax-azz training camp; bad personnel moves; should I keep going???

As bad as Norv, Spurrier and the others were, it is shame-ful that a HOF Coach with three rings often times looked dumber then they were during this season. Folks need to realize that Joe Gibbs is human and he has made a lot and I mean alot of mistakes this season. Yes, he bought us 3 Super Bowls but that was a long time ago and this league and it's players, the rules, and the way the game is played and teams are management have changed since he left. Just open your eyes and look at this past season.

As much as I think that this area's media are a bunch of puzzies, afraid to ask Joe Gibbs the "hard" questions, there is some truth to some of the stuff they have written about this team this season. Ask around the league: if this coach was not Joe Gibbs, would he been fired today? And I am willing to bet that the majority of those asked, would say yes.

We can throw our opinions on this team and it's HOF Coach all day. Some for and some against, but the bottomline is that this team regressed, has been mismanaged and it's record is 5-11 under this HOF Coach.....

Re: there is no hope

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:52 am
by HEROHAMO
die cowboys die wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101079.html

things won't change until snyder feels a financial impact.
they won't change until gibbs looks up into the stands and sees them empty, because no one is bothering to waste their time and money going out to watch an incompetent, laughingstock organization show off their hapless product.

everybody, this is extremely important:

STOP GIVING THEM MONEY.

DO NOT BUY ANY REDSKINS MERCHANDISE.

DO NOT PAY GOOD MONEY TO GO TO GAMES.


let the stadium start looking like most cardinals games have in recent past-- almost completely empty... that is exactly what the redskins deserve, because we are now officially the cardinals, and it is never going to get any better until ENORMOUS changes are made in the structure of the organization.

we are the cardinals.
you wouldn't spend your money on the cardinals, would you?

send the message.
cut them off.
This is in no way ever going to happen. But What we can do is start booing at the games. Keep booing till they win.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:47 am
by Chris Luva Luva
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


(devils advocate)So an appearance in the playoffs once every decade is acceptable. :twisted:

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:08 am
by KazooSkinsFan
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


(devils advocate)So an appearance in the playoffs once every decade is acceptable. :twisted:

I said under "et al" we went to the playoffs once in 11 years and won one game. Under Gibbs 2.0 we have matched that in only 3. He made the playoffs in his second year. He missed it in his third. But at least we have a lot of close games late against decent teams, thumped NO, and the O is turning around. GW had 2 top 10 Ds in 3 years, how is hope lost on D from one bad year?

I was addressing that severe overreaction.

BTW, I said he went once in 3 years and you said I was OK with once a decade, three years is a decade?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:30 am
by Chris Luva Luva
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


(devils advocate)So an appearance in the playoffs once every decade is acceptable. :twisted:

I said under "et al" we went to the playoffs once in 11 years and won one game. Under Gibbs 2.0 we have matched that in only 3. He made the playoffs in his second year. He missed it in his third. But at least we have a lot of close games late against decent teams, thumped NO, and the O is turning around. GW had 2 top 10 Ds in 3 years, how is hope lost on D from one bad year?

I was addressing that severe overreaction.

BTW, I said he went once in 3 years and you said I was OK with once a decade, three years is a decade?


Where did I say you said that? I was just asking a question and did so jokingly. I guess I didnt add enough emoticons.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:39 am
by KazooSkinsFan
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Um...we went to the playoffs last year. It has been one year. One.


(devils advocate)So an appearance in the playoffs once every decade is acceptable. :twisted:

I said under "et al" we went to the playoffs once in 11 years and won one game. Under Gibbs 2.0 we have matched that in only 3. He made the playoffs in his second year. He missed it in his third. But at least we have a lot of close games late against decent teams, thumped NO, and the O is turning around. GW had 2 top 10 Ds in 3 years, how is hope lost on D from one bad year?

I was addressing that severe overreaction.

BTW, I said he went once in 3 years and you said I was OK with once a decade, three years is a decade?


Where did I say you said that? I was just asking a question and did so jokingly. I guess I didnt add enough emoticons.


