The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Well we all hope in the long run that this year will serve if nothing else as a reminder how fast a team that came so close last year can fall flat on it's face when serious needs are not addressed. Perhaps this year will serve as some type of reminder to the defensive staff that NO not any player can be plugged in and can do the job, and that they should remain humble. I think this defense and the defensive coaches started believeing their own hype. I think that Greg Williams needs to go after a serious cover safety and perhaps a few "upgrades" at the cornerback position and a REAL legitimate pass rusher. I hope if we address anything on the offensive side of the ball it will be trading both Samuels and Jansen and getting some serious blue collar players that have a nasty mean streak, I also hope that Boonell goes back to Jacksonville and retires a JAGUAR! not a Redskin. I doubt this will happen although I can still dream. I also hope that Gibbs allows Al Saunders to really run this offense and allows him to choose whom Al wants to start and not hand picked players that Gibbs decides. I say that because he has done a terrible job allowing Boonell to continue to start and not even have the common sense to see what if anything some injection of youth would do to spark this team.

I remember the good wrote:

I understand that absolutely. I love Gibbs just as much as the rest of you. We respect him and he shows respect to us in return. My only contention with Gibbs is that he tends to be a little too loyal to guys that he sees eye-to-eye with. In particular, we all know both Gibbs and Brunell are big time Christians. Brunell started a church in Jacksonville with Tony Boselli. I know Gibbs thinks the world of Brunell as a person, which I fear introduces a bias into his judgement regarding team management. What do you think of this theory?[/quote]

I do think that this argument is worth a closer look, I looked back at some information and if memory serves me correctly a main reason why Brunell was basically kicked out of Jacksonville was due to his "overwhelming" manner in which he was forcing religion on teammates. I think that being religious is a great thing but you can't force in on anyone. I think that Gibbs being a religious type and Mark being the same way, then you add in that medical issue Gibbs had when he went to talk to Brunell equals an undying loyalty to Brunell. Even though the medical issue was basically swept under the rug, I hear it was a serious incident and had Brunell not gotten Gibbs to the hospital as he did Gibbs might be dead right now. I don't know how much credibility to put into that theory but for me I have never EVER seen Gibbs so loyal to one player that has been AVERAGE at best. It's time for Gibbs and Brunell to admit he doesn't have it anymore and even though his mind might be quick, his physical tools are highly erroded to the point that he is handicapping this team. [/quote]

No, Brunell was benched in Jacksonville because he hurt his elbow. Jack Del Rio was in his first or second year as coach, and he put "his guy" in, who was and is Leftwich. He never started Brunell again. You're thinking of Kurt Warner, who was run out of St. Louis because he was thumping the Bible too hard. Anyway, I always presumed that Gibbs' loyalty to Brunell was due to the Christian connection. I just wish that all of our prayers would be answered and the Skins would win more. I don't care who is QB.

NikiH wrote:For all we know Jason Campbell could get in there and be 10 times worse then Mark Brunnell. I'm not saying that is going to happen, I'm just saying that it is a distinct possibility that in 2 to 3 games people would start calling for his head as well.

The difference here (not that I need to tell you) is that JC is young, so I would view the mistakes he makes a being correctable. MB on the other hand, makes mistakes (such as not viewing the entire field) that, given his age, should not be made. So, my view would be that the same mistake made by both JC and MB is acceptable for JC, but not for MB. JC has the potential to correct that mistake, whereas potential for MB, at this stage of his career, is about as abundant as the cartilage in his knees.

With that in mind, my guess would be that the fans would give JC a bit more lattitude than they have for MB.

joebagadonuts wrote:

NikiH wrote:For all we know Jason Campbell could get in there and be 10 times worse then Mark Brunnell. I'm not saying that is going to happen, I'm just saying that it is a distinct possibility that in 2 to 3 games people would start calling for his head as well.

The difference here (not that I need to tell you) is that JC is young, so I would view the mistakes he makes a being correctable. MB on the other hand, makes mistakes (such as not viewing the entire field) that, given his age, should not be made. So, my view would be that the same mistake made by both JC and MB is acceptable for JC, but not for MB. JC has the potential to correct that mistake, whereas potential for MB, at this stage of his career, is about as abundant as the cartilage in his knees.

