The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

PulpExposure wrote:

roybus14 wrote: L.T. but the coaching staff here didn't recognize it and it ruined him. Teams are drafting LBs now to be pass rushers. The Ravens (Suggs), Colts (Freeney), Cowboys (Ware), Chargers (Merriman), Jets (Abrahams) just to name a few who have rurned LBs into successful pass rushers.

Freeney has always been a DE. In college, and in the pro's. He's slightly undersized, but that's the position he plays.

And every other person on that list you mentioned, plays in a 3-4 defense. Think that's a coincidence?

So, now you're advocating the Redskins trash their entire defensive line scheme (because now you have to go get a nose tackle and big defensive ends), and linebackers (time to get another inside backer), in addition to the stud pass rushing linebacker who I am sure is incredibly easy to pick up?

What did we do when Lavar had 12 sacks? Also, this is not about trashing a defensive line, this is about the continued problem that this organization has had in evaluating talent. Pull up Lavar's Penn State tapes. You will see that most of the big plays he made were in the backfield either sacking the QB or stuffing the run. Not in coverage or playing the traditional linebacker role. They drafted this guy high, like the Giants did L.T. but they failed to build their defense around him like the Giants did L.T. So that is where the failure is. Again, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You are also missing the point about developing talent as well. Lavar was their chance to also develop his talent and make him the next L.T. but they failed to do that because they were too busy going after has-beens.

air_hog wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Letting go of Lavar was the biggest mistake ever. We should have paid him what he deserves. Ever since his departure our D dosent have that same spark. Taylor and Washington have been solid but we still need a beast on the outside. Our corners are solid still but it just seems like there is something missing on D. I know you guys all can see it as well. We must either get him back. Or draft for another beast like Lavar or someone like Shawn Merriman. A stud outside backer pressuring the Qb all day and night. Opposite side Washington would really bring our D back to how it was last year. This should be number one priority in the offseason. This would really take our D to the next level. Maybe Mcintosh can pan out but we will see.

I know, he would totally be the best player on our Injury Reserve List!

But I actually belive our biggest mistake was letting not only Ryan Clark walk, but also letting Omar Stoutmire walk. Both those guys played with so much passsion and energy, not to mention they played their roles so well.

But maybe the most underated guy we let go that no one has been talking about is Bill Musgrave.

Let's see, Brunell Pre-Musgrave = terrible : Brunell Pro-Musgrave = Pro Bowl numbers/playoff bound : Brunell Post-Musgrave = terrible...

I know our Front Office gets ripped for letting key role guys walk and sign big name free agents instead, but now that I realize it, we do the same thing with coaches.

Ryan Clark! Please this guy was average at best. He was covered up by the talent around him. Pierce? He isnt half the player Lavar is. IF Lavar was utilized the way he is supposed to be he would thrive in any system. Its because we had bonehead D corodinators make him drop back in coverage! Idiotic why are you gonna drop back a guy who can get to the quarterback consistently makes no sense. If he rushed the Qb three out of four downs he would create a nightmare for the opposing teams. Take a look at Merriman they blitz him half the time and there D is one of the Best. Ryan Clark this guy was just average please what a Joke. If Ryan Clark was here your telling me this D would be the same as last year. Uh huh I didnt think so. My main point is we cant make a mistake like letting Lavar go happen again. We need to fill that void and get a beast at the Outside Linebacker spot to play a role like Lawrence Taylor or that may be asking for too much but I know if he had a beast rushing from the outside it makes things alot easier on our Defense. No 1 Priority must be search far and wide for a Qb hunting terminator trade two picks if we have to.

roybus14 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Letting go of Lavar was the biggest mistake ever. We should have paid him what he deserves. Ever since his departure our D dosent have that same spark. Taylor and Washington have been solid but we still need a beast on the outside. Our corners are solid still but it just seems like there is something missing on D. I know you guys all can see it as well. We must either get him back. Or draft for another beast like Lavar or someone like Shawn Merriman. A stud outside backer pressuring the Qb all day and night. Opposite side Washington would really bring our D back to how it was last year. This should be number one priority in the offseason. This would really take our D to the next level. Maybe Mcintosh can pan out but we will see.