You quoted me and said "So an appearance in the playoffs once every decade is acceptable?" I was just scratching my head since I was defending Gibbs over 3 years and didn't understand your post asking me if once a decade was OK.

I assume the tude with the emoticons comment is about my arguing with Skins bashers? You weren't bashing the Skins and I didn't bash you, I just didn't see how your comment made sense with your choice of my quote whether there were emoticons or not. Sorry I asked.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:37 pm
by SkinzCanes
how is hope lost on D from one bad year?


Because the talent level on the defense is lacking and there are a lot of wholes that need to be filled. Even a team leader like Spring came out and said that the talent level on D needs to be upgraded. We don't have a lot of draft picks (as usual) and it's a pretty weak free agent class so where are we going to get the players that we need to improve the unit? Other than Taylor and Marcus, I don't really have much confidence in any other player on defense, either because of health risks, lack of talent, or uncertainty as to their ability because of lack of playing time. Not only do we need to add at least 3 or 4 new starters, but we need to find depth somewhere also.l

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:44 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
SkinzCanes wrote:
how is hope lost on D from one bad year?


Because the talent level on the defense is lacking and there are a lot of wholes that need to be filled. Even a team leader like Spring came out and said that the talent level on D needs to be upgraded. We don't have a lot of draft picks (as usual) and it's a pretty weak free agent class so where are we going to get the players that we need to improve the unit? Other than Taylor and Marcus, I don't really have much confidence in any other player on defense, either because of health risks, lack of talent, or uncertainty as to their ability because of lack of playing time. Not only do we need to add at least 3 or 4 new starters, but we need to find depth somewhere also.l

In the end, I trust the GW track record more than the Wasthington Post talking points. Let's see next year instead of arguing it now. If we are as bad next year as this, then I will be questioning GW's job. I am sure if we are as bad next year as this HE will be questioning his job. But after two top ten D's, not after one year despite a bunch of half informed Post reporters and those who parrot their points.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:12 pm
by 1niksder
More Fuel for the Fire

Coordinator Assumes Old Defensive Crouch

Some Blame Arrogance for Redskins' Struggles. For Williams, It's a Familiar Battle of Perception.

By Les Carpenter
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 3, 2007; Page E01

As a young man growing up in the Kansas City suburb of Excelsior Springs, Mo., he was always the most important athlete -- the quarterback, the pitcher, the point guard. This mattered to Gregg Williams because each role came with prestige, a trust in his leadership that was implicit even if those outside the game never understood the subtleties of his charge.

And yet these were the ones he worried about, the ones who saw him hanging around the locker room every day, sized him up in his cleats and dismissed him with the phrase he hated most.

"Dumb jock."

The Washington Redskins' assistant head coach for defense, the man who holds the option of being the next head coach when Joe Gibbs leaves, carries the scar left from those two words. He refers to it as "a chip on my shoulder." He says this one night last week as he sits in his corner office at Redskins Park with the blinds pulled down, surrounded by tidy shelves of binders and notebooks. His desktop is impeccable, scrubbed gleaming clean with prim piles of books and papers. If a machine playing game tapes didn't sit on a shelf behind him, you might think he doesn't even use this desk.

But Williams is organized. He keeps background on every assistant coach in the league, tucking the information into blue folders that hang without moving in his desk drawer. He keeps these, he says, in case he "ever gets stupid" and wants to be a head coach again in the NFL, as he was for three seasons in Buffalo. Not that he does. No way, not now, he says in his clipped western Missouri accent, in which words such as "you" come out as "ya." He is here for Gibbs because he wants to be around Gibbs, because he sees Gibbs as the best person at pulling men together that he has ever known. He wants to learn from this.

He has a goal: to learn something from every practice he ever coaches. He signs his signature large and neat because he once saw Jim Kelly, the Bills quarterback, do the same thing and asked why. Kelly told him, "If you can't read the name, does that mean the person isn't proud of who they are?"

Williams is proud of who he is, of the defenses he has made, of the awards he has won that he chooses not to display in his office -- a fact he makes a point of noting. He talks confidently about the speaking engagements he does all over the country, talking about leadership, authority, teamwork -- basically anything the organizers request.