With that in mind, my guess would be that the fans would give JC a bit more lattitude than they have for MB.

I think Mark has a larger learning curve than anyone thought coming into this new scheme, the question is would Jason make the same mistake or would his actions be worst.

Philly is an Armpit wrote:I think you're right Niki. Brunell was part of our run last year. However, it's his performance this year that's concerning me. He threw deep to Moss plentylast season, and now with two deep threats, he can't get the ball there any more. I'm afraid his arm is shot and noone's admitting it. Brunell's a good guy and I like him, but he's not a starting-caliber quarterback in the NFL anymore. We need to think about the future now and Cambell, for better or for worse, is our investment towards that end. We need to develop him and see if we can go with him or go out and get someone else. The sooner we figure that out, the sooner we can start hoping for another playoff run.

Philly is an armpit back in the house. It's been quite a while man... welcome back. Still one of the best user names in the history of the board.

skinsfan#33 wrote:[I'm with you! I wish #8 could play as well as BJ. Now BJ will toss a lot short too, but when the moment is rigth he knows how to and can take it deep.

Heh, when Brad was our QB, a lot of the fans hated him as well saying, for example, he didn't have the arm to play QB. In fact, most of the stuff being said about Brunell now you could just change the name to BJ and you'd see exactly what was said when BJ was the QB for us. I think it's just a matter of fans always thinking the grass is always greener on the other side...

Mark Brunell is no Brad Johnson.


Brad is good enough, smart enough and people like him


Mark is not good enough, he's smart enough but doesn't perform like it

and dog gone it, only Gibbs likes him.

Gibbs4Life wrote:Mark Brunell is no Brad Johnson.


Brad is good enough, smart enough and people like him


Mark is not good enough, he's smart enough but doesn't perform like it

and dog gone it, only Gibbs likes him.

Wow I bet a Bucs fan would not agree. He got chased out of Tampa and now look what he is doing in Minnesota. Just goes to show that fans don't know everything and neither do all coaches.

I admire Gibbs and his loyalty, but the explanation for Mark Brunell is that he's just too old.

The Mark Brunell who lead the Jags to the AFC Championship could probably lead this team to a Superbowl...but the Mark Brunell who wears more body armor than Robo-Cop that we all love to hate just can't do it.

1niksder wrote:

joebagadonuts wrote:

NikiH wrote:For all we know Jason Campbell could get in there and be 10 times worse then Mark Brunnell. I'm not saying that is going to happen, I'm just saying that it is a distinct possibility that in 2 to 3 games people would start calling for his head as well.

The difference here (not that I need to tell you) is that JC is young, so I would view the mistakes he makes a being correctable. MB on the other hand, makes mistakes (such as not viewing the entire field) that, given his age, should not be made. So, my view would be that the same mistake made by both JC and MB is acceptable for JC, but not for MB. JC has the potential to correct that mistake, whereas potential for MB, at this stage of his career, is about as abundant as the cartilage in his knees.

With that in mind, my guess would be that the fans would give JC a bit more lattitude than they have for MB.

I think Mark has a larger learning curve than anyone thought coming into this new scheme, the question is would Jason make the same mistake or would his actions be worst.

Maybe his actions would be better? Why assume only the negative?

I don't buy the 'learning curve' excuse, although that might explain why he's taking forever to scan the field and tends to go with the check-down guy so much. I question whether Brunell still has the arm to make the deeper throws. And speaking of Brad Johnson, he's learning a new system too (since new head coach Brad Childress brought in a new offense), and he's still performing fine for the most part.

Of course, if the new scheme really is that complex, why are we wasting time having Mark learn it - does that mean he'll be the starter next year too, when he's finally mastered it? Or will we go through yet another rebuilding year next year while we wait for JC to get a grasp on the offense? If so, why'd we start Brunell this year? None of this is making much sense.

nnskinsfan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:[I'm with you! I wish #8 could play as well as BJ. Now BJ will toss a lot short too, but when the moment is rigth he knows how to and can take it deep.

Heh, when Brad was our QB, a lot of the fans hated him as well saying, for example, he didn't have the arm to play QB. In fact, most of the stuff being said about Brunell now you could just change the name to BJ and you'd see exactly what was said when BJ was the QB for us. I think it's just a matter of fans always thinking the grass is always greener on the other side...

