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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:49 pm
by RayNAustin
I've been a fan for 40 years. And I've stuck with em through a lot of adversity.....a lot of bad years. But there is no excuse for such a pathetic performance from group of under achievers.....including players and coaches.
What's the problem? A better question is what's not a problem for this pathetic group? Gibbs has not produced any consistency with the offense in 3 years, while watching Williams turn a talented defense into a laughing stock over that same period. The personnel moves...especially on defense have proven detrimental, and that blame rests with Gibbs.
What's missing you ask? All the players that Williams didn't think his almighty defensive system needed over the past two years....Pierce, Arrington, Harris, Bowman, Clark....and all of his replacements that are leaving such a foul stench on every field they've played on this year.
What does the defense need? We need a coordinator that understands that it is players and not systems that play defense, and someone who can find a way to use a 3 time pro bowl LB, instead of using him as a bench ornament. Maybe someone who can recognize the talent they have instead of replacing good players with poor ones? They need to move Taylor to strong safety or linebacker....he's a hitter, but not great in coverage. He's a bad fit for a free safety. Right now we have ZERO safety help in coverage. Hire just about anyone to replace this total bust... Archuleta. A strong safety that can't tackle? Please! Also, get a middle linebacker that can stop the run, and a weak side linebacker that can do anything at all besides being blocked. A corner that can cover somebody would be nice. Also, a DE that can rush the passer. Most of those guys were here when Williams came in, but he thought it was him and not the players that were 3rd in the NFL in 2004...that's why he let most of them go. For that, he deserves to be fired.
On offense, I see a lot of personnel moves that haven't paid any returns either. Patton....Lloyde....Duckett...Fauria..Campbell.....though the jury is still out on Saunders......maybe Campbell will be the guy who can guide this offense. I think it's time to see if Campbell was a good move or just another bust. Right now, there is little to lose by putting him in.
If the coaches continue to lose without making some moves, then there is little else to do but make changes there first.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:52 pm
by die cowboys die
Chris Luva Luva wrote:I heard the end of the game while in the car...
Its time to put Jason Campbell in. But its not going to happen. We have to lose at least 2 more games before Brunell gets in. The problem is this, the team will win a game buy Brunell an extra 2-3 games.
Its obvious that the fans are pretty down. This forum is dead right now, I dont think most people even feel like posting the same stuff over and over again.
agreed on all counts.
what we have to do as fans is take matters into our own hands. every single fan in that stadium needs to boo as loudly as possible every second brunell remains on the field, on every play of every game until gibbs finally gives in and yanks him (like he did against cincy in '04).
it is absolutely pathetic for the fans to have to try to find a way to correct the incomprehensible mistakes of a multi-million dollar coaching staff, but for the 2nd time in 3 seasons we are left with no choice.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:53 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Although I disagree with many of your points, I do agree that personel management is terrible with this team. We've had some success stories but the negative outweighs the positive by a mile.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:01 pm
by John Manfreda
forget about it
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 pm
by die cowboys die
admin wrote:in my opinion, bailing on the running game is causing this team huge problems offensively. You'd think that if your quarterback was struggling that you would go to Clinton Portis and put him in a position to win games for you. But they haven't done it yet... and they bailed on the run again today... maybe having Campbell in at qb helps get more run plays called to let him 'ease in'.
boss, on many levels i agree with you. but as i watched the game, i saw us doing all the different runs with different players and underneath passing stuff which was doing great. then, the titans caught on and adjusted their defense to cover all of that. it was the quintessential "Gibbsian" gameplan-- work it short til they move up, and it should be open to throw it over their head for the big downfield TD.
this is exactly how it worked. once TN moved up, moss and others were getting open deep consistently. this should have been the period where we hit a couple big plays and put the game away, but brunell consistently underthrew the ball and only hit one of those deep passes.
so i think the gameplan is sound, just not for the QB that was in the game. maybe he should've adjusted it, but part of me wonders if he's thinking "i just need to call what SHOULD be called, and if brunell can't get it done he'll have to step aside".
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:17 pm
by old-timer
Is it okay to panic yet?
I've been saying since the preseason that this team has serious problems, now it's obvious to all.
