The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsJock wrote:It aint over till the fat lady sings - Gibbs will coach for 2 more years and Williams succeeds him. At which time Williams defense will be established as top 5 in the NFL. HAIL

If they're are any fat ladies available, I suggest we try them out at defensive end.

roybus14 wrote:

Cheers, ol' Chap....

I will say up front that we should agree to disagree, upfront to get it out of the way.

"Cheers, ol' chap"???? I swear, some of you guys probably think Dick van Dyke's cockney accent was spot on in Mary Poppins.

As for agreeing to disagree, I agree. As long as you realise that you're wrong, and I'm right.

Willams has led our defense back from the dead.

This year was a hicup. I'm sure he now sees that you need talent to go with your schemes, unlike the Bronco offensive line.

He knows who has given up and who has not.

As for the busts, one year can't tell you much.

B Lloyd has caught more than he has dropped, and is not afraid of the big hit. I know his second half will look 100x better than the first. I whatched film of him in SF, and he is a playmaker.

Carlos Rogers is not having a great year, but he is still learning, and last year showed signs of being a lights out corner. I am still waiting to see a hit like he dished out while at Arburn.

Adam Arch Deluxe is playing horrible, but he is a better player than what we have seen. Alienating him now would be just stupid.

PulpExposure wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Gregg Williams' defense in Buffalo only got better the longer that he was there, so I don't know how well history corroborates with how the Skins' players are feeling right now.

I think we'll have a much better idea next year--one year's collapse isn't a lot to go on.

His defense did get better statistically (21-15-2), but from a friend of mine who is a Bills fan (who is as fanatic a Bills fan as I am a Skins fan), his team stopped listening to him. He was basically forced out in a player revolt.

One thing I really appreciated in Williams (the past two years) is that our players didn't miss tackles. It's something that I had been used to over the years before....Redskins players missing tackles. But it suddenly came to a stop when Williams got to town.

But now, all of a sudden, we're missing tackles. A lot of them. It's hurting us. And it really makes me wonder if they're just not playing hard for Williams anymore.

Isn't it funny when we hear the players are "revolting" over the coaches when they are losing, not winning?

If, and I say If, the players were unhappy with Williams, maybe they should focus on their own poor play and and criticize coaches when they don't suck.

But I agree overall with Irn-Bru, one poor D season is not a lot to go on. The NFL is a steep slope, it means little. If it continues then we can talk.

First of all, anybody who doesn't place the failure of this year's defense squarely on the shoulders of Greg Williams is dead wrong.

Greg Williams may be a fine coach, but in his assigned role with this team he is in over his head. IMHO, he inherited a lot of talented players and he has let most of them slip through his fingers and replaced them with lesser players, a process of personnel decline which is mirrored in the decline of the ranking of his defense. What we're left with, after quality players like Marcus Washington, are people who have absolutely no business playing for this team, like Mike Rumph, Kenny Wright, Andre Carter, Warrick Holdman, and Adam Archuleta - all, I would wager, personally picked and/or approved by Greg Williams. Under Williams reign we have lost quality players like Antonio Pierce, Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, Ryan Clark, et all, all quality, underrated players, and since Gibbs undoubtedly let's Williams pick his own players, it's all on him.

It all goes back to the problem of a lack of a GM. The coaches are given too much power to pick players, a job which the THINK they know how to do, but which they actually don't have the skills for. All the successful teams in this league have professional GMs and scouting staffs that are held accountable for failures. Here we have just a bunch of yes-men in the front office, and it shows in the results.

It's funny that we say we need continuity and consistency, then immediately call for everyone's head when they mess up.

Those two principles are mutually exclusive. The answer to the problems might very well be on our bench, on the practice squad, or in the upcoming draft (if we decide to use the picks).

Sure the season's been disappointment defensively. We surely need to get back to fundamentals and re-learn to tackle for one.

We also need pass rushing..big time.

I think patience is due for Williams considering his collective success over the last three seasons. He should not be sent to the wolves just yet.

Greg Williams should have never let go of Arrington!! That was his biggest mistake thinking his scheme would overide actuall talent!

