High Profile Signings Continue... big step backwards

[spudstr04]

I will tell you right now, the signings that we just made, are not a step back...they are 4 steps ahead......fauria, adam, lloyd, and randel el...are awesome...and we are not done yet...we still can get a LB and a back-up Qb...and the draft is still a month away~~~~

[Redskin in Canada]

This thread started as a whining cry and it makes no sense whatsoever. I thought you should know.

[Skinsfan55]

Ha Ha

I'm a Redskins fan, not a Redskins fanboy.

I don't have to love EVERY move this team makes.

Joe Gibbs is a great coach, maybe the greatest of all time, and he's shown that he's also a very good GM as well.

But to say that he has the Midas touch, and everything he does is awesome and he never makes any mistakes is ridiculous.

Even the writers on this site are using terms like "shopping spree" to describe the Redskins spending. I thought this was supposed to be a pejorative term! A reputation the Skins were trying to distance themselves from.

Now I am all for spending the money we have, after all, this is the NFL and there is a salary cap... but spending BIG money on a #3 reciever when we have needs at LB, DE, TE, OL, P, and K doesn't make sense to me.

Now it's not that I don't think Randle El will be a terrible player. I think he will be a solid contributor to the offense, he'll run back kicks, etc. but he has no REAL position. He's not worth ALL this money... but then, we might still go out and get Abraham, and/or Carter, or Arrington back, in that case it'd be no harm, no foul.

[hkHog]

Ha Ha

I'm a Redskins fan, not a Redskins fanboy.

I don't have to love EVERY move this team makes.

That's OK, but that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, quite the contrary, the reason most of us here have blind faith in Joe Gibbs is because he is almost always right. Just remember that if you bet againsy him you will be wrong 95% of the time.

Like I said on the previous page:

Instead of letting Bailey go (he didn't want to be around) we traded him and a 2nd for Portis. It was a lot but we got what we needed and it is unlikely that you will find a RB as good as Portis in the 2nd round. Last year he had a significantly better year than Warrick Dunn and should have been in the Pro Bowl and he finished fourth in the NFL in rushing. What's more, he is the centerpiece, the heart, and the soul of this team. You aren't going to build a team around Bailey and a 2nd round pick.

We traded a 3rd round pick for Brunell. It seemed bad at first but last year he had a Pro Bowl calibre year and was significantly better than Vick.

We signed Washington, he went to the Pro Bowl that year.

We signed Springs, that old, washed up, injury prone CB. Now, he's clearly one of the best players at his position in the NFL. Champ Bailey, who's that?

We signed Griffin who is just a beast and should have been in the Pro Bowl two years ago. We signed Salave'a as well.

We signed Daniels who suffered through some injuries before becoming one of our key contributors during our playoff run.

We drafted ey and Taylor. ey was robbed of a spot in the Pro Bowl last year and Taylor is an emerging superstar.

We signed Raybach. Despite a bad holding penalty he was solid all year and our line really began to gel.

We traded Coles for Moss. What a stupid move, everybody knew Moss wasn't a real #1 and he was grossly overpaid. Well, he only went to the Pro Bowl and was the second best WR in the league!

We drafted Carlos Rogers, huge upgrade over Smoot and a future Pro Bowler - in a couple games this year I thought he was the best player on the field.

Look at all those moves we've made. Almost every guy not only worked out but have had Pro Bowl quality years since being signed. That track record is just incredible! Portis, Moss, Brunell, ey, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Rogers, Griffin,... And yet our FO still gets no respect!

I hate to say it, but most likely you will be wrong. The proof is above. Looking at that track record I think it's pretty fair to say that those who don't "love EVERY move this team makes" are usually wrong.

[BossHog]

Ha Ha

I'm a Redskins fan, not a Redskins fanboy.

I don't have to love EVERY move this team makes.

Joe Gibbs is a great coach, maybe the greatest of all time, and he's shown that he's also a very good GM as well.

But to say that he has the Midas touch, and everything he does is awesome and he never makes any mistakes is ridiculous.

Even the writers on this site are using terms like "shopping spree" to describe the Redskins spending. I thought this was supposed to be a pejorative term! A reputation the Skins were trying to distance themselves from.