Yeah, we get rid of LaVar and then get guys who are out of place and give up big plays. No, wait, that WAS LaVar. But he had a good attitude! No wait, "wahhhhh, I want another bonus, boo hooo."

We are so much better off w/o him.

I agree that Lavar was out of place sometimes but I think that all of the coaches here except Marvin Lewis for one year, missed the boat on how to use Lavar effectively. I will beat this drum about Lavar everytime he comes on this board. Our team, the Redskins, should have used and developed this guy at what he was best at at Penn State. Rushing the QB.

IMO he was the next coming of L.T. but the coaching staff here didn't recognize it and it ruined him. Teams are drafting LBs now to be pass rushers. The Ravens (Suggs), Colts (Freeney), Cowboys (Ware), Chargers (Merriman), Jets (Abrahams) just to name a few who have rurned LBs into successful pass rushers. And if you really look at Jason Taylor, KGB, and Kearse, they are really tall LBs playing DE. Look at what Strahan has done to his body. He's lost weight and cut up to become a speed rushing DE. He could actually play LB now. Parcells turned Ellis into a Hybrid DE-LB before he tore his achilles.

Exactamundo! It was a failure to see the raw talent he possesed. Now we have to get someone out of college who can do similar things.

roybus14 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

roybus14 wrote: L.T. but the coaching staff here didn't recognize it and it ruined him. Teams are drafting LBs now to be pass rushers. The Ravens (Suggs), Colts (Freeney), Cowboys (Ware), Chargers (Merriman), Jets (Abrahams) just to name a few who have rurned LBs into successful pass rushers.

Freeney has always been a DE. In college, and in the pro's. He's slightly undersized, but that's the position he plays.

And every other person on that list you mentioned, plays in a 3-4 defense. Think that's a coincidence?

So, now you're advocating the Redskins trash their entire defensive line scheme (because now you have to go get a nose tackle and big defensive ends), and linebackers (time to get another inside backer), in addition to the stud pass rushing linebacker who I am sure is incredibly easy to pick up?

What did we do when Lavar had 12 sacks? Also, this is not about trashing a defensive line, this is about the continued problem that this organization has had in evaluating talent. Pull up Lavar's Penn State tapes. You will see that most of the big plays he made were in the backfield either sacking the QB or stuffing the run. Not in coverage or playing the traditional linebacker role. They drafted this guy high, like the Giants did L.T. but they failed to build their defense around him like the Giants did L.T. So that is where the failure is. Again, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You are also missing the point about developing talent as well. Lavar was their chance to also develop his talent and make him the next L.T. but they failed to do that because they were too busy going after has-beens.

It's beyond me why people continue to romanticize LA's time as a Redskin.
Good guy? Pretty much, though the past few years brought that into question
Big plays? Sure
Consistency and discipline? No and no ... look at what was, arguably, his best season as a Redskin in 2002 when he had 92 tackles and 11 sacks. His sacks were impressive, sure, but he was tied for ninth in that category with two other players and he didn't even crack the top 40 in total tackles, a stat dominated by linebackers.
I appreciate the enthusisam he brought and the big plays, the pick versus Carolina and the hit on Aikman but the guy was never a top-flight player and we should stop pretending he was.

HEROHAMO wrote:

air_hog wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Letting go of Lavar was the biggest mistake ever. We should have paid him what he deserves. Ever since his departure our D dosent have that same spark. Taylor and Washington have been solid but we still need a beast on the outside. Our corners are solid still but it just seems like there is something missing on D. I know you guys all can see it as well. We must either get him back. Or draft for another beast like Lavar or someone like Shawn Merriman. A stud outside backer pressuring the Qb all day and night. Opposite side Washington would really bring our D back to how it was last year. This should be number one priority in the offseason. This would really take our D to the next level. Maybe Mcintosh can pan out but we will see.

I know, he would totally be the best player on our Injury Reserve List!