The Hogster wrote:It's funny that we say we need continuity and consistency, then immediately call for everyone's head when they mess up.

Those two principles are mutually exclusive. The answer to the problems might very well be on our bench, on the practice squad, or in the upcoming draft (if we decide to use the picks).

I'm not calling for Williams' head. I'm saying he has too much power to pick players, which is outside of the taditional coach's role. What we need is a good or at least competent GM (and I don't mean Charlie Casserly) to take on the major role in player selection, and let the coaches do what coaches do best: coach.

UK Skins Fan wrote:roybus14 wrote:

Cheers, ol' Chap....

I will say up front that we should agree to disagree, upfront to get it out of the way.

"Cheers, ol' chap"???? I swear, some of you guys probably think Dick van Dyke's cockney accent was spot on in Mary Poppins.

As for agreeing to disagree, I agree. As long as you realise that you're wrong, and I'm right.

You are fun-kneeeeee.......

The only thing that I would question about Williams is why he is still playing Holdman rather than Rocky. I haven't seen Holdman do anything.

old-timer wrote:First of all, anybody who doesn't place the failure of this year's defense squarely on the shoulders of Greg Williams is dead wrong.

Greg Williams may be a fine coach, but in his assigned role with this team he is in over his head. IMHO, he inherited a lot of talented players and he has let most of them slip through his fingers and replaced them with lesser players, a process of personnel decline which is mirrored in the decline of the ranking of his defense. What we're left with, after quality players like Marcus Washington, are people who have absolutely no business playing for this team, like Mike Rumph, Kenny Wright, Andre Carter, Warrick Holdman, and Adam Archuleta - all, I would wager, personally picked and/or approved by Greg Williams. Under Williams reign we have lost quality players like Antonio Pierce, Champ Bailey, Fred Smoot, Ryan Clark, et all, all quality, underrated players, and since Gibbs undoubtedly let's Williams pick his own players, it's all on him.

It all goes back to the problem of a lack of a GM. The coaches are given too much power to pick players, a job which the THINK they know how to do, but which they actually don't have the skills for. All the successful teams in this league have professional GMs and scouting staffs that are held accountable for failures. Here we have just a bunch of yes-men in the front office, and it shows in the results.

Across the 30, the 20 with one man to beat, the 10, the 5, TOUCHDOWN O.T.!!!!!

I am glad that there are a few people on this board that can see through their burgundy colored glasses and see what is really going on. Like I said in my thread about Snyder, the only thing that he has been doing is writing the checks. GW wanted AA so bad that he told Danny to write this dude a check for the most money ever received by a Safety. Why else would we sign him for that much money.

And once again, our local media let's these guys off the hook by not asking the "real" not hard but "real" questions in these post-game interviews and in the papers. If I were a reporter in those pressers the question/questions that I would ask GW or Gibbs is: "who's decision was it to go after AA and not resign Ryan Clark, a core guy, for less money?"; "who's decisions has it been over the last couple of years to let guys you called "core guys" go like Pierce, Clark, Smoot, Arrington, etc.?"; "why does this team not develop and keep the talent that they draft like a Pierce, Clark, Smoot, Arrington, etc.?"

The arrogance and lack of whatever from GW and his staff runs so deep that they failed to realize that Clark was the glue that held that secondary, in particular Sean Taylor, together. Daniel Snyder is a businessman and it boggles my mind from a business standpoint why you would sign a guy to triple and quadruple of what a core guy like Clark was asking for. According to the article that ran in the Post on Monday, Clark was only looking for a contract similar to the one Matt Bowen got, which was a far cry from what they paid AA. So the Steelers have one of our "core guys" for 4 years at $7 mil. with $1+ signing bonus. Now it doesn't take a football mind to do the math on that one.

This all falls back to GW's deficiencies and the fact that we have no GM.......

HEROHAMO wrote:Greg Williams should have never let go of Arrington!! That was his biggest mistake thinking his scheme would overide actuall talent!

Give it up.

The Hogster wrote:It's funny that we say we need continuity and consistency, then immediately call for everyone's head when they mess up.

Those two principles are mutually exclusive. The answer to the problems might very well be on our bench, on the practice squad, or in the upcoming draft (if we decide to use the picks).

