The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

JansenFan wrote:

redskincity wrote:Brunell could hit the broad side of a Barn last year.

He gets my vote by far. Now it is time to shut him down.

Hey RSC. Long-time, no talk.

I agree that Brunell is vastly improved from last year, but it was mainly do to healing from an injury, where as other players, like Dockery, actually improved technique-wise.

I guess it all depends on your definition of improvement.

Yes, it has been a while. I agree that his legs were not under him and we had flashbacks in the Tampa game. I almost threw up but I was impressed with him up until then.

Dockery was manhandling the opposition this year and he did well.

I would go with Brunell, but Chris ey had a very good season stat wise. He became an intricate part of our offense. Now if we can only pick up the TE Byrd from USC, we'll be in biz.

the most improved player to me is Walt Harris

I thought for sure we would suck if he had to start at corner... he really suprised me with how well he played... I thought the loss of smoot was going to really kill this team...

I used to bash Harris every oportunity I got... He definitely surprised me....

Lemar Marshall All the way!

First off, I hope that Walt Harris post was a joke, b/c he was definately a factor in us losing those 3 or 4 games in the middle of the year when we fell to 5-6. Harris used to be a #2 corner on other teams, so he should be able to play the position, and this year he just plain stunk. Hence, after we ended up 5-6, he lost the job to Mr. Rogers. As for the Dock article, I think a lot of people are missing the point. As a few pointed out, Dock is young and has room to improve, and I think when you compare his year to last year, where he gave up a bunch of sacks, was often beat off the line, and was notorious for false-start penalties, there was very little of that this year. Whereas Brunell has been in the league, and proved at points he could play the QB position well. With Moss, again, it is different b/c he was used differently and more often in our system. I think the article was written on fundamentals, and that is where Dock improved the most. Brunell had more of a comeback year, since he was injured last year.

santana moss is the most improved player.

while i agree that there are other players who have improved this past season, i feel that moss's improvement is the most dramatic. he went from being decent to one of the top offensive players in the whole league.

he's the man!

Walt Harris??

Okay, he probably got burned like one less time?

Our corners are asked to do a lot. Blitzing more than any other team in the league, you'll have to expect that. People forget that corners are instumental in stopping speed backs from having huge games. Our corners blitz, cover man, or contain the run as a unit, better than any other defense in my opinion.

The problems we had with getting penetration from the D-line, and sometimes against the blitz put them in very bad situations. Considering there are only a handful of times they've gotten burned, I think everyone, including Walt Harris has done a good job. Corners get less credit, because when they are doing their job, the less you hear their name.

Also consider GOOD coverage will be beaten by a GREAT pass, and GREAT coverage can be beaten by a PERFECT pass.

We Redskins fans forget this happens all the time in the NFL considering we mostly see Brunell at the helm where NOT DOING and passing the buck to the defense is considered an MVP year.

Our defense, which Walt Harris played a huge role in, made it possible for Brunell not to throw picks since they would hold other teams in check, time after time, after three and outs. Even Brunell's most spectacular game against Dallas, wouldn't have been possible if the defense put their head down. Before we mention the first TB game, let's remeberer HIS two picks and two fumbles (people forget the fumble line when looking at Brunell's stats).

Let's criticize the right side of the ball at the very least, whether you want to blame the WRs instead of Brunell, at least it makes more sense.

dlc wrote:Our corners are asked to do a lot. Blitzing more than any other team in the league, you'll have to expect that. People forget that corners are instumental in stopping speed backs from having huge games. Our corners blitz, cover man, or contain the run as a unit, better than any other defense in my opinion.

The problems we had with getting penetration from the D-line, and sometimes against the blitz put them in very bad situations. Considering there are only a handful of times they've gotten burned, I think everyone, including Walt Harris has done a good job. Corners get less credit, because when they are doing their job, the less you hear their name.

Also consider GOOD coverage will be beaten by a GREAT pass, and GREAT coverage can be beaten by a PERFECT pass.

We Redskins fans forget this happens all the time in the NFL considering we mostly see Brunell at the helm where NOT DOING and passing the buck to the defense is considered an MVP year.