He doesn't want any of this publicly known because he knows it will probably be misconstrued and add to a growing legacy of a coach too smug, too elitist, who thinks he is three steps ahead of everybody else. But he eventually relents because he isn't some rock-headed lug from Excelsior Springs. He doesn't have to be a football coach, you know. And in some way he wants people to understand that, too.

Maybe it wouldn't have been an issue had the Redskins defense he maneuvered, twisted and cajoled into the No. 3 overall ranking in 2004 and No. 9 last year not tumbled to 31st this season -- signaling an alarming trend for a man known for his defensive genius: As the team has added players he's chosen, its performance has deteriorated. Another time, this season might have been written off as simply bad luck, a shrug at injuries at key positions or an admission that the Cover-2 defense he and others have used successfully in recent seasons might be cycling into ineffectiveness.

But a story appeared on ESPN.com in November quoting an anonymous player, believed by many in the Redskins organization to be safety Adam Archuleta -- a player Williams desired in free agency -- attacking Williams for being arrogant and accusing him of destroying a good defense to satisfy his own ego. Essentially it said the kid from Excelsior Springs who never wanted to be the dumb jock had become too smart for his own good.

How Much Blame?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The story was widely read around the league. Williams said he was flooded with text messages from players so vehement in their support that he joked they were putting together "hit squads and assassination squads."

The piece seemed to wound him. More importantly, it led many in the NFL to wonder: How much of this Redskins season might actually be his fault?

"Gregg can be stubborn," said an NFL assistant who asked not to be identified because he considers Williams a friend and admires his coaching. "He believes he's the one who will make guys do things they haven't done before. He will say, 'Adam Archuleta might not be able to play in pass coverage, but he will for me,' or, 'LaVar Arrington can't do these things, but he will do them for me.' "

One of Williams's great strengths has been his ability to take the base "46" defense of his first NFL mentor, Buddy Ryan, and adapt it to whatever situation arises. For instance, when he was the Tennessee Titans' defensive coordinator in 1999, the season they went to the Super Bowl, his teams used lots of man-to-man coverage on pass plays. The next year, with a defense less suited to such coverages, he used almost no man-to-man. The Titans wound up with the top-ranked pass defense in the NFL that season.

Three years ago, when he joined the Redskins, he was able to take a pieced-together secondary, maximize a gem in undrafted linebacker Antonio Pierce and put together one of the best defenses in the NFL. "I'll give Williams his credit. A lot of us were surprised by what he got out of them, but there is not a lot of talent there," said one general manager who did not want to be quoted by name because he was speaking about another team. "They kind of did it with smoke and mirrors."

But Pierce became a free agent two years ago and left for the New York Giants in part, some around the team believe, because Williams thought he was expendable. One coach with knowledge of the situation who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution said he doesn't believe Williams told Redskins owner Daniel Snyder that Pierce was irreplaceable. Had he done so, the coach said, Snyder probably would have matched the Giants' offer.

"That one's on Gregg. He got what he wanted," the coach said.

Williams maintains that he stays out of his players' financial affairs. He says he wants to know nothing about contracts and goes out of his way to not pay attention to the numbers. He thinks if he knows much about the contracts, his judgment as a coach might be affected. His job is to teach, he says, not worry about salaries.

Still, the coach said that Williams did not mind letting Arrington, a linebacker, leave via free agency along with cornerback Walt Harris and safeties Ryan Clark and Omar Stoutmire. The loss of Harris and Clark especially became problematic when Shawn Springs, the team's only true cover cornerback, was injured and couldn't play the season's first five weeks, leaving the team to use players such as Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph.

The moves failed miserably. Harris, now in San Francisco, tied for third in the league in interceptions this year with eight. Wright had one interception, while Rumph played in seven games and was released last week. Gone, too, was the buffer Clark provided for the moody but gifted safety Sean Taylor, who has not responded well to his friend's departure. At one point during the season, several Redskins players called Clark, now in Pittsburgh, to see if he had any advice on how to reach Taylor.

