The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Great post, welch.

welch wrote: If the Redskins were leading the NFC East, we'd have Brunell starting, and rightfully.

Except it's highly unlikely any team starting Brunell would ever lead the NFC East, unless the defense was top 5 (certainly not the case this year) and the RB was having a record-setting year (as Portis had last year). How'd we do in 2004 with Brunell as the starter and a top 5 defense?

Oh, and it is clear that Gibbs played Brunell because Gibbs thought he was a better QB.

No one doubts that is what Gibbs thought; the question is, was Gibbs right? 3-6 as a starter (again, same as what Brunell did to us in '04) isn't a great record for an experienced veteran QB.

Welch,

Good post but let's remember that studying film until 4am has gotten us 4-9.... Gibbs is not the same guy as he was before and it is very glaring. From the light training camp to him losing the one thing that was a staple of his first tenure: halftime adjustments....

Gibbs 2.0 has what, 1-2 years left to right the ship. Unless he is willing to strip down his coaches and get tough again with this entire team, his second time around was a complete failure....

skinsfan#33 wrote:

The Hogster wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

The Hogster wrote:If Campbell gets that ball out of bounds, like he was trying to do, or if our line doesn't get blasted such that the other fat lineman isn't there to pick it off...people would be calling his move "crafty" and "smart' since he wouldn't have taken us out of FG range...it was a bad play, the defense was in the right place, but its not all his fault....I seem to remember 3 red jerseys in the backfield when he turned around....

If he had gotten the ball out of bounds he would have been flagged for intentional grounding and would have moved the team out of FG range. He should have taken the sack. But he is young and I am more concerned about the four other picks that he almost threw on outs because of how long it take for him to release the ball. Unless he changes his throwing motion you can count on him throwing 1 or 2 picks a year in the flats that go for TDs. The team can uses that to trick DB and catches them biting on pump fakes, but will they?

He would not have been flagged for intentional grounding if he threw the ball out of bounds in the general vicinity of a receiver. Since the ball didn't go beyond the LOS there is no way to say for sure he would have gotten a grounding call.

Gibbs just said yesterday that you don't try and change a guy's motion once he is at this level..he's been throwing that way his whole life, you can screw a guy up trying to do that. He joked that Leftwich brings the ball all the way down to the ground before he releases it and he has success...the throwing motion is not his problem...he just needs to play, learn and improve.

Just keep watching. Either Campbell will HAVE to change his throwing motion or the Skins will have to game plan to cover it up. Double move and pump fakes will help keep the DB's from jumping a pass or the team could just throw out any quick outs. Because to pull off a "quick out" you have to get the bAll out quick! I just hope Philly doesn't take one to the house today.

Hate to say it but I told you so! That pick that went for a TD was Campbells's fault! On a quick slant, you can't take as long as he did to get the ball to the receiver. Because it took so long the DB was able to reach around ey and knock the ball into the air. Hell, he almost threw another pick because of his slow release. Had that been a more athletic LB it would have been a pick.

welch wrote:The only other case I know where Gibbs brought in a veteran to replace a kid QB was when he collected Jeff Rutledge, career backup, to replace Stan Humphries as number two QB. Humphries, remember, had been given the number one job after the '90 season, but neglected to study the playbook or to keep in shape. Gibbs took that as an indication of character, and let him sit through the SB 26 season.

That's the history, not the ESPN blather.

I'm glad I'm not the only non-20 something who doesn't remember and hasn't researched Gibbs stints. Things you keep reading on this site:

- We trade away or draft picks!!!! OK, but we did in Gibbs first stint too
- Gibbs won't play the youngsters!!!! OK, but Gibbs kept getting the same flack in his first stint too
- We must have a GM!!!! OK, but since we hear the same thing as the first stint, how is that going to change what's the same?

Then how can a cometent coach have a bad third year!!!! Boggles the mind, doesn't it? As they get longer in the tooth like we are, they'll learn.

I hope.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

welch wrote:The only other case I know where Gibbs brought in a veteran to replace a kid QB was when he collected Jeff Rutledge, career backup, to replace Stan Humphries as number two QB. Humphries, remember, had been given the number one job after the '90 season, but neglected to study the playbook or to keep in shape. Gibbs took that as an indication of character, and let him sit through the SB 26 season.

That's the history, not the ESPN blather.

I'm glad I'm not the only 20 something who doesn't remember and hasn't researched Gibbs stints. Things you keep reading on this site:

- We trade away or draft picks!!!! OK, but we did in Gibbs first stint too
- Gibbs won't play the youngsters!!!! OK, but Gibbs kept getting the same flack in his first stint too
- We must have a GM!!!! OK, but since we hear the same thing as the first stint, how is that going to change what's the same?