Now I am all for spending the money we have, after all, this is the NFL and there is a salary cap... but spending BIG money on a #3 reciever when we have needs at LB, DE, TE, OL, P, and K doesn't make sense to me.

Now it's not that I don't think Randle El will be a terrible player. I think he will be a solid contributor to the offense, he'll run back kicks, etc. but he has no REAL position. He's not worth ALL this money... but then, we might still go out and get Abraham, and/or Carter, or Arrington back, in that case it'd be no harm, no foul.

If you construe the headline as having negative connotations, that's your prerogative, but I'd wager it wasn't intended that way. It's not really all that surprising that you'd perceive that or any other headline in a negative manner though.

If you read the article, I think you'd agree that it wasn't negative either. So please don't profess to speak for the site or any member of it... you have enough on your hands keeping track of your own opinion.

I think if the Redskins were truly trying to separate themselves from the tag of spenfing big in free agency... they probably wouldn't have spent big in free agency.

But it's one thing to spend $$$ for the sake of making a big splash in the media, and another thing entirely when you're legitimately making your team better. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive, especially when you're addressing needs with every signing.

Which they have IMO, the opinion's of the coaches, and of many other board members -- whether you think they have or not. Do we still have needs? Sure. But there's still a draft and 6 months of free agency too.

[Skinsfan55]

I didn't construe the headline that way at all, I KNOW it was meant as a positive, or at least neutral but the free spending that it implies is usually a negative for sports teams.

It's weird to use shopping spree as a positive it seems, since fiscal responsibility is the name of the game when you're working with the cap.

JF did make a good point though in another thread, the Redskins have very capable cap experts who know all the ins and outs of spending in the NFL... still, you can't be too careful with how you spend it. I would hate to see more moves like we made RIGHT after The Danny bought the team.

You're right though, Archuleta, and Randle El are solid players. Players I would like to have on my team.

I still think that ARE is an average reciever, but a great returner though, and he DOES make the Redskins better... but how much better, will he make us any worse if he takes playing time away from Lloyd? It's possible.

Anyway, it's not a big deal I suppose. We still have enough left over to have a successful draft and maybe even trade for Abraham, but at least Carter or someone similar. We'll still have a solid defense and they'll improve in part because they'll have an offense that keeps them rested and off the field more often.

I'm over the initial shock of signing ARE, who I still think is a questionable #2 WR, but an excellent #3, so the alarmist tone of the post I made initially no longer really applies.

[MarcusBeNimble]

i agree that randle el got way too much money for what hes done with the steelers. ill give him credit for being one of the TOP 5 Versatile players in the NFL, BUT....the money Dan Dan through his way is absurd and im pretty certain we couldnt knocked off a couple of mill. from his contract and STILL gotten him... regardless, im nothing short of delighted to see him in burgundy and gold next season

[Irn-Bru]

I'm over the initial shock of signing ARE, who I still think is a questionable #2 WR, but an excellent #3, so the alarmist tone of the post I made initially no longer really applies.

Since at this time last year you were swearing that Moss would be an awesome #2 but could never be a great #1 for us, this is a good sign. If the general pattern of your predictions holds, I'm thinking that the future for ARE is looking pretty bright as our #2.

I can't believe there is an entire thread devoted to this kind of complaining, and that the copout offered is that this is merely someone not blindly loving Gibbs. That is the most tired argument on this board in the past two years. Call these posts for what they are: nitpicking, complaining, "partially obstructed vantage point"-based predictions, etc. The rest of us will quietly wait and see what happens when Gibbs is in charge.

[redskingush]

Why did the Redskins sign Randle El?

It makes NO sense! 31 million base with 11 million in bonuses?

Hey everyone, guess how many TD passes he caught last year?

Answer, ONE! ONE TOUCHDOWN!

He's played four seasons now of 16 games, guess how many seasons he's had with 50 or more catches?

NONE!

Okay, guess how many seasons he's had over 650 yards recieving...

NONE!

Guess how many seasons he's had with 16 yards per catch....

NONE!

Your missing the fact that Pittsburgh didnt hardly pass until the last 4 weeks and playoffs, As a team they completed 228 last year, 20 for touchdowns, but you had to account for him which freed up Hines Ward for 69 Catches and 11 td not to mention Heath Miller for 35 and 6td. That could be Moss and ey.