I agree. It usually goes like this: complain that Washington never has consistency, have patience for 1/4 the season, start pointing out holes in our offensive / defensive schemes, repeat step 3 until the dead horse is mashed to a pulp, get so frustrated that you call for change, get angry when change doesn't seem to happen, suffer until the end of the year (it seems like an eternity), express relief when the changes are made, and we're back to complaining about consistency. . .

Irn-Bru wrote:

The Hogster wrote:It's funny that we say we need continuity and consistency, then immediately call for everyone's head when they mess up.

Those two principles are mutually exclusive. The answer to the problems might very well be on our bench, on the practice squad, or in the upcoming draft (if we decide to use the picks).

I agree. It usually goes like this: complain that Washington never has consistency, have patience for 1/4 the season, start pointing out holes in our offensive / defensive schemes, repeat step 3 until the dead horse is mashed to a pulp, get so frustrated that you call for change, get angry when change doesn't seem to happen, suffer until the end of the year (it seems like an eternity), express relief when the changes are made, and we're back to complaining about consistency. . .

I agree also. Looking at this from a distance, this organization needs to stick with what they got right now and go with that for the next 2-3 years before they start looking at bringing in other people outside of drafting them. Right now, we have done so bad at personnel and draft picks that this coaching staff and the players need to roll their sleeves and make the lemonade out of the lemons that we got now. Instead of telling eveybody how brillant our offensive and defensive schemes are, let's try coaching it to our players. If we are going to build continuity, let's do it now by making what we got work the rest of this season and over the next couple of years. Start the search now for a qualified and experienced GM so that when we are ready in the next couple of years to make moves, we have the right person to do it.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Greg Williams should have never let go of Arrington!! That was his biggest mistake thinking his scheme would overide actuall talent!

Give it up.

Williams had excellent success when Arrington wasn't playing. It wasn't him.

Williams had excellent success when Arrington wasn't playing. It wasn't him.

Not saying that we should've kept Lavar, but last season the defense started to play much better, especially against the run, once Lavar replaced Holdman. However, I think that that has more to do with Holdman sucking than Lavar being good. But either way, Holdman shouldn't be starting for us, or any other NFL team for that matter.

SkinzCanes wrote:

Williams had excellent success when Arrington wasn't playing. It wasn't him.

Not saying that we should've kept Lavar, but last season the defense started to play much better, especially against the run, once Lavar replaced Holdman. However, I think that that has more to do with Holdman sucking than Lavar being good. But either way, Holdman shouldn't be starting for us, or any other NFL team for that matter.

I agree completely. And it's even worse than that. They have this linebacker they used in essence 2 2nd rounders on, just sitting there. It's not like there are people in front of him that are irreplaceable.

I mean...Warrick Holdman? It's not like Rocky has Lawrence Taylor sitting in front of him. Hell, he's not even trying to replace someone who is considered an average NFL linebacker. He'd be replacing...Warrick Holdman, a journeyman linebacker.

Here are the problems I see with our defense this year:

1) Linebackers -- I find it very interesting that no one mentioned how poorly the entire LBing core is playing. Once a runner gets beyond the line, our back 4 is making all the plays. (See #6 below) Lemar Marshall is never in the play, unless it's 15 yards downfield. Holdman is a serious liability and I really hate to say it but Marcus Washington isn't having his best year either. Maybe he's trying to cover for his two horrible linebacking buddies!

2) Andre Carter is NOT a good run stopper. Teams are running right at him. When we had Daniels and Wynn at DE we stopped the run very well. I'd remove Carter and put last years 4 DL in. Carter would be a pass rushing specialist. (Heck, he couldn't be any worse than Holdman -- play Carter at his spot and let him blitz a lot.)

3) Rogers is having a bad year -- not that suprising. Many players don't play well their sophmore year. There are plenty of examples.

4) Springs being hurt to start the year really hurt us. Wright is a 3rd CB, not a starter.

5) When Griffin doesn't play -- we lose. He's missed some games.