Brunell is too old and too slow. This was obvious last year. Many, many of the passes that Moss caught were underthrown. How could anyone not see that? Having watched the skins for years, on some plays the direction is very obvious to me, imagine how obvious it is to a good LB. Today on many plays he looked simply befuddled; his reflexes and his decision making are shot. Every opposing coach must see it as a gift from heaven when Gibbs starts him.
This team has some great players -
ey, Randle El, Moss, Portis - but Brunell is and has been a big problem since last year and the fact that Gibbs can't see it is perhaps the worst thing of all.
I have no evidence for it, but half the league must be laughing a the Skins coaching staff for leaving Brunell in so long. Three games ago John Madden publicly questioned the idea of starting Brunell. It's so clearly illogical that there must be some unkown good reason behind it.
The defensive collapse is one of the hardest things to understand. I think we'll improve as Springs gets back to playing shape though. The question is will it all be moot by then because of the QB screwup?
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:27 pm
by die cowboys die
i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:30 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
old-timer wrote:It's so clearly illogical that there must be some unknown good reason behind it.
Does there? Gibbs has stuck with veteran quarterbacks playing much worse for a much longer period of time. Brunell in 2004 and Joe Theismann in 1985 immediately come to mind:
Code: Select all
GP CMP% YRDS TD/IN QBRT
2004 Brunell 9 49.8 1194 7/6 63.9
1985 Theismann 11 55.5 1774 8/16 59.6
2005 Brunell 6 61.8 1239 5/3 86.4
Again, I would start Campbell, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
EDIT: And while I think Gibbs sometimes mis-manages the quarterback position, calling for his job is pretty ridiculous. You lose all credibility in my book.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:35 pm
by skinzrule
time to get rid of gibbs and rebuild. Gibbs has neither the time nor the patience to did it.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:35 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
die cowboys die wrote:i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Fire Gibbs? And who shall take his place? Firing Gibbs just places this team into more turmoil. You've loss so much credibility.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:38 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
skinzrule wrote:time to get rid of gibbs and rebuild. Gibbs has neither the time nor the patience to did it.
Give me one reason why this team wouldn't be able to contend for a Super Bowl in 2008.
Two and a half years is a long, long time in the NFL.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:39 pm
by die cowboys die
Steve Spurrier III wrote:EDIT: And while I think Gibbs sometimes mis-manages the quarterback position, calling for his job is pretty ridiculous. You lose all credibility in my book.
and in my opinion, anyone who witnesses what we saw today and still elects to start brunell should not only be nowhere near a coach's headset, but probably belongs in a mental institution. and i mean that seriously. one would have to be
dangerously out of touch with reality.
that said, the lack of confidence in gibbs at this point goes way, WAY beyond the QB situation.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:42 pm
by Mursilis
Steve Spurrier III wrote:Again, I would start Campbell, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
I'm officially going to say I hope we keep losing until Gibbs finally wakes up to the fact that Brunell is DONE! At this point, winning only buys Brunell more time, and is therefore detrimental to the long-term future of this team.
EDIT: And while I think Gibbs sometimes mis-manages the quarterback position, calling for his job is pretty ridiculous. You lose all credibility in my book.
I think it's time to ask whether part of the problem isn't Gibbs. He's 19-21 since he came back, and improving on that record this season isn't looking that great right now. People are going to point out all the success from his first tenure (as they should; the man has earned a TON of slack), but just ask yourself this - if this were any other coach than Joe Gibbs, would you want him to be fired if we finish 8-8 or worse this year?
Personally, I don't know, but you can only live off your past success so long . . .
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:44 pm
by Mursilis
Steve Spurrier III wrote:skinzrule wrote:time to get rid of gibbs and rebuild. Gibbs has neither the time nor the patience to did it.
Give me one reason why this team wouldn't be able to contend for a Super Bowl in 2008.
Two and a half years is a long, long time in the NFL.
2008 could be Campbell's first year as a starter. Who knows how long Brunell intends to kill this team, and how long Gibbs intends to let him?
And it's not like we'll be building through the draft - we've barely got any picks left!!
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:46 pm
by Steve Spurrier III
die cowboys die wrote:and in my opinion, anyone who witnesses what we saw today and still elects to start brunell should not only be nowhere near a coach's headset, but probably belongs in a mental institution. and i mean that seriously. one would have to be dangerously out of touch with reality.
