The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

hkHog wrote:Brunell will be a lot better with these guys than Ramsey. Ramsey's the one who needs big WRs because he has poor accuracy and is erratic.

In preseason Brunell was extremely accurate and that translates into yards after the catch. Ramsey can't even throw a hitch pass without making the reciever have to reach behind him to catch it.

He also threw a lot of nice deep balls as well, I don't know what you guys are talking about. The TD to Farris, quite a few to Brown, etc... Those were all better than any ball Ramsey threw except Thrash's TD and balls that Patten and Moss made great adjustments to. Showed a lot of arm strength on throws to the sideline as well and more zip than Ramsey and that's the truth.

In fact, his best connection was with Brown who was a smaller target than Moss or Patten. These guys are the perfect WRs for Brunell! Just watch Moss pile up his YACs. He'll be very dangerous.

Brunell was playing all pre-season against guys who were not going to play pro ball or who were going to be scrubs. He was throwing to wide open receivers with no one in his face.
Yesterday, a reporter suggested to him that he had beaten out Ramsey in pre-season. Brunell's an honest guy. He refused to accept what the jerk was saying and insisted there was no way to tell that because Ramsey had been playing against top defenders and he had been playing against backups. Take a lesson from someone who knows--Brunell.

And Ramsey continued to "light it up" against the Bears' top defenders, didn't he? Two turnovers in three series...You must be a hoot around the dinner table at the old age home...

crazyhorse1 wrote:

hkHog wrote:Brunell will be a lot better with these guys than Ramsey. Ramsey's the one who needs big WRs because he has poor accuracy and is erratic.

In preseason Brunell was extremely accurate and that translates into yards after the catch. Ramsey can't even throw a hitch pass without making the reciever have to reach behind him to catch it.

He also threw a lot of nice deep balls as well, I don't know what you guys are talking about. The TD to Farris, quite a few to Brown, etc... Those were all better than any ball Ramsey threw except Thrash's TD and balls that Patten and Moss made great adjustments to. Showed a lot of arm strength on throws to the sideline as well and more zip than Ramsey and that's the truth.

In fact, his best connection was with Brown who was a smaller target than Moss or Patten. These guys are the perfect WRs for Brunell! Just watch Moss pile up his YACs. He'll be very dangerous.

Brunell was playing all pre-season against guys who were not going to play pro ball or who were going to be scrubs. He was throwing to wide open receivers with no one in his face.
Yesterday, a reporter suggested to him that he had beaten out Ramsey in pre-season. Brunell's an honest guy. He refused to accept what the jerk was saying and insisted there was no way to tell that because Ramsey had been playing against top defenders and he had been playing against backups. Take a lesson from someone who knows--Brunell.

I don't see why that makes any difference. It is quite obvious that Brunell didn't beat out Ramsey because he wasn't given the chance to do so. The fact is that in the end Ramsey played his way out of the job.

The question is "Do our receives fit with Brunell?" The fact that you think Ramsey may be a better QB doesn't matter. I'm just saying that Brunell showed a bigger arm and more zip than he had last year and that he has the accuracy to hit our small WRs in stride. That doesn't change wether you're playing scrubs or not. He wasn't great last week but at least he didn't lose the game either.

How about a guy named Jimmy Smith? Reminds me of Moss. As i recall Brunell had no prob gettin him the ball. Why dont we just take a look around the league at the other young qb's?
Palmer, even Harrington looked ok, oh and Gus. NO one is going to tell me Ramsey is better than these guys,and these guys SUCK!!

box8276 wrote:.. Why dont we just take a look around the league at the other young qb's? Palmer, even Harrington looked ok, oh and Gus. NO one is going to tell me Ramsey is better than these guys,and these guys SUCK!!

Okay, they suck and they are not here! There are a lot of QBs out there that are not as good as ours! So what are you suggesting? Who would you like to see as our QB, that is available and how soon till he's ready to take over?

These 2 guys are our QBs - it is what it is. I think we can be in the playoffs with these 2 guys. When we go to Campbell will be when we know Joe is getting ready for next year.

I bet many of you also will argue that brunnell put up the better numbers while playing against a second teame D. But how many of P Ram's interceptions where a result of a great defensive play? I couldn't recall any.