[Skinsfan55]

I'm over the initial shock of signing ARE, who I still think is a questionable #2 WR, but an excellent #3, so the alarmist tone of the post I made initially no longer really applies.

Since at this time last year you were swearing that Moss would be an awesome #2 but could never be a great #1 for us, this is a good sign. If the general pattern of your predictions holds, I'm thinking that the future for ARE is looking pretty bright as our #2.

I can't believe there is an entire thread devoted to this kind of complaining, and that the copout offered is that this is merely someone not blindly loving Gibbs. That is the most tired argument on this board in the past two years. Call these posts for what they are: nitpicking, complaining, "partially obstructed vantage point"-based predictions, etc. The rest of us will quietly wait and see what happens when Gibbs is in charge.

So you're saying that Santana Moss' amazing pro bowl season was no surprise to you?

Every sportsfan in the country was shocked at how good of a season he had. All the scouting reports said Moss was a good #2 and that was all.

Scouts can be wrong, but it's not often they are THIS far off the mark.

[Scottskins]

That's the very reason, why ANY move made by Gibbs should make you think, hmmm, wonder what Gibbs sees in that guy, instead of, oh my god, right back in the toilet we go...

[Scottskins]

It's gonna be interesting to see what everyone has to say after we win the Superbowl this season...

well, we still woulda won without all these guys...

bah, they totally bought that ring...

it was Saunders and Williams, Gibbs is still over the hill...

the list will go on and on

[Skinsfan55]

Jesus Christ...

What about 2004, 2003, 2002 or 2001 when Randle El was an average reciever catching like 40 passes on average for 500 yards a season?

The Steelers had 532 passing attempts in 2003, yet A.R.E remained the same...

Now COULD Randle El be a 1,000 yard reciever? Maybe, Rod Gardner was... (I consider Rod Gardner to be a much better WR than ARE btw) but the fact he never has before means he's getting a lot of money for never producing.

He'll be a valuable #3 guy, but man, I hope we have enough to build a defense that needs depth in the secondary (Rogers is young, Springs is wearing down, Archuleta has limitations, Taylor faces jail time, etc. etc.), a new OLB (LaVar left a HUGE hole), an improved pass rush (we stuff the run, but are terrible as pass rushers), and depth at tackle (Griffin and Salave'a are it).

We also need depth on the offensive line (Jim Molinaro seems like our only legit reserve lineman now that Ray Brown is gone), a kicker (is Hall coming back, I thought cutting him saved money), a punter (Frost is garbage), a 3rd string QB and a blocker at TE (Fauria is not much of a blocker.)

It seems if you're going to spend on fringe guys like ARE, you would have everything else in order first...

[Scottskins]

Jesus Christ...

What about 2004, 2003, 2002 or 2001 when Randle El was an average reciever catching like 40 passes on average for 500 yards a season?

The Steelers had 532 passing attempts in 2003, yet A.R.E remained the same...

Now COULD Randle El be a 1,000 yard reciever? Maybe, Rod Gardner was... (I consider Rod Gardner to be a much better WR than ARE btw) but the fact he never has before means he's getting a lot of money for never producing.

He'll be a valuable #3 guy, but man, I hope we have enough to build a defense that needs depth in the secondary (Rogers is young, Springs is wearing down, Archuleta has limitations, Taylor faces jail time, etc. etc.), a new OLB (LaVar left a HUGE hole), an improved pass rush (we stuff the run, but are terrible as pass rushers), and depth at tackle (Griffin and Salave'a are it).

We also need depth on the offensive line (Jim Molinaro seems like our only legit reserve lineman now that Ray Brown is gone), a kicker (is Hall coming back, I thought cutting him saved money), a punter (Frost is garbage), a 3rd string QB and a blocker at TE (Fauria is not much of a blocker.)

It seems if you're going to spend on fringe guys like ARE, you would have everything else in order first...

now your just reaching don't you think? receivers typically take 3 years before they do anything. El had to play behind Hines and Plaxico most of the time as well. If Gibbs sees something in him like he did in Moss, I'll take it.
Defense? Haven't we done pretty nicely on defense the last few years? We haven't had aany pass rush until last season. We got 20 sacks in the last 7 games. Our secondary is stacked with AA. Taylor isn't going to jail. Money will make sure of that, plus it totally sounds like a prosecutor trying to make a name for himself. As you said, Rogers is young and a stud. I disagree about Springs. He's in his prime as far as I can tell...