Then how can a cometent coach have a bad third year!!!! Boggles the mind, doesn't it? As they get longer in the tooth like we are, they'll learn.

I hope.

One thing to remember about personnel matters between Gibbs I and II is that it's all different - there's a salary cap, free agency, etc. Players didn't move around nearly as much back then as they did now, and the old owner (JKC) was never afraid to spend the money to bring people here (much like Danny now). Some of the old ways, like consistently trading picks, aren't going to work in this new age. I remember reading an article about successful teams and drafting, and some of the most successful teams, like Indy and Chicago, drafted the vast majority of their starters and developed them internally. Our free agent shopping spree over the last 5+ years hasn't resulted in any great success.

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only non-20 something who doesn't remember and hasn't researched Gibbs stints. Things you keep reading on this site:

- We trade away or draft picks!!!! OK, but we did in Gibbs first stint too
- Gibbs won't play the youngsters!!!! OK, but Gibbs kept getting the same flack in his first stint too
- We must have a GM!!!! OK, but since we hear the same thing as the first stint, how is that going to change what's the same?

Then how can a cometent coach have a bad third year!!!! Boggles the mind, doesn't it? As they get longer in the tooth like we are, they'll learn.

I hope.

One thing to remember about personnel matters between Gibbs I and II is that it's all different - there's a salary cap, free agency, etc. Players didn't move around nearly as much back then as they did now, and the old owner (JKC) was never afraid to spend the money to bring people here (much like Danny now). Some of the old ways, like consistently trading picks, aren't going to work in this new age. I remember reading an article about successful teams and drafting, and some of the most successful teams, like Indy and Chicago, drafted the vast majority of their starters and developed them internally. Our free agent shopping spree over the last 5+ years hasn't resulted in any great success.

I agree with you on that. It's just that Gibbs is Gibbs. He won with the Skins, he won at NASCAR. He's been back 3 years and we have had a playoff year, rare since he left and even won a playoff game.

No doubt this year is disappointing, but the amateur GMs who don't know history think we just hire a GM and keep our draft picks and fire the "addled" Gibbs and we win Superbowls. Not only has Gibbs not been bad, but we have not won a Superbowl with the many coaches not named Gibbs in our history, and they don't realize that either. A list that includes Vince Lombardi, George Allen, Jack Pardee, Marty Schottenheimer, Steve Spurrier, Norv Turner and others.

And the solution offered is to fire Gibbs, fire GW, fire Saunders. And you don't even need to know history to understand that jerking coaches around leads to a complete lost of consistency and endless losses. And who will take the job after we run the greatest coach in our history out of town after 3 years, one of which was a playoff run?

I'm disappointed too, but that doesn't mean I have completely lost all reason or perspective.

I agree with you on that. It's just that Gibbs is Gibbs. He won with the Skins, he won at NASCAR. He's been back 3 years and we have had a playoff year, rare since he left and even won a playoff game.

Amen. I think all of the talk regarding "Gibbs I and II" or "Gibbs v1.0 and Gibbs v2.0" is entirely illegitimate.

Irn-Bru wrote:

I agree with you on that. It's just that Gibbs is Gibbs. He won with the Skins, he won at NASCAR. He's been back 3 years and we have had a playoff year, rare since he left and even won a playoff game.

Amen. I think all of the talk regarding "Gibbs I and II" or "Gibbs v1.0 and Gibbs v2.0" is entirely illegitimate.

Why?

Mursilis wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:

I agree with you on that. It's just that Gibbs is Gibbs. He won with the Skins, he won at NASCAR. He's been back 3 years and we have had a playoff year, rare since he left and even won a playoff game.

Amen. I think all of the talk regarding "Gibbs I and II" or "Gibbs v1.0 and Gibbs v2.0" is entirely illegitimate.

Why?

In short, for the very reason that KazooSkins stated above: "Gibbs is Gibbs."


Talking about MB04 as if it's some kind of evil twin is ludicrous. Talking about Gibbs v1.0 as if we don't have the same person coaching the Redskins now is absurd.

We might as well talk about Jason "Week12SecondQuarterTenMinutesToGo" Campbell, who really screwed us over that time. . .so let's hope that we don't see "him" again. Madness.

Irn-Bru wrote:[Talking about MB04 as if it's some kind of evil twin is ludicrous.

MB04 is funny imo. Its just a way to say he regressed back to his level of play on 2004.