Mursilis wrote:I don't buy the 'learning curve' excuse, although that might explain why he's taking forever to scan the field and tends to go with the check-down guy so much. I question whether Brunell still has the arm to make the deeper throws. And speaking of Brad Johnson, he's learning a new system too (since new head coach Brad Childress brought in a new offense), and he's still performing fine for the most part.

Of course, if the new scheme really is that complex, why are we wasting time having Mark learn it - does that mean he'll be the starter next year too, when he's finally mastered it? Or will we go through yet another rebuilding year next year while we wait for JC to get a grasp on the offense? If so, why'd we start Brunell this year? None of this is making much sense.

I'm totally with you, I don't buy the 'learning curve' excuse at all. He has had the same problems for 3 years now and they seem to be physical, not mental. I'm sure he's super smart, but what difference does it make if you can't perform?

- He can't consistently throw downfield. Without being able to hit players 10-20 yards downfield you are continually needing to get 10 yards in 3 plays, which is hard to do in the NFL when the D knows it takes 3 well executed plays on every set of downs and can play for that. You need to be able to get first downs in one play without hoping someone breaks a few tackles, at least sometimes.

- He can't hit receivers scrambling. I agree that throwing into coverage is a bad thing and there are times when it's better to throw it away. The problem with Brunell is he has turned throwing it into the seats on a scramble into a virtue. All the great QBs sometimes hit recievers scrambling. I'm not advocating throwing into coverage, I'm advocating there needs to be some balance on scrambling between throwing to a receiver and throwing it away.

- He can't hit receivers on sidelines without his throw forcing them out of bounds. Again, sometimes you have to do that to be sure only the receiver can catch it. But I'm tired of the beautiful toe in catches by Moss and others where he could have just thrown it to them becuase the defender was not that close. Maybe they get forced out right away. But at least they don't need to make an unneccessary toe drag catch.

Again, these seem like he's just getting old and can't perform. If it were the system, it seems like he would have different issues, not the same ones. The system is to get receivers open. Once he has an open receiver, it's physical to throw a catchable ball and he can't do it. How can a system make him throw the ball into the turf in front of an open receiver?

BossHog wrote:

Philly is an Armpit wrote:I think you're right Niki. Brunell was part of our run last year. However, it's his performance this year that's concerning me. He threw deep to Moss plentylast season, and now with two deep threats, he can't get the ball there any more. I'm afraid his arm is shot and noone's admitting it. Brunell's a good guy and I like him, but he's not a starting-caliber quarterback in the NFL anymore. We need to think about the future now and Cambell, for better or for worse, is our investment towards that end. We need to develop him and see if we can go with him or go out and get someone else. The sooner we figure that out, the sooner we can start hoping for another playoff run.

Philly is an armpit back in the house. It's been quite a while man... welcome back. Still one of the best user names in the history of the board.

It's good to be back. Since moving to Baltimore, I miss conversations with true Skins fans. This is still the best site on the web for us.

nnskinsfan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:[I'm with you! I wish #8 could play as well as BJ. Now BJ will toss a lot short too, but when the moment is rigth he knows how to and can take it deep.

Heh, when Brad was our QB, a lot of the fans hated him as well saying, for example, he didn't have the arm to play QB. In fact, most of the stuff being said about Brunell now you could just change the name to BJ and you'd see exactly what was said when BJ was the QB for us. I think it's just a matter of fans always thinking the grass is always greener on the other side...

What you're saying is true, but I was never one of those people. Brad was the best QB we have had around here since Joey T. I think that this team could do better with 25 out of the other 31 staring QBs. And if they had a guy like Brady, they would be undefeated, even with the poor play of the defense. Heck even Mr. Headbutt (Frerotte) himself would have gotten us more wins than #8 and he is a backup. The Dolphins won their last 6 game (the Skins 5) with Frerotte and how many have they won with Culpepper?
Look how much of a difference the Saints new QB has made and how bad the Eagles were last year without McNabb (true the Igles lost a ton of players, but they didn't go south until McNabb went down). The point is, A QB makes a ton of difference. Think of how many SB rings Gibbs would have had if Montana played for the Skins (or heck even Bernie Kosar or Boomer Eisiesen). Gibbs has never had good QB play for more than a year or 2 at a time and it is time to see if Campbell can change that! It won't be this year but if he get 6 or 7 games under his belt next year might be great!