6) AA -- I'm the lone voice here. When the front 7 is NOT stopping the run the back 4 will get burned on the pass. I played CB as a kid and when you don't trust your front 7 on running plays, you always keep one eye on that and before you know it -- your toast. AA made a lot of tackles when he played. He was having to make the tackle 10 yards downfield. Any idea how steam a RB/FB has after running 12 yards and barely slowed by the front 7? If we had a good pass rush and our backers are playing their position at a higher level, AA would be a super player on the field. He's smart, tough, good run stopper, etc...he is NOT a cover guy and when the line is NOT getting any pressure, our back 4 will look crappy, even if we had all-pro's back there. The quality of your back 4 is directly related to your ability to get some pass rush. Give a pro Qb the time we've given them and no one can cover that long.

7) Salavae is not that good. We need a quality NFL DT to replace him.

Williams is not the problem...

fredp45 wrote:Here are the problems I see with our defense this year:

1) Linebackers -- I find it very interesting that no one mentioned how poorly the entire LBing core is playing. Once a runner gets beyond the line, our back 4 is making all the plays. (See #6 below) Lemar Marshall is never in the play, unless it's 15 yards downfield. Holdman is a serious liability and I really hate to say it but Marcus Washington isn't having his best year either. Maybe he's trying to cover for his two horrible linebacking buddies!

Washington is playing well, but I think offensive plays are being run away from him and at the Carter/Holdman combo.

And you're right. Marshall is having an awful year. But Bill Maas during the Tampa Bay game kinda exposed that publicly multiple times.

2) Andre Carter is NOT a good run stopper. Teams are running right at him. When we had Daniels and Wynn at DE we stopped the run very well. I'd remove Carter and put last years 4 DL in. Carter would be a pass rushing specialist. (Heck, he couldn't be any worse than Holdman -- play Carter at his spot and let him blitz a lot.)

We knew he couldn't play the run at all coming into the season. I also think your suggestion would have worked, or hell, just platoon the guys more.

3) Rogers is having a bad year -- not that suprising. Many players don't play well their sophmore year. There are plenty of examples.

Agreed. There's a reason why there is the term sophomore slump.

4) Springs being hurt to start the year really hurt us. Wright is a 3rd CB, not a starter.

5) When Griffin doesn't play -- we lose. He's missed some games.

Yes to both.

7) Salavae is not that good. We need a quality NFL DT to replace him.

Yes, you're right.

Williams is not the problem...

He's one of the problems.

He has input on player personnel, and lobbied for Carter and Archuleta both.

He continues to play Holdman while McIntosh sits, for no good reason.

He won't fiddle with lineups much (aside from punking Adam Archuleta). His method of dealing with players; banish them into Siberia (see AA and LaVar Arrington) is something that would bother a high school player, let alone a grown millionaire.

Our team is missing tackles. That's evidence of sloppy execution and a lack of desire. That, to me, is the responsibility in some measure of the coach.

Pulp --

No comment or reaction to #6 Re. AA?

Does that mean you think I'm nuts and you were speechless?

fredp45 wrote:Here are the problems I see with our defense this year:

For some reason we never seem to agree...

fredp45 wrote:1) Linebackers -- I find it very interesting that no one mentioned how poorly the entire LBing core is playing. Once a runner gets beyond the line, our back 4 is making all the plays. (See #6 below) Lemar Marshall is never in the play, unless it's 15 yards downfield. Holdman is a serious liability and I really hate to say it but Marcus Washington isn't having his best year either. Maybe he's trying to cover for his two horrible linebacking buddies!

Marcus has been playing hurt for part of the season, and Holdman should be a backup (though he's played better this year than last ) I don't see how replacing him with McIntosh would hurt. As far as Marshall goes, the best I've seen Holdman play was at MLB (but that was the pre-season) other than that we have no options. If Rocky isn't ready than move Lemar to WLB and Holdman in the middle. Something has to be done.

fredp45 wrote:2) Andre Carter is NOT a good run stopper. Teams are running right at him. When we had Daniels and Wynn at DE we stopped the run very well. I'd remove Carter and put last years 4 DL in. Carter would be a pass rushing specialist. (Heck, he couldn't be any worse than Holdman -- play Carter at his spot and let him blitz a lot.)