But I actually belive our biggest mistake was letting not only Ryan Clark walk, but also letting Omar Stoutmire walk. Both those guys played with so much passsion and energy, not to mention they played their roles so well.

But maybe the most underated guy we let go that no one has been talking about is Bill Musgrave.

Let's see, Brunell Pre-Musgrave = terrible : Brunell Pro-Musgrave = Pro Bowl numbers/playoff bound : Brunell Post-Musgrave = terrible...

I know our Front Office gets ripped for letting key role guys walk and sign big name free agents instead, but now that I realize it, we do the same thing with coaches.

Ryan Clark! Please this guy was average at best. He was covered up by the talent around him. Pierce? He isnt half the player Lavar is. IF Lavar was utilized the way he is supposed to be he would thrive in any system. Its because we had bonehead D corodinators make him drop back in coverage! Idiotic why are you gonna drop back a guy who can get to the quarterback consistently makes no sense. If he rushed the Qb three out of four downs he would create a nightmare for the opposing teams. Take a look at Merriman they blitz him half the time and there D is one of the Best. Ryan Clark this guy was just average please what a Joke. If Ryan Clark was here your telling me this D would be the same as last year. Uh huh I didnt think so. My main point is we cant make a mistake like letting Lavar go happen again. We need to fill that void and get a beast at the Outside Linebacker spot to play a role like Lawrence Taylor or that may be asking for too much but I know if he had a beast rushing from the outside it makes things alot easier on our Defense. No 1 Priority must be search far and wide for a Qb hunting terminator trade two picks if we have to.

Exactly, you made my point.

Ryan Clark was just average in talent, and that's all we needed. He might not have had the most talent, especially with all the stars we already have on D, but he knew his role. He knew where he had to be and he was great in the locker room.

But instead we go the "Redskin Way" in the offseason and since Clark is only mediocre, we step it up and sign Pro Bowler Adam Archuleta.

And as for LaVar, sure he probably wasn't used right, but get playing time depending on how you practice. And since LaVar seemed to have his own style of play, not to mention he never practiced since he was hurt, he never got to play.

And now he's not playing for New York, because guess what? He's injured.

I can think of 5 defensive players we have let go that we shouldnt have before lavar. He is so finished its not even funny. How does this keep coming up week after week?? Look how productive Lavar has been in NY this year. He would be doing the same for us.

HailSkins94 wrote:I can think of 5 defensive players we have let go that we shouldnt have before lavar. He is so finished its not even funny. How does this keep coming up week after week?? Looks how productive Lavar has been in NY this year. He would be doing the same for us.

I assume that's a joke

The Redskins have made a lot of mistakes, and keeping Lavar would have been another one. I really don't see the obsession with the guy.

Fios wrote:It's beyond me why people continue to romanticize LA's time as a Redskin.
Good guy? Pretty much, though the past few years brought that into question
Big plays? Sure
Consistency and discipline? No and no ... look at what was, arguably, his best season as a Redskin in 2002 when he had 92 tackles and 11 sacks. His sacks were impressive, sure, but he was tied for ninth in that category with two other players and he didn't even crack the top 40 in total tackles, a stat dominated by linebackers.
I appreciate the enthusisam he brought and the big plays, the pick versus Carolina and the hit on Aikman but the guy was never a top-flight player and we should stop pretending he was.

Yes, I am quoting myself

roybus14 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:Yeah, we get rid of LaVar and then get guys who are out of place and give up big plays. No, wait, that WAS LaVar. But he had a good attitude! No wait, "wahhhhh, I want another bonus, boo hooo."

We are so much better off w/o him.

I agree that Lavar was out of place sometimes but I think that all of the coaches here except Marvin Lewis for one year, missed the boat on how to use Lavar effectively. I will beat this drum about Lavar everytime he comes on this board. Our team, the Redskins, should have used and developed this guy at what he was best at at Penn State. Rushing the QB.