Sure we need a pass rush, but Abraham isn't the big answer you seek. Special DE's aren't common enough to buy. We need to draft the right guy. Lavar left no hole IMO. Antonio Pierce left a gaping hole though, and that does still need to be addressed. Of course we have needs. We certainly have less than most of the teams in the NFL if not all. We have the best coaching staff in the NFL and they will make up for any gaps we have...

[sch1977]

If ARE can take a DB or two off of Moss to allow us to win more games, who cares if he doesnt make the Pro Bowl or lights up the stat sheet. Isn't it all about the "W's"?

[Countertrey]

(Rogers is young, Springs is wearing down, Archuleta has limitations, Taylor faces jail time, etc. etc.), a new OLB (LaVar left a HUGE hole), an improved pass rush (we stuff the run, but are terrible as pass rushers), and depth at tackle (Griffin and Salave'a are it).

We also need depth on the offensive line (Jim Molinaro seems like our only legit reserve lineman now that Ray Brown is gone), a kicker (is Hall coming back, I thought cutting him saved money), a punter (Frost is garbage), a 3rd string QB and a blocker at TE (Fauria is not much of a blocker.)

It seems if you're going to spend on fringe guys like ARE, you would have everything else in order first...

I hereby call this meeting of the Wet Blanket Society to order.

Our first order of business tonight... We are in trouble, folks. The Danny has gone out and started making a ton of noise in free agency... Again, he has confounded the Oracle of Sports Illustrated, and manuvered and schemed around the Cap. He has been asked by Gibbs and company to provide certain players... and he has come through.

We cannot permit this to stand. We know that, somehow, some way, disaster is just around the corner. We know that it is not possible that Gibbs and company actually have some clue. We are destined to resume our inferiority to the Tuna and his minions. Disaster awaits.

We MUST use the blanket. Suffocate any semblance of optimism. The joy is not warranted. Kill it. Now.

In the words of our esteemed founder, Chicken Little (may God rest his pessimistic little chicken soul), "The Sky is Falling!!!"

I give you our Wet Blanket salute...

[EasyMoney]

Jesus Christ...

What about 2004, 2003, 2002 or 2001 when Randle El was an average reciever catching like 40 passes on average for 500 yards a season?

The Steelers had 532 passing attempts in 2003, yet A.R.E remained the same...

Now COULD Randle El be a 1,000 yard reciever? Maybe, Rod Gardner was... (I consider Rod Gardner to be a much better WR than ARE btw) but the fact he never has before means he's getting a lot of money for never producing.

He'll be a valuable #3 guy, but man, I hope we have enough to build a defense that needs depth in the secondary (Rogers is young, Springs is wearing down, Archuleta has limitations, Taylor faces jail time, etc. etc.), a new OLB (LaVar left a HUGE hole), an improved pass rush (we stuff the run, but are terrible as pass rushers), and depth at tackle (Griffin and Salave'a are it).

We also need depth on the offensive line (Jim Molinaro seems like our only legit reserve lineman now that Ray Brown is gone), a kicker (is Hall coming back, I thought cutting him saved money), a punter (Frost is garbage), a 3rd string QB and a blocker at TE (Fauria is not much of a blocker.)

It seems if you're going to spend on fringe guys like ARE, you would have everything else in order first...

If you want to look at his numbers, consider that Ward and Burress started over Randall El. You could make the 'if he couldn't beat them out' argument but its not like Ward and Burress didn't have good regular season production. Which are the numbers you're referring to right? Consider that Cowher pounds the ball relentlessly. Consider that in 2003, when the Steelers passed 532 times they were horrible. They finished 6-10 that year. You'll find that NFL teams who aren't playing well will pass more in an attempt to generate more points. But that doesn't mean it works. After all, they did finish 6-10 that year... Super Bowl caliber teams almost ALWAYS have a great running game. At least 9 times out of 10.