Worse were the players Williams wanted in free agency: Archuleta and defensive end Andre Carter. Both were big-name players whose shortcomings had become more pronounced in recent seasons.

Archuleta was so bad a fit he was yanked from the starting squad in the middle of drills one day in November. Troy Vincent trotted out to replace him and Archuleta barely saw the field in ensuing weeks. And nobody has ever told him why, he said.

Williams said he had as much say as the rest of the people in the organization over which players the Redskins signed, meaning when a transaction happened it was because everybody agreed it was the right thing to do, not just him. But the perception among many personnel people in the NFL is that Williams was allowed to pick his defensive players and then implored Gibbs to force Vinny Cerrato, the team's vice president of football operations, to get those players.

Either way, there was a sense in the locker room as this season started the Redskins no longer had the players on defense to keep up. "I think we need to upgrade the talent -- a lot," Springs said.

The Other Side of the Ball



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When the Redskins hired Al Saunders to run their offense last winter, one NFL assistant said Williams was troubled by the move, not from any dislike for Saunders but because he worried that Saunders's frenetic offense, which often produced touchdowns quickly, would put pressure on Williams's defense. With the pace of the game accelerated, the defense would naturally give up more yards and points and its ranking would suffer.

"I can't do this," the assistant said Williams told him. The assistant asked that he not be identified by name because he considers both men to be friends.

When asked about this, Williams said he has a high regard for Saunders going back to Super Bowl XXXIV, when Saunders's Rams beat Williams's Titans. In fact, Williams is convinced he's the reason Saunders is with the Redskins, having gone through his file on the coach while he himself was on several lists for head coaching openings last January. He decided if he were to be offered a job, Saunders would be his first choice for offensive coordinator, a fact he said he mentioned to Gibbs one day.

A few days later, Gibbs walked into Williams's office and said he had hired Saunders, shocking Williams, who never knew the Redskins were courting him.

"I hired him because of what you told me about him," Williams remembered Gibbs telling him.

Williams smiled. "He's here because of me bragging on him to Coach" Gibbs, he said.

Either way, to outsiders, Saunders's offense has in fact affected the Redskins' defense -- a lot. Cowboys Coach Bill Parcells mentioned as much in a New York Times magazine article in the fall. While watching game tape of the Redskins, he noted how little regard Saunders seemed to have for his defensive coordinator. The NFL assistant who said Williams fretted about the hiring has watched the Redskins this season specifically to see how Williams would deal with the faster pace of the offense. He agreed with Parcells's assessment, adding that it was the biggest reason for Washington's defensive collapse.

The same league assistant who spoke of Williams's stubbornness has broken down the Redskins' game tapes and said defensive players weren't getting time to rest because Saunders's offense was not putting together sustained drives, as it did in 2005. Either Washington scored fast or the complex system stalled, pushing the offense off the field after three plays. Neither was conducive to defensive dominance, the assistant said.

"Scoring points in this league is great," the assistant said. "But sometimes you can score too quickly."

Williams did not want to discuss the subject, saying he would never criticize another coach publicly. "We have a responsibility to play our defense," he said.

He said he has other beliefs as to why the Redskins' defense didn't work this year. Twice in a 1 1/2 -hour talk, he pointed out that the other teams in the NFC East made big offseason acquisitions that helped their teams become more explosive. And because his team has to face those defenses twice a year, the challenge was greater. The statistics support this, as Philadelphia and Dallas are among the top five offenses in the NFL.

In fact, seven of Washington's games this year were against the top six offensive teams in the NFL.


"The trend is more offensive production in the league," Williams said.

'They Wanted Me to Be Hard'



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Not long after he was named the head coach of the Buffalo Bills in 2001, Williams was told what his mandate would be: The team's administration wanted a disciplinarian who would be tough on players. He already had a reputation for being a taskmaster with the Titans, but in the new job he was supposed to be extra brutal. "They wanted me to be hard," he recalled.