Young QB's overthrow sometimes. Young QB's also need to get into synch in game conditions with fast receivers especially going against starting defenses (Pittsburgh and Carolina's D ain't no joke my friend).

According to an offensive player who wishes to remain nameless, Ramsey's INT this past Sunday was a result of the receiver running the wrong way. How many INT's in the preseason were a result of just such miscommunication?? Since Sunday's INT wasn't really Ramsey's fault (yet it goes against his offical stats - much like an offensive turnover for a TD goes against a Defense's scoring stats) just how many of the turnovers are really his fault?? So you've got the INT that was the receiver's fault for turning one way when the ball was going the other way, you have a fumble that we recovered and then you have the murderous hit by Briggs that caused a turnover. Ramsey certainly needs to keep from fumbling (a la an early Rypien) but I won't blame the turnover from the Briggs hit (not many QB's would've held onto that ball).

Brunell may have a better presence in the pocket but thats because he's an old veteran. He only got that way by playing when he was a young QB. Much like Ramsey needs to play now.

Either way... if Brunell rekindles the magic of his former playing days I'll shut up. If not, I reserve an "I told you so" to be deployed at the time when Brunell has not led us to victory and has made our Kicker (whomever he may be) the offensive MVP for the team.

I don't see why that makes any difference. It is quite obvious that Brunell didn't beat out Ramsey because he wasn't given the chance to do so. The fact is that in the end Ramsey played his way out of the job.

Huh ?? Did you watch the preseason?? Did you see the games where Brunell played as many minutes as Ramsey did ?? Did you read the stories and listen to the commentators on TV talking about how little playing time Jason Campbell actually received because Brunell was playing so much?? Seemed like he was getting plenty of chances to me.

And Ramsey continued to "light it up" against the Bears' top defenders, didn't he? Two turnovers in three series...You must be a hoot around the dinner table at the old age home...

Preseason game against the Steelrs he threw an INT and then proceeded to move the chains and "light them up". He followed the INT on Sunday with an 8 play 80yd drive in which he hit Moss( past 20 yards mind you so forget Brunell doing that) in stride leading him away from defenders. He then lead them to the end zone and his pass to ey for what would've been a TD was nullified by a questionable penalty on ey. The INT was the result of the receiver running the wrong way (still counts against a QB but really the WR's fault). That leaves a fumble that was recovered (Brunell had one too) and the fumble on the hit that not many people would be able to hold onto the ball.

thaiphoon wrote:

I bet many of you also will argue that brunnell put up the better numbers while playing against a second teame D. But how many of P Ram's interceptions where a result of a great defensive play? I couldn't recall any.

Young QB's overthrow sometimes. Young QB's also need to get into synch in game conditions with fast receivers especially going against starting defenses (Pittsburgh and Carolina's D ain't no joke my friend).

According to an offensive player who wishes to remain nameless, Ramsey's INT this past Sunday was a result of the receiver running the wrong way. How many INT's in the preseason were a result of just such miscommunication?? Since Sunday's INT wasn't really Ramsey's fault (yet it goes against his offical stats - much like an offensive turnover for a TD goes against a Defense's scoring stats) just how many of the turnovers are really his fault?? So you've got the INT that was the receiver's fault for turning one way when the ball was going the other way, you have a fumble that we recovered and then you have the murderous hit by Briggs that caused a turnover. Ramsey certainly needs to keep from fumbling (a la an early Rypien) but I won't blame the turnover from the Briggs hit (not many QB's would've held onto that ball).

Brunell may have a better presence in the pocket but thats because he's an old veteran. He only got that way by playing when he was a young QB. Much like Ramsey needs to play now.

Either way... if Brunell rekindles the magic of his former playing days I'll shut up. If not, I reserve an "I told you so" to be deployed at the time when Brunell has not led us to victory and has made our Kicker (whomever he may be) the offensive MVP for the team.

i agree with absolutely everything you said in this post, including the end.

thaiphoon wrote:

I don't see why that makes any difference. It is quite obvious that Brunell didn't beat out Ramsey because he wasn't given the chance to do so. The fact is that in the end Ramsey played his way out of the job.