Consider that Randall El made probably the biggest play in SBXL. He made similar plays almost every game in the post season didn't he? Is that not clutch? I don't want to automatically label him as a #3 receiver because I believe he'll get a fair shake, but how many 3rd string receivers execute trick plays as well as Randall El? Even though A. Brown practically saved our playoff run last year, do you want him returning kicks for us again this year? Do you want Santana returning kicks or catching passes? I never like seeing a carousel at any position except the D line but its nice to know that we picked up someone who is great at what they do. Someone who is better than what we had on our roster. One of our weaknesses last year is now a strength. When Patten went down, we slumped. When Thrash went down, it was even worse. I don't know about you but I'd rather not see that again. If your argument was about Chad Morton a couple years ago... I would have to agree.

In regards to the D. We were worried last year when we lost Pierce and Smoot. No we didn't finish 3rd this year but our defense was playing as well as any other defense in the league towards the end of the season. It may take another half season for the unit to come together the way they did but as long as its the 2nd half of the season... Personally, I'm not worried about the defense at all unless Sean Taylor is behind bars.

[Irn-Bru]

I'm over the initial shock of signing ARE, who I still think is a questionable #2 WR, but an excellent #3, so the alarmist tone of the post I made initially no longer really applies.

Since at this time last year you were swearing that Moss would be an awesome #2 but could never be a great #1 for us, this is a good sign. If the general pattern of your predictions holds, I'm thinking that the future for ARE is looking pretty bright as our #2.

I can't believe there is an entire thread devoted to this kind of complaining, and that the copout offered is that this is merely someone not blindly loving Gibbs. That is the most tired argument on this board in the past two years. Call these posts for what they are: nitpicking, complaining, "partially obstructed vantage point"-based predictions, etc. The rest of us will quietly wait and see what happens when Gibbs is in charge.

So you're saying that Santana Moss' amazing pro bowl season was no surprise to you?

Every sportsfan in the country was shocked at how good of a season he had. All the scouting reports said Moss was a good #2 and that was all.

Scouts can be wrong, but it's not often they are THIS far off the mark.

Santana was a surprise to me but not as much of a surprise as he was for many in the media, for Jets fans (who I'm guessing no longer call him "Sideline Santana"), and you.

So, feel free to pigeon-hole ARE as at best a #3. Continue to think that we should have drafted KWII, that Ramsey would have made the better QB (and that Joe Gibbs didn't keep his word(!)), that we are overpaying in this free-agency period, that we didn't address our D-line problem adequately before last season, and that Gibbs runs an antiquated offense.

Like I said, if the pattern of your predictions versus real results holds, we're in for a great season this year.

[cvillehog]

Jesus Christ...

What about 2004, 2003, 2002 or 2001 when Randle El was an average reciever catching like 40 passes on average for 500 yards a season?

The Steelers had 532 passing attempts in 2003, yet A.R.E remained the same...

Now COULD Randle El be a 1,000 yard reciever? Maybe, Rod Gardner was... (I consider Rod Gardner to be a much better WR than ARE btw) but the fact he never has before means he's getting a lot of money for never producing.

He'll be a valuable #3 guy, but man, I hope we have enough to build a defense that needs depth in the secondary (Rogers is young, Springs is wearing down, Archuleta has limitations, Taylor faces jail time, etc. etc.), a new OLB (LaVar left a HUGE hole), an improved pass rush (we stuff the run, but are terrible as pass rushers), and depth at tackle (Griffin and Salave'a are it).

We also need depth on the offensive line (Jim Molinaro seems like our only legit reserve lineman now that Ray Brown is gone), a kicker (is Hall coming back, I thought cutting him saved money), a punter (Frost is garbage), a 3rd string QB and a blocker at TE (Fauria is not much of a blocker.)

It seems if you're going to spend on fringe guys like ARE, you would have everything else in order first...

What, exactly, is your point? Randle El isn't Moss, so he isn't worth the money? Randle El had 35 catches last year. Sounds like a good number two. Patten only had 22. Thrash had 14. Sounds like an upgrade.

[Steve Spurrier III]

What about 2004, 2003, 2002 or 2001 when Randle El was an average reciever catching like 40 passes on average for 500 yards a season?

It's important to remember that Randle El has only played the wide reciever position for four seasons (he was a rookie in 2002), and has only been a starter for one. It would be one thing if we signed a guy with Randle El's numbers who was 32, but this guy is still on the ascent, and given the fact he didn't play this position at all in high school or college, he's as good as bet as anyone to continue to improve.

