The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:26 pm**

Cappster wrote:The difference is Smoot seemed as though he wanted to leave anyway. So he would be the one that would have to eat crow. Clark didn't want to leave.

Fair enough. I'm not saying I agree with the whole argument based on this, but it's a good point. It doesn't make him worth what Pittsburgh paid him though, a move they apparently are re-thinking now too.

Cappster wrote:I remember hearing on the radio that someone in the FO wasn't going to pay much money for clark. Hence, someone in FO eating crow.

OK, but I just don't believe that would be a serious consideration preventing us from bringing him back. Particularly since it would certainly be for less then he left for.

Cappster wrote:I agree, as long as we get him for a reasonable price then I say sign him. I never said he was THAT great but he is a solid piece that we can benefit from. Gibbs is always looking for "quality" people and I believe that Clark is a quality person.

I just don't understand why Ryan Clark keeps coming up. I was glad we dumped LaVar but he was at least a major player worthy of debate. Ryan Clark was just a role player, but we have no where else to go with this. As you said, in the end we agree, if we get him back for the right price we both want him.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:31 pm**

JPM36 wrote:I assume that if we do acquire Clements, that means Shawn Springs is gone...

I can't stress this enough: trading a first round pick for Nate Clements would be a HORRIBLE move.

HORRIBLE!!!

I don't even have any problem with the guy. He's a fine player. But we need to use the draft to bring in some younger players. Doesn't anyone else notice this team has an absolutely glaring weakness at defensive tackle? I think the number one need this team has is a huge DT who can occupy 2 blockers on every play and free up everyone else to make plays. That would definitely make Andre Carter's life easier for one, and it would make it harder to just run up the middle on us.

My recommendation: DT Alan Branch, Michigan if he is on the board.

Trading the 1st round pick shouldn't even be discussed.

Clements is going to be a UFA, the first round pick discussion is dropped.

We would only keep Springs under that scenario I have to believe if he restrutured his contract. I would love personally for that to happen. He's done a great job for us, he is just having a hard time staying healthy for 16 games. Hopefully more next year. Being a nickle back could be win-win. Assuming he's willing to accept less than starter pay.

I'm a Michigan Alum and I'm totally with you on Branch, he's a stud!

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:38 pm**

I don't think we are going to trade a 1st round pick for him. First of all he is going to be released so it doesn't make sense to give a 1st rounder away. Also, these are jut rumors that were told on ESPN and it was a joke.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:41 pm**

Springs has to restructure. His injuries along with his age would almost require him to restructure so that he can stay on a team not to mention make his money.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:55 pm**

Unless you call battling for your job with a rookie and a guy who was supposed to be your backup because they are playing as well and make less money good, which is why he may be waived, then you are mistaken, yes.

Clark actually played very well for the Steelers before getting hurt. Prior to his injury there was no mention of hom being replaced. The rookie that played for him when he got injured, Anthony Smith, played mostly on special teams up until Clark's injury in week 12. When Clark got hurt the kid stepped in an played well. Clark reagrivated his injury this past weekend against Carolina so its unclear if he is going to play at all the rest of the season. Had Clark not gotten injured he would've been the starter the rest of the season.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:04 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:
Unless you call battling for your job with a rookie and a guy who was supposed to be your backup because they are playing as well and make less money good, which is why he may be waived, then you are mistaken, yes.

Clark actually played very well for the Steelers before getting hurt. Prior to his injury there was no mention of hom being replaced. The rookie that played for him when he got injured, Anthony Smith, played mostly on special teams up until Clark's injury in week 12. When Clark got hurt the kid stepped in an played well. Clark reagrivated his injury this past weekend against Carolina so its unclear if he is going to play at all the rest of the season. Had Clark not gotten injured he would've been the starter the rest of the season.

would have.. could have.... should have.... :wink:

Fact is the kid stepped in and basically from what we have heard - IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured. He could be here when he next steps on a field

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:25 pm**

IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured.

That's not really that accurate. The Steelers have said that they are impressed with Smith's ability, but there has been no specific mention of him starting ahead of Clark if both are healthy. All the articles that were written recently said that the Steeler's have a decision to make when both are healthy, but no decision has been made yet. Clark wasn't healthy enough to start this week and injured his groin again in the game so he probably wont be playing much the rest of the season.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:35 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:
IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured.

That's not really that accurate. The Steelers have said that they are impressed with Smith's ability, but there has been no specific mention of him starting ahead of Clark if both are healthy. All the articles that were written recently said that the Steeler's have a decision to make when both are healthy, but no decision has been made yet. Clark wasn't healthy enough to start this week and injured his groin again in the game so he probably wont be playing much the rest of the season.

Either way let that guy who stated Pittsburgh had better fans then D.C stay out there in Pittsburgh. I don't want him. :evil:

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:50 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:
IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured.

That's not really that accurate. The Steelers have said that they are impressed with Smith's ability, but there has been no specific mention of him starting ahead of Clark if both are healthy. All the articles that were written recently said that the Steeler's have a decision to make when both are healthy, but no decision has been made yet. Clark wasn't healthy enough to start this week and injured his groin again in the game so he probably wont be playing much the rest of the season.