Huh ?? Did you watch the preseason?? Did you see the games where Brunell played as many minutes as Ramsey did ?? Did you read the stories and listen to the commentators on TV talking about how little playing time Jason Campbell actually received because Brunell was playing so much?? Seemed like he was getting plenty of chances to me.

Yes I did watch the preseason and Brunell didn't play a single snap with the starting WRs (I think he got to play one series with the starting o-line though). It certainly wasn't like last year where they shared starting time in the preseason. The job was Ramsey's until he lost it.

The play that convinced me that brunell was the qb this year was when he threw that timing pattern to the back of the end zone to a wr, forgot the guys name, I don't care who was on defense or if the wr isn't on the team anymore, but that pass was perfectly thrown and with enough touch that no one could have dropped the pass or defended that play. After seeing that, I felt it was only time till brunell regained starter status.

Brunell may have a better presence in the pocket but thats because he's an old veteran. He only got that way by playing when he was a young QB. Much like Ramsey needs to play now.

As a young QB Brunell watched #4 in Green Bay

IMO both Brunell and Ramsey did not make Gibbs feel really great about his QB situation this past few months and Ramsey had the job because Gibbs had indicated he would get that opportunity and did not do enough to lose it NOR did Brunell, even with his improved playing, do enough to make Joe change his mind. I think that Gibbs knows what is going on here and he decided that, right now, he feels that Brunell gives his team the best chance to win.

I do not think that Gibbs thinks he can be successful this year with only 1 QB and sooner or later Ramsey will be back under center. I also believe that Ramsey will want to be the best he can be for the team first and then because that is the type of person we have seen here the last few years. Both of our QBs are really great guys - it's a shame that does not make them great QBs

The QB for our team will be able to make the plays to whoever is out there because that is what he does. I really believe that Gibbs thinks he can be in the playoffs this year with these QBs or he would have brought in someone who can.

I also think Brunell is the QB this week not because that's who Gibbs thinks gives him the best opportunity to win but more importantly not to give the other team the opportunity to win.

Ramsey has more physical talents than Brunell but does not have the knowledge or experience that Gibbs wants on the field - yet.

Great Natale wrote:I wasn't sure about having two small, shifty receivers as starters. But I was thinking that with Ramsey and his gun..he could launch it to them and really spread the field. I imagine Brunell would do better with bigger possession type receivers. I don't imagine he will be gunslinging it a la Brett Favre. I see him throwing a lot of screens and 8 step outs.

I don't know how effective Santana Moss can be with Brunell throwing to him. Remember noodle arm Pennington. Moss only exploded when Quincy Carter came in. Moss needs someone who can launch it. Not someone who's forte is throwing 10 yards.

You nailed it with this thread, why the coaching staff can't see it is beyond me

I was trying to get a discussion of our receivers meshing w/ Brunell vs. Ramsey instead of the usual Brunell vs Ramsey tirade. How do you feel Moss/Patten mesh with Brunell/Ramsey's strengths. Again I point to Moss's best production w/ strong armed quarterbacks. Didn't he post his best numbers when Pennington was hurt and Testaverde and Carter were under center? (I feel Pennington and Brunell are in the same noodle arm vein.)

As a young QB Brunell watched #4 in Green Bay

And then as a young QB he played in Jacksonville...


And to get back on-topic ... no our receivers do not "fit" with Brunell.

For Brunell to complete a pass to one of our receivers they will need to have 6 legs, have exoskeletons and run so close to the ground that they are below the tops of the grass. But I doubt an ant will pass a Redskins' physical so no...no WR's match up well with him.

thaiphoon wrote:

As a young QB Brunell watched #4 in Green Bay

And then as a young QB he played in Jacksonville....

My reply was in reference to you post ....

thaiphoon wrote:Brunell may have a better presence in the pocket but thats because he's an old veteran. He only got that way by playing when he was a young QB. Much like Ramsey needs to play now.

He was in his 3rd year when he came here. Had been in every camp, Off-season workout and learned fron Bret. Patrick on the other hand by his 3rd year had held out of part of his first camp, play QB roulette for a year and a half and had been injuried. In 3 years the both had 2 coaches (Mark changed teams), But after 3 years Brunell had only played in 13 games- starting 10 Ramsey started 23 of 29 that he played in.
As Young QBs Ramsey played - Brunell sat

thaiphoon wrote:And to get back on-topic ... no our receivers do not "fit" with Brunell.