And that's why I don't respect your opinion. Gibbs belongs in a mental health institution? Are you kidding? Something tells me he's not the one out of touch with reality.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:46 pm
by die cowboys die
Chris Luva Luva wrote:die cowboys die wrote:i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Fire Gibbs? And who shall take his place? Firing Gibbs just places this team into more turmoil. You've loss so much credibility.
i'm absolutely stymied by this continued faith in gibbs at this point. yes, gibbs is doing many, many things very well. he has put us back into a position where we OUGHT to at least back to respectability, if not contention. but starting brunell any longer is simply indefensible. no one else on earth would be able to get away with it, why should gibbs?? if a coach lacks the balls to bench a mind-numblingly horrible quarterback, and he has the sole authority there, what other choice do you have??? that can not be allowed to continue, whatever it takes.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:50 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
die cowboys die wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:die cowboys die wrote:i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Fire Gibbs? And who shall take his place? Firing Gibbs just places this team into more turmoil. You've loss so much credibility.
i'm absolutely stymied by this continued faith in gibbs at this point. yes, gibbs is doing many, many things very well. he has put us back into a position where we OUGHT to at least back to respectability, if not contention. but starting brunell any longer is simply indefensible. no one else on earth would be able to get away with it, why should gibbs?? if a coach lacks the balls to bench a mind-numblingly horrible quarterback, and he has the sole authority there, what other choice do you have??? that can not be allowed to continue, whatever it takes.
Again, I ask who shall take his place? Who is a worthy candidate? Gregg? Al? Spurrier? Who would you like to bring back? So we fire our HC and bring in someone with a new coaching staff?
Im pissed too but you always go to the extreme and end up with giant foot in your mouth.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:50 pm
by SkinzCanes
I don't know about that. Brunell didn't play well, but I think it's a mistake to assume that Campbell makes all of those throws.
I hope they play Campbell if we do lose to the Colts, but unlike some people, I won't be expecting Pro Bowl play. I would be shocked if he comes anywhere close to Brunell's 86.37 quarterback rating.
Sure Campbell could come in and struggle. Most young qb's do. But atleast we would be building towards something, getting him more experience for next season.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:51 pm
by Chris Luva Luva
Where is TRO?
He must have hung himself after Brunell threw the game away.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:52 pm
by Mursilis
Chris Luva Luva wrote:die cowboys die wrote:i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Fire Gibbs? And who shall take his place? Firing Gibbs just places this team into more turmoil. You've loss so much credibility.
Maybe, maybe not. There are currently three teams (St. Louis, NY Jets, and Minn.) with rookie head coaches AND better records than us. We got beat on opening night AT HOME by a rookie head coach. Does any scout in this league think any of those teams has talent better than or equal to ours?
I don't think firing Gibbs at this point is a smart move - it's not. But I do wonder if Gibbs has the 'hunger' anymore. When he first came here, he was a relatively unknown assistant who had never been a HC. When Jack Kent Cooke announced Gibbs was the choice, half the town said "Who?" and the other half said Cooke was a fool. Obviously, Gibbs proved himself beyond anyone's wildest expectations. But now that he's got it all (3 rings, HOF, $$$), I wonder about his drive.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:53 pm
by die cowboys die
Chris Luva Luva wrote:die cowboys die wrote:Chris Luva Luva wrote:die cowboys die wrote:i became infamous last year for saying a certain something, so i'm quite careful to bring it up again... but i feel at this point it must be said.
if gibbs continues to play brunell, he must be fired. it is a joke, and everyone on earth knows it. if our coach can not see that, he has no business being a coach now, regardless of his history.
i know there are many more problems, but we don't have other players at their position sitting on the bench. coach those people's asses of, and make the QB switch.
Fire Gibbs? And who shall take his place? Firing Gibbs just places this team into more turmoil. You've loss so much credibility.
i'm absolutely stymied by this continued faith in gibbs at this point. yes, gibbs is doing many, many things very well. he has put us back into a position where we OUGHT to at least back to respectability, if not contention. but starting brunell any longer is simply indefensible. no one else on earth would be able to get away with it, why should gibbs?? if a coach lacks the balls to bench a mind-numblingly horrible quarterback, and he has the sole authority there, what other choice do you have??? that can not be allowed to continue, whatever it takes.