You may want to re-read your posts and realize that none of them contradict they overpaid for him. In the end, they can get the same job done cheaper. Would that not be pretty much by definition saying they "overpaid?"

You could have bought the same toaster for $30 you paid $50 for. OK, that doesn't mean youI don't need a toaster, it means you paid $20 too much for it. So, if we can sign him for less, we want him back to do the job a rookie will be doing in Pittsburgh. Or the backup also challenging for his job who according to Pittsburgh can do the same thing, cheaper.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:08 pm**

You may want to re-read your posts and realize that none of them contradict they overpaid for him. In the end, they can get the same job done cheaper. Would that not be pretty much by definition saying they "overpaid?"

You could have bought the same toaster for $30 you paid $50 for. OK, that doesn't mean youI don't need a toaster, it means you paid $20 too much for it. So, if we can sign him for less, we want him back to do the job a rookie will be doing in Pittsburgh. Or the backup also challenging for his job who according to Pittsburgh can do the same thing, cheaper.

They didn't overpay for him. When they signed him they got him at market value. They signed him before the draft even took place, so they had no idea that they were going to end up with Smith or that he would be ready to start this season. Just because a rookie can play as well as the veteran doesn't mean that the veteran is overpaid. If Clark was playing like crap then I could understand that your argument that he is overpaid.

According to your way of thinking, Jansen, Brunell, Portis, Salavae'a, etc most all be overpaid also because Wade, JC, Betts, Golston have played just as well subbing for those guys.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:23 pm**

Nate Clements would be a good addition but not great. I hope we don't overpay for him, too.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:18 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:
IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured.

That's not really that accurate. The Steelers have said that they are impressed with Smith's ability, but there has been no specific mention of him starting ahead of Clark if both are healthy. All the articles that were written recently said that the Steeler's have a decision to make when both are healthy, but no decision has been made yet. Clark wasn't healthy enough to start this week and injured his groin again in the game so he probably wont be playing much the rest of the season.

I'll take that "That's not really that accurate" as a definite maybe

Soooo.. It looks like Pittsburgh really likes what they have seen of Smith, and, considering everything, it looks like Clark is on the short end of this. This not a reflection on Clark's play or what he is making - no big deal - that is how things happen - It looks like he will be out and Smith will be "in".

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:29 pm**

SkinsJock wrote:
SkinzCanes wrote:
IF Clark stays there the only way he gets back his job is IF Smith gets injured.

That's not really that accurate. The Steelers have said that they are impressed with Smith's ability, but there has been no specific mention of him starting ahead of Clark if both are healthy. All the articles that were written recently said that the Steeler's have a decision to make when both are healthy, but no decision has been made yet. Clark wasn't healthy enough to start this week and injured his groin again in the game so he probably wont be playing much the rest of the season.

I'll take that "That's not really that accurate" as a definite maybe

Soooo.. It looks like Pittsburgh really likes what they have seen of Smith, and, considering everything, it looks like Clark is on the short end of this. This not a reflection on Clark's play or what he is making - no big deal - that is how things happen - It looks like he will be out and Smith will be "in".

Unlike the Redskins the Steelers have seemed to figure out the enigma that is the NFL draft.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:11 pm**

Smoot is a Free Agent?

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:14 am**

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Unlike the Redskins the Steelers have seemed to figure out the enigma that is the NFL draft.

You need draft picks to play that game...

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:02 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:They didn't overpay for him {Ryan Clark}. When they signed him they got him at market value.

They outbid everyone. Including us. Market value would have been he is choosing between multiple roughly equivalent offers. When they bid more then others you can't use their own contract to say that was market. By that logic we got AA at market value. In fact you could never overpay anyone because their own contract establishes what they paid as market.

SkinzCanes wrote:They signed him before the draft even took place, so they had no idea that they were going to end up with Smith or that he would be ready to start this season. Just because a rookie can play as well as the veteran doesn't mean that the veteran is overpaid. If Clark was playing like crap then I could understand that your argument that he is overpaid.

You keep ignoring that he's competing with BOTH the rookie AND his lower paid backup for playing time.

SkinzCanes wrote:According to your way of thinking, Jansen, Brunell, Portis, Salavae'a, etc most all be overpaid also because Wade, JC, Betts, Golston have played just as well subbing for those guys.

This is a stretch. OK, I'm being nice it's a fabrication.

- First, you are saying they played as well and therefore I am saying we overpaid for the starters. I do not accept your blanket contention that they ARE playing like the starters, and even if they did, doing so for a few games still doesn't get you they are still worth the same money as guys who played well for their career to get the starter contract. So your assumption is faulty.

- Second, I have not said we have never overpaid anyone. We are discussing Ryan Clark. Just because you're not doing so well in that discussion does not mean you can change the subject and I need to swing at every pitch. I have different views of people in your list, but we are not discussing them so I'm not addressing that here to help you get off the Ryan Clark hook.