Williams took to the challenge with gusto. He barked out orders, swore profusely, laid out a list of rules and had everyone awakened at training camp to the blasts of a bullhorn. He made everyone run laps when somebody made a mistake. He snapped that star linebacker Sam Cowart should move from the outside to the inside without complaint because that's what he -- the coach -- wanted him to do. All of it was designed to make him the tough guy.

"Gregg did everything that was asked of him. He was a team player," said Tom Donahoe, who was the Bills' president at the time and hired Williams.

On the field, Williams managed to take a 3-13 team his first year to within a win of the playoffs the next season when it finished 8-8. But he also gained a reputation as being arrogant and removed. "He was not like that in Tennessee," said a league general manager who requested anonymity because he and Williams have friends in common. "A lot of people said he changed in Buffalo. He thought he was all that."

But things also happened in Buffalo, things that happen to a lot of head coaches but nonetheless seem to rattle Williams to this day. Like the time right after he finally moved his family from Nashville a few months after taking the job. They had been in their home for two days when neighbors invited them to a party. Thinking it was the right thing to do, they went. Almost instantly, he recalled, he was besieged by fans who kept him pinned in a corner, burying the new coach of the Bills with questions. To demonstrate this, he got up from his desk at Redskins Park and thrust himself in the corner of his office between the refrigerator and a bookshelf.

In his hand, he said, he held a can of beer from which he insisted he took no more than about two sips. He stayed for close to three hours, never leaving the corner. Nonetheless, two days later on sports radio, he said, it was reported that he was drunk, embarrassed himself, got into a fight with his wife and fell into a nearby pond.

It is clear the wound has not healed, even after nearly six years. He had been open, tried to show himself to people and felt burned by the experience. In a way, he went into a public shell and remained there until he was fired after the 2003 season.

"I'm not [exaggerating] on this story," he said. "If you talk about an edge to me or an arrogance to me, well, I do get my feelings hurt and I do have a sensitive side to me that I protect with an edge.

"Now that's on the air."

His face clouded and he leaned forward in his chair. "That story and the ESPN story had a lot of similarities," he said. "And yet I don't know, I don't know the truth of what is said [in the ESPN piece]. I know there is a motive. I know there's an agenda."

Then he snapped back in his chair with a stoic jerk of his head.


"I give it no credence," he said.

'That Underdog Approach'



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The irony about Williams's perceived arrogance is that many players actually love his posture. There is something in his bravado that touches the insecurities they have about their own careers. At any moment, an offensive tackle could roll over on a defensive player's leg, ending football forever. Players often view themselves as mercenaries, throwing their bodies carelessly across the field in a blind pursuit of winning until something either breaks or their damaged joints won't allow them to leap anymore.

Williams's hollering inspires them. If he walks into a meeting room, freshly pressed, with neat creases in his shirt and pants and promises them that he has a game plan that is guaranteed to bamboozle Sunday's opponent, they're all for it.

"I like that underdog approach," Springs said. "Gregg is a little 'we're going to get after them' in his approach. I like that."

"Gregg Williams is a very tough, very verbal coach. When I was there, I respected him a lot," said Pierce, now with the Giants. "He may be killing his players in practice, but he was the first guy patting you on the back after you've made a big play."

When asked why some players might seem to be turned off by Williams's approach, Bengals defensive tackle Sam Adams -- who played for Williams in Buffalo -- scoffed.

"Probably because they're soft," he said. "He's an aggressive, hard-charger. He's going to dog you as he sees fit. Some cats can't handle that."

Or as Falcons safety Lawyer Milloy, who also played for Williams with the Bills, said: "Guys don't need him to bring a pacifier to the game. This is a man's league."

Hearing these comments seemed to please Williams. He said that Ryan, his mentor, taught him to always be aggressive, to coach with a sneer. "You know what? They're going to look at your attitude and if you don't have an attitude, they won't have an attitude," he remembered Ryan telling him.

He said his friendship with Pierce is so close he's surprised no one has accused him of tampering because they speak on the phone so often. "Over half the teams around the league have players who have called me about getting back with us and miss the opportunity to be coached the way we coach," Williams said at another point.