IMO he was the next coming of L.T. but the coaching staff here didn't recognize it and it ruined him. Teams are drafting LBs now to be pass rushers. The Ravens (Suggs), Colts (Freeney), Cowboys (Ware), Chargers (Merriman), Jets (Abrahams) just to name a few who have rurned LBs into successful pass rushers. And if you really look at Jason Taylor, KGB, and Kearse, they are really tall LBs playing DE. Look at what Strahan has done to his body. He's lost weight and cut up to become a speed rushing DE. He could actually play LB now. Parcells turned Ellis into a Hybrid DE-LB before he tore his achilles.

It's certainly a matter of opinion and it's debatable, I can't say you are wrong, just that I disagree. I do not think he was in the same league as a player as LT. I live in the NY area and I have not heard LaVar's been that great here either (for what he's paid).

Interestingly a Penn State alum friend of mine who is not a Skins fan when I celebrated drafting him told me we made a mistake taking him that high because he would make a few highlight reel plays, but for each one he would be out of position several times and he would give us lots of just flat out stupid penalities. He said he is not disciplined and would not be in the NFL either.

I was skeptical at the time but when he went to the Giants and gave us cap space back to do it I was so happy. I remembered what he said and thought, "he nailed it, that's exactly what I think now."

I was also offended at the ENDLESS bonus issue. I don't know what happened, but it wasn't in the contract and he never stopped dragging that petty beef up. He kept saying it wouldn't affect him, but it clearly did. He needs to grow up, both on and off the field.

HEROHAMO wrote:

roybus14 wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Letting go of Lavar was the biggest mistake ever. We should have paid him what he deserves. Ever since his departure our D dosent have that same spark. Taylor and Washington have been solid but we still need a beast on the outside. Our corners are solid still but it just seems like there is something missing on D. I know you guys all can see it as well. We must either get him back. Or draft for another beast like Lavar or someone like Shawn Merriman. A stud outside backer pressuring the Qb all day and night. Opposite side Washington would really bring our D back to how it was last year. This should be number one priority in the offseason. This would really take our D to the next level. Maybe Mcintosh can pan out but we will see.

Yeah, we get rid of LaVar and then get guys who are out of place and give up big plays. No, wait, that WAS LaVar. But he had a good attitude! No wait, "wahhhhh, I want another bonus, boo hooo."

We are so much better off w/o him.

I agree that Lavar was out of place sometimes but I think that all of the coaches here except Marvin Lewis for one year, missed the boat on how to use Lavar effectively. I will beat this drum about Lavar everytime he comes on this board. Our team, the Redskins, should have used and developed this guy at what he was best at at Penn State. Rushing the QB.

IMO he was the next coming of L.T. but the coaching staff here didn't recognize it and it ruined him. Teams are drafting LBs now to be pass rushers. The Ravens (Suggs), Colts (Freeney), Cowboys (Ware), Chargers (Merriman), Jets (Abrahams) just to name a few who have rurned LBs into successful pass rushers. And if you really look at Jason Taylor, KGB, and Kearse, they are really tall LBs playing DE. Look at what Strahan has done to his body. He's lost weight and cut up to become a speed rushing DE. He could actually play LB now. Parcells turned Ellis into a Hybrid DE-LB before he tore his achilles.

Exactamundo! It was a failure to see the raw talent he possesed. Now we have to get someone out of college who can do similar things.

That's the problem, his talent was raw. I do agree he had a lot of talent, but it was staying raw.

roybus14 wrote:[Pull up Lavar's Penn State tapes.

And this is where you lose your credibility. I mean hell, pull up your Health Shuler college tapes. We misused him!

Like Fios said, LaVar never developed the way he should have. He had talent, but I always get the feeling he was football-dumb. You can do a lot with pure raw talent in college, but you can't get away with that in the pro's (Michael Westbrook anyone?).

You can say he kept switching defensive coordinators, and that retarded his development, but personally I think that's a crap media excuse. To use one of our own old players as an example, Champ Bailey went through a billion defcos and still turned out to be a great player. Plenty of players have to go through new coaching staff on a regular basis. Chris McAlister and the rest of the Ravens went from Marvin Lewis, to Mike Nolan, to Rex Ryan within the space of 4 years, and they've turned out okay. All free agents have to adopt to new defcos.