Irn-Bru wrote:Talking about Gibbs v1.0 as if we don't have the same person coaching the Redskins now is absurd.

I dont think Gibbs has changed, the game certainly has. I dont think Gibbs is the problem. I think the philosophy is wrong. I believe if Joe was placed in a traditional organization (Baltimore) he'd be deep in the playoffs for a 2nd year.

Irn-Bru wrote:We might as well talk about Jason "Week12SecondQuarterTenMinutesToGo" Campbell, who really screwed us over that time. . .so let's hope that we don't see "him" again. Madness.

THats entirely too long. JCW12-13:45 is a bit easier.

Ah, thank you Chris. From now on, whenever Campbell throws a pick, I'll refer to it as "Oh no, it looks like JCW12-13:45 is back in business. . . "

Irn-Bru wrote:In short, for the very reason that KazooSkins stated above: "Gibbs is Gibbs."

But all people change over time, including Gibbs. Frankly, I wonder if he's as motivated as he was the first time. He's already done almost everything a coach can do in the NFL - won three Super Bowls, been elected to the Hall of Fame, and established one of the great legacys of all time in this game. Most coaches would be ecstatic to call that a career. He's already been to the mountaintop, and there's nothing left to prove. Many people are motivated to climb Everest, but how many are motivated to climb it twice? I understand why some here are still certain Gibbs will have us winning a Super Bowl in the next 2 years; I felt that way myself when I first heard he was coming back. Gibbs was THE MAN; there was no way he could lose. Except that's mostly what we've seen, more losing. Gibbs has, in the three seasons he's been back, already had his worst two seasons ever. It's just baffling how it could turn out like that.

Mursilis wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:In short, for the very reason that KazooSkins stated above: "Gibbs is Gibbs."

But all people change over time, including Gibbs. Frankly, I wonder if he's as motivated as he was the first time. He's already done almost everything a coach can do in the NFL - won three Super Bowls, been elected to the Hall of Fame, and established one of the great legacys of all time in this game. Most coaches would be ecstatic to call that a career. He's already been to the mountaintop, and there's nothing left to prove. Many people are motivated to climb Everest, but how many are motivated to climb it twice? I understand why some here are still certain Gibbs will have us winning a Super Bowl in the next 2 years; I felt that way myself when I first heard he was coming back. Gibbs was THE MAN; there was no way he could lose. Except that's mostly what we've seen, more losing. Gibbs has, in the three seasons he's been back, already had his worst two seasons ever. It's just baffling how it could turn out like that.

To repeat, my point was (which I said pretty clearly) that Gibbs IS doing the same things. Starting vets, trading draft picks, sticking with people he knows over the newbies. People are making it sound like if we stopped doing those things we would end our troubles.

I'm pointing out, but that's the same thing!!! WE did it before and won 3 Superbowls!!!

And we did it this time and ended our playoff drought. Did you forget that?

And Gibbs is the top of the pyramid. Management is about leadership and Gibbs has and is proving his tremendous value there. Leadership is not about being the technical expert.

You're just wrong if you are saying the problem is football has passed Gibbs by, there's no way to pad it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:To repeat, my point was (which I said pretty clearly) that Gibbs IS doing the same things. Starting vets, trading draft picks, sticking with people he knows over the newbies. People are making it sound like if we stopped doing those things we would end our troubles.

I'm pointing out, but that's the same thing!!! WE did it before and won 3 Superbowls!!!

Not so many now, though, huh?

And we did it this time and ended our playoff drought. Did you forget that?

How could I forget it? It always comes up. Frankly, though, it's not that huge an accomplishment. Sure, it's an accomplishment, but still, the way the league is designed these days (salary cap, free agency, the reverse-order draft), more than half the teams make the playoffs over a 5-year period, especially in the woeful NFC, where only 2 teams haven't been in the playoffs the last five years. It takes a special ineptitude NOT to make the playoffs over a 5-year term. Norv Turner made the playoffs; Jim Mora Jr. made the playoffs; Jim Fassel made the playoffs; Mike Tice made the playoffs; Dennis Green made the playoffs 8 times! Sean Payton's going to make the playoffs in his first year, with a team that was 3-13 last year! Anyone think Norv Turner or Mike Tice are going to the Hall of Fame?

And Gibbs is the top of the pyramid. Management is about leadership and Gibbs has and is proving his tremendous value there. Leadership is not about being the technical expert.

You're just wrong if you are saying the problem is football has passed Gibbs by, there's no way to pad it.