He does not like to talk about jobs other than the one he has, and repeatedly professes his desire to keep working for Gibbs. Asked about why things didn't work in Buffalo, where Williams was fired after going 6-10 in his third season, the man who hired and fired him, Donahoe, said there were mitigating circumstances, namely more than $20 million in unusable salary cap space because of dead contracts that were still being paid out.

"He gets a mulligan for Buffalo," Donahoe said.

Last winter, with several head coaching jobs open around the league, Donahoe said he received five calls from teams that had Williams among their top two or three candidates. Donahoe figured a few more might phone again this winter. This season's Redskins defense won't change that, he said. Several other general managers agreed.

"One year can't make a difference," said Kansas City Chiefs President Carl Peterson, who thinks Williams will be a head coach again. "Sometimes it's all image."

In his office, Williams looked at a notepad on which he had neatly jotted down ideas for this interview. He shook his head.

"How about this?" he asked. "What was perceived as discipline, intensity, pettiness, structure, attitude." He spit these words out. "All of a sudden, now that's the reason why our rankings are bad. You can't go from being right to wrong. You can't. You don't go from being a good coach to not knowing anything. So that's just part of the business. I understand that. I totally understand that."

And he sat there with the blinds pulled down, another evening growing late in the season when everything went wrong. The coach accustomed to having everything figured out had no answers.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:28 pm
by UK Skins Fan
Interesting, and yet inconclusive.

Personally, I think there's been a whole lot of crud spoken and written about Williams this season, and I have no problem believing that our D will be back in the top half of the NFL next year.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:18 pm
by RedskinsFreak
Of the three they've run so far, this was the least persuasive.

He still needs a dose of "good players make good systems"

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:51 pm
by KazooSkinsFan
RedskinsFreak wrote:Of the three they've run so far, this was the least persuasive.

He still needs a dose of "good players make good systems"

I don't think we're going to ever hear the end of that intelligence challenged charge Williams thinks his system can be run by anyone that absolutely no NFL coach believes. Of course he never said that nonsense statement and his detractors ignore inconvenient facts like that we signed two players for $60 million at his request showing how basless it is, and that one year ago he was the leader of a D dominated team with two consecutive top ten Ds and we just hoped the O could score a few points for a change this year.

Now one bad year, and it's he thinks it's not his players because the Post says so. The problem is for him to come out and say he doesn't believe that absurd charge makes him sound even more idiotic for denying obvious nonsense and the bashers will just use it as fodder to say he's not facing reality (reality being more their problem then his).

Next year when the D does well, all the mindless repeaters of that baseless claim will just fade into the wordwork anyway and "forget" they said it.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:12 pm
by SkinzCanes
I don't think we're going to ever hear the end of that intelligence challenged charge Williams thinks his system can be run by anyone that absolutely no NFL coach believes. Of course he never said that nonsense statement and his detractors ignore inconvenient facts like that we signed two players for $60 million at his request showing how basless it is, and that one year ago he was the leader of a D dominated team with two consecutive top ten Ds and we just hoped the O could score a few points for a change this year.

Now one bad year, and it's he thinks it's not his players because the Post says so. The problem is for him to come out and say he doesn't believe that absurd charge makes him sound even more idiotic for denying obvious nonsense and the bashers will just use it as fodder to say he's not facing reality (reality being more their problem then his).

Next year when the D does well, all the mindless repeaters of that baseless claim will just fade into the wordwork anyway and "forget" they said it.


That's all well and good. But he let his starting middle linebacker go thinking that an undersized Marshall, who was a safety in college and had never played mlb before could step in and replace Pierce. He also thought that guys like Wright and Rumph could play in his system (wrong). He has let Holdman start in his system for 2 years in a row, thinking that he could get the job done. He let Clark go thinking that Prioleu could fill in and that AA could play a roll that still isn't clear to anybody.

Now that his system has struggled this season we are hearing that teams have figured out a way to beat the Cover 2 and that GW is going to tweak his system in the offseason. Well that's total crap and just an excuse for poor coaching and poor talent. The Cover 2 is the same defense that we heard Gibbs, Brunell, etc. blame for our inability to successfully pass the ball earlier in the season. So apparently our D can't run the Cover 2 well anymore because offenses have figured it out yet our offense couldn't throw the ball deep earlier in the season because of the mystical qualities of the Cover 2.