Is Joey T. available?

the bottom line to me is our season's shot and we have a young quarterback who represents the future of our organization.

I'm fimrly against us going out and shopping the free agent market. It isn't a good strategy and has proven ineffective for the Skins. Look at the other teams that drafted and developed their core players, New England in particular. We should look to teams that do that effectively and emulate them.

I remember the good wrote:I do think that this argument is worth a closer look, I looked back at some information and if memory serves me correctly a main reason why Brunell was basically kicked out of Jacksonville was due to his "overwhelming" manner in which he was forcing religion on teammates. I think that being religious is a great thing but you can't force in on anyone. I think that Gibbs being a religious type and Mark being the same way, then you add in that medical issue Gibbs had when he went to talk to Brunell equals an undying loyalty to Brunell. Even though the medical issue was basically swept under the rug, I hear it was a serious incident and had Brunell not gotten Gibbs to the hospital as he did Gibbs might be dead right now. I don't know how much credibility to put into that theory but for me I have never EVER seen Gibbs so loyal to one player that has been AVERAGE at best. It's time for Gibbs and Brunell to admit he doesn't have it anymore and even though his mind might be quick, his physical tools are highly erroded to the point that he is handicapping this team.

I think that this theory is way way way off base. Joe showed the same loyalty to Joe Theisman in 1985.

Even if there is a strong personal bond between Gibbs and Brunell, whether based on their common faith or any other reason, that would not go far. Mark might get the benefit of the doubt at first, maybe a couple of second chances. But that's it.

I think Joe is stubborn as a mule and I think he is making the wrong decision. But to attribute it to a personal faith-based allegiance to Mark is way over the top in my opinion.

Patrick Ramsey was an evangelical Christian too. See how far that got him?

It's been a while since my last post and I hate to throw fuel in the fire but I thought this was pretty funny.

http://www.bangcartoonmedia.com/cartoon ... gfancy.swf

nnskinsfan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:[I'm with you! I wish #8 could play as well as BJ. Now BJ will toss a lot short too, but when the moment is rigth he knows how to and can take it deep.

Heh, when Brad was our QB, a lot of the fans hated him as well saying, for example, he didn't have the arm to play QB. In fact, most of the stuff being said about Brunell now you could just change the name to BJ and you'd see exactly what was said when BJ was the QB for us. I think it's just a matter of fans always thinking the grass is always greener on the other side...

Except that when we signed Johnson, he'd only been in the league 5 years, so, theoretically, he was in his prime. Brunell, on the other hand was signed after 10 years in the league, well past what most folks would consider his best playing days.

Many people on this board are questioning whether MB has the gas left in the tank (be it arms, legs, head, whatever) to be productive.

joebagadonuts wrote:

nnskinsfan wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:[I'm with you! I wish #8 could play as well as BJ. Now BJ will toss a lot short too, but when the moment is rigth he knows how to and can take it deep.

Heh, when Brad was our QB, a lot of the fans hated him as well saying, for example, he didn't have the arm to play QB. In fact, most of the stuff being said about Brunell now you could just change the name to BJ and you'd see exactly what was said when BJ was the QB for us. I think it's just a matter of fans always thinking the grass is always greener on the other side...

Many people on this board are questioning whether MB has the gas left in the tank (be it arms, legs, head, whatever) to be productive.

That is an easy question to answer, the "fuel" has been on for the past 4 or 5 years for Brunell and right now he is running on sludge and fumes.

The only team in the NFL Brunell should be starting for is the Raiders.

The only team in the NFL Brunell should be starting for is the Raiders.

I don't even think that the Raiders would want him. Walters might be struggling but atleast he is a young guy that has a chance to develop.

SkinzCanes wrote:

The only team in the NFL Brunell should be starting for is the Raiders.

I don't even think that the Raiders would want him. Walters might be struggling but atleast he is a young guy that has a chance to develop.

I think the reference was not to current Raider needs but their having a history of taking players considered past their prime and frequently being successful with them. I say we give them a shot with Brunell, the sooner the better.