I never said football has passed him by; I just wonder if he's as motivated this time as he was the first time he came to town, and the fan reaction was more like "Who?!?!"

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:To repeat, my point was (which I said pretty clearly) that Gibbs IS doing the same things. Starting vets, trading draft picks, sticking with people he knows over the newbies. People are making it sound like if we stopped doing those things we would end our troubles.

I'm pointing out, but that's the same thing!!! WE did it before and won 3 Superbowls!!!

Not so many now, though, huh?

And we did it this time and ended our playoff drought. Did you forget that?

How could I forget it? It always comes up. Frankly, though, it's not that huge an accomplishment. Sure, it's an accomplishment, but still, the way the league is designed these days (salary cap, free agency, the reverse-order draft), more than half the teams make the playoffs over a 5-year period, especially in the woeful NFC, where only 2 teams haven't been in the playoffs the last five years. It takes a special ineptitude NOT to make the playoffs over a 5-year term. Norv Turner made the playoffs; Jim Mora Jr. made the playoffs; Jim Fassel made the playoffs; Mike Tice made the playoffs; Dennis Green made the playoffs 8 times! Sean Payton's going to make the playoffs in his first year, with a team that was 3-13 last year! Anyone think Norv Turner or Mike Tice are going to the Hall of Fame?

And Gibbs is the top of the pyramid. Management is about leadership and Gibbs has and is proving his tremendous value there. Leadership is not about being the technical expert.

You're just wrong if you are saying the problem is football has passed Gibbs by, there's no way to pad it.

I never said football has passed him by; I just wonder if he's as motivated this time as he was the first time he came to town, and the fan reaction was more like "Who?!?!"

- He won three Superbowls
- He won at Nascar. I dont' know what, I'm not into it. But it sounded impressive.
- He got a crappy team and ended the playoff drought. It has been only 3 years. What are you looking for that any other Hall of Fame coach has delivered? Non of them turned crappy teams into consistent winners overnight. None of them made the playoffs every year. None of them didn't have disappointing seasons.

I'm disappointed too, I'm just not pointing fingers. I want stability. We have the team, we have the coaches, we have the talent. Let's stop revolving and tweek, jell and build. That's what I want.

What do you want?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:To repeat, my point was (which I said pretty clearly) that Gibbs IS doing the same things. Starting vets, trading draft picks, sticking with people he knows over the newbies. People are making it sound like if we stopped doing those things we would end our troubles.

I'm pointing out, but that's the same thing!!! WE did it before and won 3 Superbowls!!!

Not so many now, though, huh?

And we did it this time and ended our playoff drought. Did you forget that?

How could I forget it? It always comes up. Frankly, though, it's not that huge an accomplishment. Sure, it's an accomplishment, but still, the way the league is designed these days (salary cap, free agency, the reverse-order draft), more than half the teams make the playoffs over a 5-year period, especially in the woeful NFC, where only 2 teams haven't been in the playoffs the last five years. It takes a special ineptitude NOT to make the playoffs over a 5-year term. Norv Turner made the playoffs; Jim Mora Jr. made the playoffs; Jim Fassel made the playoffs; Mike Tice made the playoffs; Dennis Green made the playoffs 8 times! Sean Payton's going to make the playoffs in his first year, with a team that was 3-13 last year! Anyone think Norv Turner or Mike Tice are going to the Hall of Fame?

And Gibbs is the top of the pyramid. Management is about leadership and Gibbs has and is proving his tremendous value there. Leadership is not about being the technical expert.

You're just wrong if you are saying the problem is football has passed Gibbs by, there's no way to pad it.

I never said football has passed him by; I just wonder if he's as motivated this time as he was the first time he came to town, and the fan reaction was more like "Who?!?!"

- He won three Superbowls
- He won at Nascar. I dont' know what, I'm not into it. But it sounded impressive.
- He got a crappy team and ended the playoff drought. It has been only 3 years. What are you looking for that any other Hall of Fame coach has delivered? Non of them turned crappy teams into consistent winners overnight. None of them made the playoffs every year. None of them didn't have disappointing seasons.

I'm disappointed too, I'm just not pointing fingers. I want stability. We have the team, we have the coaches, we have the talent. Let's stop revolving and tweek, jell and build. That's what I want.

What do you want?

To see this team win lots and lots of football games.

Mursilis wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I'm disappointed too, I'm just not pointing fingers. I want stability. We have the team, we have the coaches, we have the talent. Let's stop revolving and tweek, jell and build. That's what I want.

What do you want?

To see this team win lots and lots of football games.

, on that we agree.