I'm not disputing GW's abilities as an x's and o's guy, but somehow under the watch of him and his staff this defense forgot how to tackle and talented guys like Griffin, Taylor, and Washington all regressed from last season to this season. Rogers hasn't been developed. Rocky wasn't given a chance until it was far too late. Maybe if he spent more time actually coaching the players and making sure that they are fundamentally sound, instead of worrying so much about his system, his defense wouldn't have set a record for fewest turnovers in a season or finished 31st in the NFL.

I also don't think that it's a coincidence that the same types of problems, within a similar time frame, are happening to GW here as happened to him in Buffalo. Gibbs needs to take more control over the defense and GW needs to be given less power in personnel decisions. Since he started here he has stunk at making personnel choices and I don't think that that is going to change all of a sudden.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:01 am
by roybus14
SkinzCanes wrote:Now that his system has struggled this season we are hearing that teams have figured out a way to beat the Cover 2 and that GW is going to tweak his system in the offseason. Well that's total crap and just an excuse for poor coaching and poor talent. The Cover 2 is the same defense that we heard Gibbs, Brunell, etc. blame for our inability to successfully pass the ball earlier in the season. So apparently our D can't run the Cover 2 well anymore because offenses have figured it out yet our offense couldn't throw the ball deep earlier in the season because of the mystical qualities of the Cover 2.

I'm not disputing GW's abilities as an x's and o's guy, but somehow under the watch of him and his staff this defense forgot how to tackle and talented guys like Griffin, Taylor, and Washington all regressed from last season to this season. Rogers hasn't been developed. Rocky wasn't given a chance until it was far too late. Maybe if he spent more time actually coaching the players and making sure that they are fundamentally sound, instead of worrying so much about his system, his defense wouldn't have set a record for fewest turnovers in a season or finished 31st in the NFL.


Finally, someone has said it.... It's the coaching.... You can't go from 3 to 9 to 31st with players on the defense that was ranked 3rd and 9th missing tackles, being out of position, not executing the fundamentals without it being the coaching. The 'scheme' is the 'scheme' but you still have to coach and preach the fundamentals to these guys. Only the "great ones" don't really need coaching because they do that stuff instinctively, that's what makes them "great." But we don't have that in these players so they still need to coached, pushed and taught....

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:42 am
by KazooSkinsFan
Nice, dump me with an avalanche of one sided points. I'm going to step up to it, my friend.

SkinzCanes wrote:That's all well and good. But he let his starting middle linebacker go

Saying no one guy is irreplacable is not saying players don't matter. So this isn't the debate.

SkinzCanes wrote: thinking that an undersized Marshall, who was a safety in college and had never played mlb before could step in and replace Pierce.

Pierce got a mega contract in a cap challenged year. Marshall is cheaper. No one said he thought Marshall was Pierce. You are ignoring the cap and taking the easy point of apples to apples comparison of two guys who are apples and oranges to the cap.

SkinzCanes wrote:He also thought that guys like Wright and Rumph could play in his system (wrong).

Wright has been playing more then planned because of the injury to Springs. Again under the cap, you can't sign starters to back up starters. Wright has been fine for the more limited role he was to play. Rumph was a freeby, we swapped him late for Taylor who would have been cut or sat at the end of the bench again anyway, so he's a non-point.

SkinzCanes wrote:He has let Holdman start in his system for 2 years in a row, thinking that he could get the job done.

Actually, we used our top pick on a replacement? It was in the news. And again, you ignore cap in the short term. We can't just go sign everyone we want all the time, especially with his replacement on the roster and just not ready.

SkinzCanes wrote:He let Clark go thinking that Prioleu could fill in

Actually again you're missing information. We negotiated a YEAR with Clark and tried to keep him. He left for more money, not because we wanted to let him go. And now he might be cut because Pittsburgh can't figure out the difference between playing him and his backup and a rookie indicating they did in fact overpay, and we would be had we paid that.