Our defense, which Walt Harris played a huge role in, made it possible for Brunell not to throw picks since they would hold other teams in check, time after time, after three and outs. Even Brunell's most spectacular game against Dallas, wouldn't have been possible if the defense put their head down. Before we mention the first TB game, let's remeberer HIS two picks and two fumbles (people forget the fumble line when looking at Brunell's stats).

Let's criticize the right side of the ball at the very least, whether you want to blame the WRs instead of Brunell, at least it makes more sense.

My goodness, Im sooooo happy someone else realizes these things also. THANK U SOO MUCH. Hopefully they'll listen to you because most of them dont understand WHY our corners got torched as much as they did and that its amazing that they didn't get burnt even more due to the lack of a pass rush. Walt and everyone else played exceptionally this year. This defense NEVER lost a game for us this year. NEVER. NEVER. When we lost it was because the offense failed to show up. Expecting this defense to shutout the teams we played this season every week is RETARDED. Yet they kept every game within grasp of an anemic offense.

This defense NEVER lost a game for us this year. NEVER. NEVER. When we lost it was because the offense failed to show up. Expecting this defense to shutout the teams we played this season every week is RETARDED. Yet they kept every game within grasp of an anemic offense.[/quote]

Never! what happened the first time we played the Giants, they scored allday on our D. Granted out O did zero but our D fell apart and the O had to throw the ball allday to play catch-up. I do agree with you our D was awesome and kept us in almost every game but not in EVERY game.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

dlc wrote:Our corners are asked to do a lot. Blitzing more than any other team in the league, you'll have to expect that. People forget that corners are instumental in stopping speed backs from having huge games. Our corners blitz, cover man, or contain the run as a unit, better than any other defense in my opinion.

The problems we had with getting penetration from the D-line, and sometimes against the blitz put them in very bad situations. Considering there are only a handful of times they've gotten burned, I think everyone, including Walt Harris has done a good job. Corners get less credit, because when they are doing their job, the less you hear their name.

Also consider GOOD coverage will be beaten by a GREAT pass, and GREAT coverage can be beaten by a PERFECT pass.

We Redskins fans forget this happens all the time in the NFL considering we mostly see Brunell at the helm where NOT DOING and passing the buck to the defense is considered an MVP year.

Our defense, which Walt Harris played a huge role in, made it possible for Brunell not to throw picks since they would hold other teams in check, time after time, after three and outs. Even Brunell's most spectacular game against Dallas, wouldn't have been possible if the defense put their head down. Before we mention the first TB game, let's remeberer HIS two picks and two fumbles (people forget the fumble line when looking at Brunell's stats).

Let's criticize the right side of the ball at the very least, whether you want to blame the WRs instead of Brunell, at least it makes more sense.

My goodness, Im sooooo happy someone else realizes these things also. THANK U SOO MUCH. Hopefully they'll listen to you because most of them dont understand WHY our corners got torched as much as they did and that its amazing that they didn't get burnt even more due to the lack of a pass rush. Walt and everyone else played exceptionally this year. This defense NEVER lost a game for us this year. NEVER. NEVER. When we lost it was because the offense failed to show up. Expecting this defense to shutout the teams we played this season every week is RETARDED. Yet they kept every game within grasp of an anemic offense.

People hear you Chris...by god people hear you. The point you keep missing is that just because we didn't register sack numbers doesn't automatically mean that our corners were all Great.

I.e. Carlos Rogers played behind the same pass rush that Walt Harris did, yet he performed markedly better than did Harris. That is a basic point. No one is going to dispute the fact that we need a player on the front four who can get the QB down, but you are ignoring reality by saying that we had NO pass rush. We had a pass rush, and like I have said numerous times before, and Greg Blache said out of his own mouth. The Redskins were tops in the league in the category "Passer Rating Against". Which means our front four WAS generating pressure. Was collapsing the pocket. But we didn't put up 50 sacks for lack of a super athelete who can push the pocket and get to the QB in less than 3 seconds.