Development isn't just the coaching staff's responsibility, it's also the player's will to work. And in my opinion, LaVar never felt he had to work at it. Seeing himself on ESPN highlights as early as his rookie season, smearing people with big hits (but not shown on the highlight shows were his missed assignments and missed tackles) probably convinced him that he had arrived and didn't need to work as hard anymore.

Oh and I didn't "miss" your point about developing talent. I just don't happen to disagree with you on it. We definately don't develop talent here, and it's gotten worse in the past few years as we've had less and less draft picks to develop.

We can debate all day about Lavar and there are some things that I think we all can agree on and some things we don't. But the bottom-line is this team's inability to sustain and cultivate talent.

A real GM would be a start and maybe some "humble pie" for the arrogant Defensive Coaching staff.

Pulp, Kazoo, Heramo, let me ask you guys this:

Are the Defensive Coaches so worried about their "schemes" instead of being coaches? It looks like this team has regressed in terms of the basic fundamentals in playing defense. I know the players are at fault too on that but do you guys think that it is the coaches too????

roybus14 wrote:We can debate all day about Lavar and there are some things that I think we all can agree on and some things we don't. But the bottom-line is this team's inability to sustain and cultivate talent.

A real GM would be a start and maybe some "humble pie" for the arrogant Defensive Coaching staff.

Pulp, Kazoo, Heramo, let me ask you guys this:

Are the Defensive Coaches so worried about their "schemes" instead of being coaches? It looks like this team has regressed in terms of the basic fundamentals in playing defense. I know the players are at fault too on that but do you guys think that it is the coaches too????

I don't buy into and you don't support these statements.

- The coaching staff is arrogant

- The Defensive Coaches are worried about their "schemes" instead of being coaches

I do agree the D has regressed this year, but given GW's overall success here and elsewhere I think you are over bashing him for one year. Though I agree it's both the coaches and the players including GW. There have been some key injuries though. I consider it to be more staffing than fundamentals. Here we go in the spring w/ another round of free agency. I actually think we need to tweek and jel, not go for another round of big roster changes.

- Secondary - Poor decision: we played most of the season with two starting safties soft on pass coverage. Particularly painful with Prealeau and Springs hurt too.

- D Line - Poor decision: AC has been OK, but the plan was for him to be a force. Hasn't happened. We still have a mediocre DT paring with Griffen. And we were really in trouble when he missed a few games. I applaud Golston's effort, but he's not a force, at least not right now.

- Linebacker. While I was happy to dump LaVar, we have been playing mediocre backups with an heir apparent rookie to replace him. We also are still hurting from losing Pierce, a far bigger loss then LA. LB probably didn't kill us, but it hurts more given the other issues.

I was initially bitter when LA left, but, thinking back to what a whiny little b***h he was it really didn't bother me. Like a lot of you, I was far more ditressed at seeing Pierce and Clark go.

Personally, I think the biggest offseason mistake that has so far come back to haunt this team was bringing in Al Saunders and expecting him to work miracles. Don't know why (to this point anyway) Randle-El and Lloyd haven't been more involved in the offensive game plans.

Skins1A wrote:I was initially bitter when LA left, but, thinking back to what a whiny little b***h he was it really didn't bother me. Like a lot of you, I was far more ditressed at seeing Pierce and Clark go.

Personally, I think the biggest offseason mistake that has so far come back to haunt this team was bringing in Al Saunders and expecting him to work miracles. Don't know why (to this point anyway) Randle-El and Lloyd haven't been more involved in the offensive game plans.

No disagreement, but give Saunders some more time and a chance to play with a QB who doesn' suck.

roybus14 wrote:Are the Defensive Coaches so worried about their "schemes" instead of being coaches? It looks like this team has regressed in terms of the basic fundamentals in playing defense. I know the players are at fault too on that but do you guys think that it is the coaches too????

Maybe I've noticed it a lot more this year, but it seems we're playing a lot more Cover 2 this year than before. IIRC we used to play man coverage with the corners, but they're in zone a lot now.

New scheme for Williams? Or did I just not notice the Cover 2 before?