SkinzCanes wrote: and that AA could play a roll that still isn't clear to anybody.

You can't speak for everyone. Or anyone but yourself. See 1niksder's posts on AA, he's the guru on what went wrong there. I believe I'm correct in summarizing his point as he doesn't defend AA, just that he was signed to pass rush and run defend, but we was never used him for what we signed him for and he's reserving judgement on him until when or if we do.

SkinzCanes wrote:Now that his system has struggled this season we are hearing that teams have figured out a way to beat the Cover 2 and that GW is going to tweak his system in the offseason.

Actually according to the article we both apparently read the issue is teams learned the weakness in cover 2 is deep down the middle. That applies to ALL teams playing the cover 2, not just us. And he actually said he was trying to tweek now and would do EXTENSIVE review and update of his schemes in the offseason.

SkinzCanes wrote:Well that's total crap and just an excuse for poor coaching and poor talent. The Cover 2 is the same defense that we heard Gibbs, Brunell, etc. blame for our inability to successfully pass the ball earlier in the season. So apparently our D can't run the Cover 2 well anymore because offenses have figured it out yet our offense couldn't throw the ball deep earlier in the season because of the mystical qualities of the Cover 2.

Now you're decending into rant and sarcasm. I hadn't heard our O blame anything on the cover 2 specifically, but I'll take your word for it and point out that since the weakness of the cover 2 is deep up the middle and Brunell couldn't throw accurately past the line of scrimmage....

And sarcasm aside, cover 2 was effective until O's solved it. That is the endless chess game in football. I dont' know what you're in a tizzy about.

SkinzCanes wrote:I'm not disputing GW's abilities as an x's and o's guy, but somehow under the watch of him and his staff this defense forgot how to tackle and talented guys like Griffin, Taylor, and Washington all regressed from last season to this season.

Baseless rant

SkinzCanes wrote:Rogers hasn't been developed.

Yes, Rogers is the first player in NFL history to have a good rookie year and struggle in his sophmore year. I believe GW actually tried to trip him from the sidelines a couple times and shine lights in his eyes to make him drop INTs.

SkinzCanes wrote:Rocky wasn't given a chance until it was far too late.

Assumes a 22 year old rookie with no NFL experience who played OK at the end of the year and seems to be a good solution in the future was ready to do the exact same at the beginning of the year without a year of practice or study to learn the D. So basically Rocky coming in prepared to you is a criticizm? My head spins.

SkinzCanes wrote:Maybe if he spent more time actually coaching the players and making sure that they are fundamentally sound, instead of worrying so much about his system, his defense wouldn't have set a record for fewest turnovers in a season or finished 31st in the NFL.

Absurd accusation for a guy with 2 top 10 Ds in 3 years in the ultra-competitive NFL. Turns out he's incompetent. I'll take your word for it (not).

SkinzCanes wrote:I also don't think that it's a coincidence that the same types of problems, within a similar time frame, are happening to GW here as happened to him in Buffalo. Gibbs needs to take more control over the defense and GW needs to be given less power in personnel decisions. Since he started here he has stunk at making personnel choices and I don't think that that is going to change all of a sudden.

That's why we signed him, he was a failure in Buffalo. It's harder to address these more ranting foundationless points at the end of your speel.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:08 pm
by SkinsJock
UK Skins Fan wrote:Interesting, and yet inconclusive.

Personally, I think there's been a whole lot of crud spoken and written about Williams this season, and I have no problem believing that our D will be back in the top half of the NFL next year.


Thanks UK, I agree, and, as usual, thanks for giving us the link 1niksder.
I also will say that I read it all but have to add that Gibbs knows football and football people and he wanted this guy - went and got him and basically set him up to be our next coach. I think this guy is going to be fine with our defense next year and in the future with our team. I think that all we need to do is have some things "work out" for us with both the players and the game planning and we will shortly thereafter be seeing the players and media talking about our next HC with a lot more positive attitude.



Interesting that he gave someone from that paper the time and the opportunity to write that though.