This is another option, he played LB in SF so there wouldn't be a learning curve, but the MLB spot would still be un-addressed

fredp45 wrote:3) Rogers is having a bad year -- not that suprising. Many players don't play well their sophmore year. There are plenty of examples.

Agreed the second year has been a bad year for a lot of good/great players.

fredp45 wrote:4) Springs being hurt to start the year really hurt us. Wright is a 3rd CB, not a starter.

Same can be said for Rumph, but they both got major playing time when SS was out. Springs and Rogers both sat out one game

fredp45 wrote:5) When Griffin doesn't play -- we lose. He's missed some games.

True but down the road the playing time will payoff for the rookies

fredp45 wrote:6) AA -- I'm the lone voice here. When the front 7 is NOT stopping the run the back 4 will get burned on the pass. I played CB as a kid and when you don't trust your front 7 on running plays, you always keep one eye on that and before you know it -- your toast. AA made a lot of tackles when he played. He was having to make the tackle 10 yards down field. Any idea how steam a RB/FB has after running 12 yards and barely slowed by the front 7? If we had a good pass rush and our backers are playing their position at a higher level, AA would be a super player on the field. He's smart, tough, good run stopper, etc...he is NOT a cover guy and when the line is NOT getting any pressure, our back 4 will look crappy, even if we had all-pro's back there. The quality of your back 4 is directly related to your ability to get some pass rush. Give a pro Qb the time we've given them and no one can cover that long.

I'm not touching that one... didn't you know AA is the highest paid player on earth and he wasn't brought in to make tackles. He was brought in to be a upgrade over Ryan Clark and be Sean Taylor's best friend and tell everybody where to be and what to do. It doesn't matter that he's not doing all of that because his money was guaranteed

fredp45 wrote:7) Salavae is not that good. We need a quality NFL DT to replace him.

Another one playing hurt all year

fredp45 wrote:Williams is not the problem...

William isn't playing on the left side of the D

6.5 out 7 WOW

We never seem to agree? I never noticed...tell me more.

3) Rogers is having a bad year -- not that suprising. Many players don't play well their sophmore year. There are plenty of examples.

I don't think that it's a sophmore slump. I think that he just isn't a very good player. Everybody likes to talk about his big hits and his tackling, but as a corner his primary role is to cover. And Rogers does just about everything wrong in coverage that a corner could do. His technique is poor, his speed is below average for the position, he can't catch at all, and his attitude (based on the tampa game and post game comments) isn't the best. On top of that he fails to look back at the ball on deep passing plays (usually because he is desperately trying to catch up to the receiver) and as a result receivers are able to catch balls that he should've batted away or they draw pass interference penalties on him. To top it all off, he seems more than willing to celebrate a play even if he had nothing to do with making the stop (receiver drops a catchable ball). Not sure how many people noticed this, but during the Tampa game, on Becht's td catch, Rogers began celebrating while the ball was still in the air because he thought that the play was over. It wasn't. Could he have stopped the td? I don't know. Should he have tried instead of celebrating? Absolutely.

Hopefully this is just a sohpmore slump, but imo it isn't. I still don't understand why we drafted Rogers in the top 10 instead of taking a guy like Merriman. To take a 3rd corner in the top 10 of a draft when the other 2 (Rolle and Pac Man) arent that good to begin with just seems like a waste. The corners coming out this year that could go in the top of the draft are much better than the 2005 group imo.

fredp45 wrote:Pulp --

No comment or reaction to #6 Re. AA?

Does that mean you think I'm nuts and you were speechless?

Not at all. I personally think AA was put in a position where he could do nothing but fail. He was put in a position of coverage, and that's never, ever, been his strong suit. This is a bad situation, made worse by Williams' intrasigence. I don't see how anything good will come from this.

I honestly think they were thinking he'd be a 2 down safety, with the third down cover position manned by Pierson. Do I think it's smart to sign a 2 down safety to as big a contract as he got? No, but I don't sign the contracts for the Redskins.

And you're right in that the longer the QB has, the more breakdowns in coverage there will be.

Passrush and coverage go hand in hand. We seem to have neither.