So while we understand your agenda, it does nothing to remove the fact that Walt Harris could have played a lot better, and when he was benched in favor of Carlos (who played under the same conditions) Carlos proved he was the better corner.

Walt Harris is a good reserve corner, but there is a reason that the team drafted Carlos Rogers and tried to sign RW McQuarters in FA...the team gets it so why are you trying to tell everyone they are wrong when they point out that Walt was our weakest link? We didn't have a Strahan or Freeney on the line, however, we collapsed the pocket, and in the San Diego game in particular, when Walt was getting torched...GW pulled him and Rogers came up with 1 pick and 1 dropped pick. Walt is a liability.

The Hogster wrote:Carlos Rogers played behind the same pass rush that Walt Harris did, yet he performed markedly better than did Harris. That is a basic point. No one is going to dispute the fact that we need a player on the front four who can get the QB down, but you are ignoring reality by saying that we had NO pass rush. We had a pass rush, and like I have said numerous times before

There is a tale of two parts of a season here. The first half of the season you could reverse Hogster's statement. We had no pass rush from the down lineman, Carlos Rogers was a liability and Walt Harris was performing really well. The second half you could say quote was more accurate.

There are a lot of worse corners in the league than Walt Harris, a whole lot. Rogers was drafted because Harris is old. Rookie corners don't just perform in this league immediately very often, so it was smart to get him. He is shaping up right and could make our secondary one of the best in the league. Walt Harris still is capable, and he has performed. Give him is due. If you want to criticize ANY corner in this league, it is very possible, because they all get burned, just some less than others. For the responsibility that our defense hands over to them, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more. I'll be surprised if we find more bang for the buck than this guy.

I never said Walt was better than Carlos. Im saying that Walt is nowhere near as bad as people make him out to be. He's not the weak link of the defense. He never lost a game for us. His weaknesses will be masked moreso if we had a pass rush. Im giving dude props because a lot of people like to rip on him.

So what we can pressure the QB! We pressured Hassleback but he like many other QBs have been able to make plays on their feet against us. What good is pressure if the QB can keep the play alive and outrun the linemen? Our linemen are incredibly slow and hardly ever catch a QB from behind when he's on the run. What happened in the SEA game? Why was the entire defense getting picked apart? No pass rush. Sean, Carlos, Walt, Ade all had safety help and we still got picked apart. Why? No pass rush.

If you feel that you an accurately judge a corners abilities with the inconsistent pass rush that we had then thats fine, go ahead. If your fine with the horrible pass rush then thats fine too. Not only would Walts abilities seem to increase but so would Rogers and Springs.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I never said Walt was better than Carlos. Im saying that Walt is nowhere near as bad as people make him out to be. He's not the weak link of the defense. He never lost a game for us. His weaknesses will be masked moreso if we had a pass rush. Im giving dude props because a lot of people like to rip on him.

So what we can pressure the QB! We pressured Hassleback but he like many other QBs have been able to make plays on their feet against us. What good is pressure if the QB can keep the play alive and outrun the linemen? Our linemen are incredibly slow and hardly ever catch a QB from behind when he's on the run. What happened in the SEA game? Why was the entire defense getting picked apart? No pass rush. Sean, Carlos, Walt, Ade all had safety help and we still got picked apart. Why? No pass rush.

If you feel that you an accurately judge a corners abilities with the inconsistent pass rush that we had then thats fine, go ahead. If your fine with the horrible pass rush then thats fine too. Not only would Walts abilities seem to increase but so would Rogers and Springs.

Of course our secondary's job would be alot easier if we had a dominant force on the line. The reality is that Defensive End and Cornerback are two of the most highly paid positions (behind QB) in the NFL for precisely the reason you point out. There are not many elite corners or pass rushers who can dominate their positions. That being the case...many teams...most teams don't have the person you keep speaking of. We can name the dominant DE's in this league (Strahan, Freeney, Abraham, Rice, Taylor, Kearse* sometimes) but after that you have a lot of guys who will give you 5-8 sacks in any good year.