- Third, I said market is what others are willing to pay for them. Pittsburgh outbid others. Even if your false equivalance between the starters and subs above were true, that does not mean we did or did not outbid anyone for the starters so you have a non-point even if you accept your contention.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:23 pm**

Okay - I'm confused

This is about Nate Clements, no?

Hopefully we can get some players here on defense that fit both each other and the system (whatever it is).

I am looking forward to next year but I also remember thinking that we would be good this year because of who we added as both players and coaches and look at what happened.

I am hoping that there has been a lot of learning from this experience this year and we will see the results of that this off season and with a lot different result in the play of this team next season.

I also am looking forward to both these games and especially the final game, but I will not get into that until next week :twisted:

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:44 pm**

SkinsJock wrote:Okay - I'm confused This is about Nate Clements, no?

For some Skins "fans" all threads are about firing the front office for not firing Joe Gibbs and Greg Williams and firing them for not giving LaVar Arrington, Antonio Pierce, Fred Smoot and Ryan Clark anything their hearts desired to stay.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:12 pm**

They outbid everyone. Including us. Market value would have been he is choosing between multiple roughly equivalent offers. When they bid more then others you can't use their own contract to say that was market. By that logic we got AA at market value. In fact you could never overpay anyone because their own contract establishes what they paid as market.

And how exactly do you know that they outbid everyone else? What other teams offered Clark a contract? How much did they offer? All he wanted from the Skins was the same contract that Bowen got a few years ago. That is certainly market value. And it's not like the Steelers offered him some huge contract that was unreasonable. He got a 4 year deal for $7 million, including a $1.65 million signing bonus. The fact is that you have no shown any proof that Clark's contract was no in fact market value as you claim.

You keep ignoring that he's competing with BOTH the rookie AND his lower paid backup for playing time.

Actually he's not competing for playing time with anybody because he's injured and isn't going to play this week. Before he got hurt the job was his and he was playing well. When he got hurt others got a chance to play and have played well. The rookie that you keep talking about, Anthony Smith, also got publicly criticized in the press this week by both his head coach, defensive coordinator, and teammates for showboating during the Panthers game.

even if they did, doing so for a few games still doesn't get you they are still worth the same money as guys who played well for their career to get the starter contract.

So what exactly is your point regarding Clark then? A rookie played well for a couple games replacing him so you take that to mean that Clark is overpaid and not getting the job done. But then in relation to the Skins you are saying that non-starters playing well for a few games doesn't mean that they are worth the same money as a veteran who has gotten the job done over the span of his career. Which one is it?

Third, I said market is what others are willing to pay for them. Pittsburgh outbid others. Even if your false equivalance between the starters and subs above were true, that does not mean we did or did not outbid anyone for the starters so you have a non-point even if you accept your contention.

We constantly outbid other teams for our players. Randle El got a 7 year $31 million dollar deal with an $11.5 million signing bonus. The second closest offer was from the Bears who offered 6 years at $18 million with an $8 million deal. Archuletta wanted to go play for Lovie Smith but chose to come here instead after we gave him that rediculous contract. The Skins overpaying for people is nothing new.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:29 pm**

SkinzCanes wrote:So what exactly is your point regarding Clark then?

To repeat, he's not a big deal. And he is not demonstrating through his play that he is. I've agreed if he lowers his price and we can get him for what he's worth rather then what Pittsburgh paid, I'll welcome him back. I keep asking why a year later you people keep pining for him like his being here would have made any big difference. We replaced him Preileau, who unfortunately got hurt. Then Vincent and Fox, neither of whom were any downgrade from Clark. AA was a bust but not really a replacement for him since they would have played different downs and shared the position.

The rest was ramble.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:48 pm**

Chris Luva Luva wrote:To be honest I think the Skins would be better off bringing Smoot and Clark back. Both are F/A's.

are you sure about clark? i looked at some websites and did not see him on free agent lists

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:00 pm**

StatKid wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:To be honest I think the Skins would be better off bringing Smoot and Clark back. Both are F/A's.

are you sure about clark? i looked at some websites and did not see him on free agent lists

Clark just signed a new contract last year.... it wasn't a 1 yr deal

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:33 am**

man im confused.

i thought chris said he was a f/a, but he just signed a deal with the steelers

Posted: **Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:24 am**

You're confused? Welcome to the world of Vinny Cerrato.

Posted: **Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:15 pm**

-- Clements Could Return to Bills, But... --Mon Jan 29, 2007 --from FFMastermind.com

Bills Daily reports in an interview with WGR radio, CB Nate Clements did not rule out returning to Buffalo next year. He did say there has been no contact between his agent and the team since the season ended but he's not surprised by that. He told Howard Simon that he will take his time before making a decision since this may be the last contract of his career. He said there is definitely a chance he will be back and while he has to think about his family, money won't be the only thing he'll consider when he hits the market. Winning is important to him and he's optimistic where the Bills are headed. He also said he won't rule out going to any team and acknowledged Washington is a possibility since Greg Williams and Jerry Gray are there and they were the ones who drafted him.