For Brunell to complete a pass to one of our receivers they will need to have 6 legs, have exoskeletons and run so close to the ground that they are below the tops of the grass. But I doubt an ant will pass a Redskins' physical so no...no WR's match up well with him.

Now I understand you logic

Different QB's have different timelines. Some take a bit longer. My point was that both played when they were young QB's. You can't compare many 3rd year QB's to a 10 year veteran in terms of pocket presence.

Another thing to note is that Ramsey has started exactly 8 games in a real NFL offense (2 less than Brunell at that point). And many QB's take off in their 3rd year (not all - some take a bit longer) like Peyton Manning and Favre.

And thank you for my logic. I'll pass out if I see Brunell actually pass the ball downfield.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

sch1977 wrote:

JPM36 wrote:No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

Neither can Ramsey

Ramsey made more good throws against the Bears in one quarter than Brunell did in three. Brunell can't even threaten deep. The Cowboys are going to come to the line and do Portis grevious injury. That's going to be the biggest cost of this epical stupidity.

What is with the crush on Ramsey? He fumbled, threw a pick, and failed to generate any points. He cant run this offense, period!

thaiphoon wrote:Different QB's have different timelines. Some take a bit longer. My point was that both played when they were young QB's. You can't compare many 3rd year QB's to a 10 year veteran in terms of pocket presence.

You brought up timelines when you said "young QBs" I compared Ramsey at 3 years versua Brunell at 3 years. Your point was wrong regardless Mark didn't play at all his first two years and Patrick was thrown to the wolves.

thaiphoon wrote:Another thing to note is that Ramsey has started exactly 8 games in a real NFL offense (2 less than Brunell at that point). And many QB's take off in their 3rd year (not all - some take a bit longer) like Peyton Manning and Favre.

This is getting stupid... but I'll play along.

Ramsey played as a young QB but it doesn't count? Why? Steve's Chuck and Duck?.... I could almost agree with that but I won't. I'll go with this idiotic train of thought.
By your count Ramsey has 2 less starts than Brunell had, and I guess you now feel vindicated for this

thaiphoon wrote:Brunell may have a better presence in the pocket but thats because he's an old veteran. He only got that way by playing when he was a young QB. Much like Ramsey needs to play now.

I said Brunell played less at 3 years in his career than Ramsey had at 3 years. You proved yourself correct by throwing out the years that Ramsey impressed you/us the most, and credited all that he did accomplish then to the "old ball coach ".

thaiphoon wrote:And thank you for my logic. I'll pass out if I see Brunell actually pass the ball downfield.

You didn't get your logic from me... everytime I think I have you figured out I get a eyeD10t error while reading you post

Let me put it this way to hopefully get the discussion back on track.... What style of quarterback (if any) would Moss and Patten play best under? A strong-armed deep threat like Ramsey or mid-range touch passser like Brunell?

No more Ramsey vs. Brunell please.

You missed my point entirely...a "young QB" can be 21. He can be 24 ... he can even be 26 (if he holds the clipboard the entire time and never plays a real NFL down). When I use the term "young" I should have stated "inexperienced" (but to me they are interchangeable at times). What matters is playing time. Brunells majority of his playing time came in his professional years of 3 and upwards. Ramsey's came in year 2. Brunell had to learn some of the same lessons in year 3-5 that Ramsey learned (or didn't) in years 1-3.

Yes, Steve's Chuck and duck should be thrown out for not teaching the kid some of the skills he needs to run an NFL offense. While it highlighted skills he did have (strong arm)it didn't help him when he had to convert to a real NFL offense. Brunell may have had 2 coaches but he was learning a real NFL offense the entire time even when on the bench. When Ramsey was on the bench during those chuck and duck years he was basically learning crap. He's had to unlearn probably about 90% of what he learned in the first few years. So here we are with both QB's at the third year mark ... what did Brunell do after his second year of starts? What did Ramsey do ? Ooops we won't know that since he's sitting after 24 starts. What would GB have done had they sat Favre in his third year? What would the Colts have done had they sat Manning his third year? My guess is that the QB's would not have progressed as much as they did. We will never know now with Patrick whether he would've been a good QB for us or not.