I would offer Hines Ward as a comparison. Ward also played quarterback in college (although he also played wide reciever), and not much unlike Randle El, had nice but not great numbers his first three seasons before he stepped it up a bit in Year 4 and had a true breakout season in Year 5.

Randle El should continue to get better. The Redskins didn't shell out this kind of money for his 2002-2005 production - he got this money for what he will hopefully be capable of in 2006-2011. And if you don't see a difference between the two, you need to think about the way you evaluate players.

[hkHog]

What, exactly, is your point? Randle El isn't Moss, so he isn't worth the money? Randle El had 35 catches last year. Sounds like a good number two. Patten only had 22. Thrash had 14. Sounds like an upgrade.

Good point

[sch1977]

Did someone just say ARE wasn't as good as 50/50?

If you are serious, that HAS to be the most dumbest comment I have ever heard regarding Skins players

[Skinsfan55]

ARE and Gardner have both played in 4 NFL seasons where they played in 16 games.

Over that time Gardner had a career low yards of 600, ARE's best season is 6001 yards.

Gardner averaged 5.5 TD catches a season, ARE averaged 1.75 with a career high of 3 (Gardner's career high was .

ARE's average yards per catch is 12.4. Gardner's was 13.3.

Gardner averaged 56.75 catches a season, ARE averaged 40.5

Now what possible metric is there to say that ARE is the better reciever? There aren't any left!

Is ARE a more valuable player? Maybe he's a special teams superstar, but we paid ARE big bucks, he's going to be a reciever, and he's not as good, at that position, as Gardner is.

ARE lacks a true position, and while a guy like that can be valuable to a team if used correctly, he's not usually the kind you spend a lot of money on...

[EasyMoney]

ARE and Gardner have both played in 4 NFL seasons where they played in 16 games.

Over that time Gardner had a career low yards of 600, ARE's best season is 6001 yards.

Gardner averaged 5.5 TD catches a season, ARE averaged 1.75 with a career high of 3 (Gardner's career high was .

ARE's average yards per catch is 12.4. Gardner's was 13.3.

Gardner averaged 56.75 catches a season, ARE averaged 40.5

Now what possible metric is there to say that ARE is the better reciever? There aren't any left!

Is ARE a more valuable player? Maybe he's a special teams superstar, but we paid ARE big bucks, he's going to be a reciever, and he's not as good, at that position, as Gardner is.

ARE lacks a true position, and while a guy like that can be valuable to a team if used correctly, he's not usually the kind you spend a lot of money on...

Ok but Gardner was also a 1st round pick. With the exception of the quarterback position, most 1st rounders are expected to start on day one. What I'm trying to figure out is how you're equating a middle 1st round pick (who was expected to start) with a very late 2nd round pick (borderline 3rd round pick) to add depth. Gardner also came in and somehow won the #1 spot if I remember correctly. Who is going to get more playing time and more attempts? A #1 receiver or a #3 receiver? If you want to compare Gardner with someone. Look to the guy drafted right after him.

What ARE lacks in 'attributes' for one particular position he more than makes up for as a football player. Would you not agree with that? Are Steve Smith and Santana Moss the prototypical size for receivers? Did they not finish 1 and 2 respectively in the league this year?

[sch1977]

ARE and Gardner have both played in 4 NFL seasons where they played in 16 games.

Over that time Gardner had a career low yards of 600, ARE's best season is 6001 yards.

Gardner averaged 5.5 TD catches a season, ARE averaged 1.75 with a career high of 3 (Gardner's career high was .

ARE's average yards per catch is 12.4. Gardner's was 13.3.

Gardner averaged 56.75 catches a season, ARE averaged 40.5

Now what possible metric is there to say that ARE is the better reciever? There aren't any left!

Is ARE a more valuable player? Maybe he's a special teams superstar, but we paid ARE big bucks, he's going to be a reciever, and he's not as good, at that position, as Gardner is.

ARE lacks a true position, and while a guy like that can be valuable to a team if used correctly, he's not usually the kind you spend a lot of money on...

For a while, Garder was at WORST a #2 receiver. He also played under pass happy Spurrier. Lets compare apples to apples here man