Again, I ask who shall take his place? Who is a worthy candidate? Gregg? Al? Spurrier? Who would you like to bring back? So we fire our HC and bring in someone with a new coaching staff?
Im pissed too but you always go to the extreme and end up with giant foot in your mouth.
it doesn't really matter who replaces him. we might be worse, we might be better. but the fact is right now we are bad, and we have a coach who's not giving us a chance to really improve. better to take a gamble and end up worse than to accept being bad and just staying bad.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:56 pm
by old-timer
Steve Spurrier III wrote:old-timer wrote:It's so clearly illogical that there must be some unknown good reason behind it.
Does there? Gibbs has stuck with veteran quarterbacks playing much worse for a much longer period of time. Brunell in 2004 and Joe Theismann in 1985 immediately come to mind:
Code: Select all
GP CMP% YRDS TD/IN QBRT
2004 Brunell 9 49.8 1194 7/6 63.9
1985 Theismann 11 55.5 1774 8/16 59.6
2005 Brunell 6 61.8 1239 5/3 86.4
Again, I would start Campbell, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
EDIT: And while I think Gibbs sometimes mis-manages the quarterback position, calling for his job is pretty ridiculous. You lose all credibility in my book.
To my recollection, Joe T never declined to the point where his diminished skills were obvious to all. I don't recall anyone questioning his abilities up to the time LT ended his career. I also note that Joe T won us our first SB in 1983. Brunell has no such crediblity.
And I never called for Gibbs to be fired, so you must be thinking of someone else.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:00 pm
by SkinzCanes
What is our problem???? You can run and pass all over our defense with little or no resistance, we went from one of the best in the NFL last year to the worst this year..... what gives???
Our defense hasn't been consistantly good since we let Pierce and Smoot go. Last year they played great down the stretch but we weren't exactly playing top opponenets and earlier in the season they struggled bigtime. As much as everyone here hates Lavar, once he replaced Holdman last season the defense started playing at a much higher. I don't think that it's a coincidence that the defense is struggling again now with Holdman in the lineup. Most of the big runs that we have given up have been to his side. We can't keep letting our guys go and bringing in new players every offseason. There is no continuity on defense and the higher paid replacements that we are bringing in aren't as good as the guys that they are replacing. On top of that, you can't just throw away draft picks every offseason because that totally kills your depth. Just look at some of the guys that played significant minutes for us today....Holdman, Wright Rumph, Boschetti, Golston (he actually has played well this season but is still a rookie). Most of these guys shouldn't even be backups and they are playing major minutes for us. Without draft picks its impossible to have solid depth. Meanwhile, we handpick a linebacker to draft, trade up for him, and he cant even get in on defense. I've said it before and I'll say it again, until we bring in a real general manager we are going to see the same problems over and over again.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:01 pm
by old-timer
I should also note that Joe T won us our first SB in 1983. Brunell has no such crediblity.
Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:04 pm
by old-timer
SkinzCanes wrote:What is our problem???? You can run and pass all over our defense with little or no resistance, we went from one of the best in the NFL last year to the worst this year..... what gives???
Our defense hasn't been consistantly good since we let Pierce and Smoot go. Last year they played great down the stretch but we weren't exactly playing top opponenets and earlier in the season they struggled bigtime. As much as everyone here hates Lavar, once he replaced Holdman last season the defense started playing at a much higher. I don't think that it's a coincidence that the defense is struggling again now with Holdman in the lineup. Most of the big runs that we have given up have been to his side. We can't keep letting our guys go and bringing in new players every offseason. There is no continuity on defense and the higher paid replacements that we are bringing in aren't as good as the guys that they are replacing. On top of that, you can't just throw away draft picks every offseason because that totally kills your depth. Just look at some of the guys that played significant minutes for us today....Holdman, Wright Rumph, Boschetti, Golston (he actually has played well this season but is still a rookie). Most of these guys shouldn't even be backups and they are playing major minutes for us. Without draft picks its impossible to have solid depth. Meanwhile, we handpick a linebacker to draft, trade up for him, and he cant even get in on defense. I've said it before and I'll say it again, until we bring in a real general manager we are going to see the same problems over and over again.
What the hell does Vinny Cerrato do, anyway? Kiss all the right butts, like Casserly, but not do squat for the personnel? Snyder may be the real problem if he's just hiring a bunch of flunkies.