And to re-re-re get us back on track...the style that best fits with our WR's is a strong armed QB. The only QB's on the roster that fit that bill are Ramsey and Campbell

thaiphoon wrote:You missed my point entirely...a "young QB" can be 21. He can be 24 ... he can even be 26 (if he holds the clipboard the entire time and never plays a real NFL down). When I use the term "young" I should have stated "inexperienced" (but to me they are interchangeable at times). What matters is playing time. Brunells majority of his playing time came in his professional years of 3 and upwards. Ramsey's came in year 2. Brunell had to learn some of the same lessons in year 3-5 that Ramsey learned (or didn't) in years 1-3.

Yes, Steve's Chuck and duck should be thrown out for not teaching the kid some of the skills he needs to run an NFL offense. While it highlighted skills he did have (strong arm)it didn't help him when he had to convert to a real NFL offense. Brunell may have had 2 coaches but he was learning a real NFL offense the entire time even when on the bench. When Ramsey was on the bench during those chuck and duck years he was basically learning crap. He's had to unlearn probably about 90% of what he learned in the first few years. So here we are with both QB's at the third year mark ... what did Brunell do after his second year of starts? What did Ramsey do ? Ooops we won't know that since he's sitting after 24 starts. What would GB have done had they sat Favre in his third year? What would the Colts have done had they sat Manning his third year? My guess is that the QB's would not have progressed as much as they did. We will never know now with Patrick whether he would've been a good QB for us or not.

And to re-re-re get us back on track...the style that best fits with our WR's is a strong armed QB. The only QB's on the roster that fit that bill are Ramsey and Campbell

Now your telling me what mark learned on the bench while Ramsey learned it on the field or not at all, when your original post was Brunell learned by playing and Ramsey should be given the same chance.

I think you missed your piont

1niksder wrote:

thaiphoon wrote:You missed my point entirely...a "young QB" can be 21. He can be 24 ... he can even be 26 (if he holds the clipboard the entire time and never plays a real NFL down). When I use the term "young" I should have stated "inexperienced" (but to me they are interchangeable at times). What matters is playing time. Brunells majority of his playing time came in his professional years of 3 and upwards. Ramsey's came in year 2. Brunell had to learn some of the same lessons in year 3-5 that Ramsey learned (or didn't) in years 1-3.

Yes, Steve's Chuck and duck should be thrown out for not teaching the kid some of the skills he needs to run an NFL offense. While it highlighted skills he did have (strong arm)it didn't help him when he had to convert to a real NFL offense. Brunell may have had 2 coaches but he was learning a real NFL offense the entire time even when on the bench. When Ramsey was on the bench during those chuck and duck years he was basically learning crap. He's had to unlearn probably about 90% of what he learned in the first few years. So here we are with both QB's at the third year mark ... what did Brunell do after his second year of starts? What did Ramsey do ? Ooops we won't know that since he's sitting after 24 starts. What would GB have done had they sat Favre in his third year? What would the Colts have done had they sat Manning his third year? My guess is that the QB's would not have progressed as much as they did. We will never know now with Patrick whether he would've been a good QB for us or not.

And to re-re-re get us back on track...the style that best fits with our WR's is a strong armed QB. The only QB's on the roster that fit that bill are Ramsey and Campbell

Now your telling me what mark learned on the bench while Ramsey learned it on the field or not at all, when your original post was Brunell learned by playing and Ramsey should be given the same chance.

I think you missed your piont

I think you are missing the point sir...The point of this thread.

sch1977 wrote:

JPM36 wrote:No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

Neither can Ramsey

qoute from gibbs "Patrick can make all the throws required of a proffesional qb"

thaiphoon wrote:Different QB's have different timelines. Some take a bit longer. My point was that both played when they were young QB's. You can't compare many 3rd year QB's to a 10 year veteran in terms of pocket presence.

Another thing to note is that Ramsey has started exactly 8 games in a real NFL offense (2 less than Brunell at that point). And many QB's take off in their 3rd year (not all - some take a bit longer) like Peyton Manning and Favre.

And thank you for my logic. I'll pass out if I see Brunell actually pass the ball downfield.

prediction for monday nights game

12 for 25
149 yards
0 td
2 int.
1 fumble