You seem to equate our lack of having one of the aforementioned guys as "lacking a pass rush" and therfore inhibiting the play of our corners. That is not a true statement. We have two good corners, and Walt Harris is serviceable. I don't rip the guy as much, but I do think he is the weak link of our secondary. Let's face it...we don't have Sean Taylor or Shawn Springs level of play at each position. No team does. Out of our secondary Harris is the weakest link. No he's not the worse corner in the league, and no we shouldn't get rid of him.

What we should do is get some depth. Perhaps a younger, physical corner who can play the nickle and let Harris come in to spell those players. He is a 10 year vet, he's had knee surgery that many thought he couldn't recover from, and he has nagging injuries (calf, hamstring, knee)....it makes since to allow Harris to do what he does best, and that is come onto the field sparingly when needed. When he is forced into the starting lineup he is definitely the weakest link of the secondary.

Oh, and pressure matters because you were saying we have no pass rush. Pressure matters a lot when you are playing teams that use alot of timing for their routes (i.e. west coast offenses) Hasselbeck got away from us, but he's done that all year.

I want us to get one of those "dominant pass rushers" that everyone wants to pony up the big bucks for...but name one of them that's in the Superbowl right now? Having a Jevon Kearse or Freeney doesn't automatically make Walt Harris turn into Deltha Oneal..you can't just look at sacks by D-Linemen and say we have no pass rush.

Oh, I think the real weak link "god love him" is Reynaldo Wynn...if we can add an Abraham or Robert Mathis or maybe trade up into the 1st round and grab Mario, Kiwi or Hali...I would support that 100 percent. My only point is you can't just point to the lack of a franchise guy as the sole reason Walt gets beat up and down the field.

Of course a pass rushing DL is ideal, but those are also hard to come by and not cheap. With the frequency GW dials up blitzes, a LB who has some great timing may also be good. Washington is already good at it, and sometimes Lavar, but we can't always blitz Washington and Lavar may not be around. The corners are pretty good at it, and Clark improved, so maybe another year with GW teaching will solve the penetration problems on it its own with our existing players.

Pressure defenses often get more pressure from well-timed, and well-disguised blitzes than just front four dominance. Some players are a lot better at doing it than anothers. The question is can we find some that don't hurt us in other areas or better yet, will GW get the guys to get better at it more consistently.

http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=15182

Yeah ... you know me.

DarthMonk

http://www.thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18014

You should know better than to think that THN wouldn't have noticed an article that is a week old. . .


http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18014


Beat me to the punch, Chris. And with a cool picture. . .I gotta work on my message board chops. . .

FanfromAnnapolis wrote:You should know better than to think that THN wouldn't have noticed an article that is a week old. . .


http://www.the-hogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18014


Beat me to the punch, Chris. And with a cool picture. . .I gotta work on my message board chops. . .

I knew someone was out there trying to beat me to the punch.

Chris:

EXCELLENT picture. One of my all-time favorite movies.

By the way, been out of the loop for a while. After we lost football just didn't mean as much for a while.

Darth

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

http://www.thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18014

Again ... GREAT picture!

Funny how differently they feel about Dock over at extreme skins. The following was the WORST thing I saw when discussing the "most improved" article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDETHEWALRUS
Dockery has gotten knocked around alot by skins fans. I do believe he is the weakest link on that line as it stands, but that isn't saying anything. I am very happy with our O-line play and I think that Dockery's development is to credit for it. Eventually he will become one of the top guards in this league IMO. As long as he has the tutelege of Bugel, I expect constant improvement out of him. Given his physical attributes and his coaches he should end up an amazing guard.

I was one of them. He was big, and strong, but didn't play with any fire/nastiness. Maybe it was that he didn't feel comfortable? Well I think he finally "got it".

That soft play has been turned around. He is solid in pass protection now, and pushes people around in run blocking. I'm especially impressed by his pulling ability. The counters, the stretch plays, and the wr screen, he was able to get out in front and blow up LBs and DBs.

Dockery, I owe you an apology. You've turn the corner, big guy!

Oh well, guess we won't agree on Dock any time soon.

Darth

Im going to merge this since discussion on it has continued.

EA7649 wrote:Lemar Marshall All the way!

i agree with you on this