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NJ SKINSFAN wrote:I do agree with you that alot of the blame must fall on the good governor of Louisiana, but this thread was not about assigning blame. It was about nagin and if he is a good leader. I will take Guilliani!

So,ok. You prefer leaders with mob connections who become famous for hanging around collapsed towers wearing an inspirational Yankees' jacket and looking for photo-ops.
I wonder if the Mayor of New Orleans will now decide that the city should suspend its succession rules and allow him to run for an extra term or two. Or get nabbed for cheating on his wife. Or back Bush in his latest war debacle.

The department of Homeland Security kept the Red Cross from entering the city to feed and provide water for the sick and dying, not the Governor. It also prevented the people in the city from fleeing. Also, the President was in consultation with the Governor in relation to providing relief. There is simply no way Bush can escape blame by hiding behind her skirt. There is also no way he can escape fault for the city being flooded in the first place-- he cut the funding for the levees in full knowledge of the danger (which he lied about). He is also responsible for having destroyed FEMA's ability to handle natural disasters and for scaling back and re-directing its resourses and focus. It was done deliverately because he felt that building levees and such as feeding and caring for storm victims was an "entitlement"...that is, akin to welfare. Bush has been trying to shrink government to the point that it can be put in a bath tub and drowned, as Republicans liked to say nine days ago, if not now. New Orleans was doomed by a combination of Republican policy and incompetence-- the same two horns upon which our country has been impaled by the neocons in virtually every area of government.
If you think Bush didn't send in troops in obedience to protocol and the Governor's wishes, you should be ashamed of your mind. He was and is the President of the United States enjoying the slavish support of the House and the Senate, as well as the Supreme Count. The Governor was and is nobody. It's a joke to think he would have let her stop him from doing anything.

Again, you're thread was whether Nagin was a good leader and not about assigning blame. assigning blame is what you have done in everyone of your post's. I am not disagreeing with you that Nagin did the right thing calling for federal assistance. You say I am misinformed but the only two points you bring up in long winded post's are him calling for federal assistance and an outburst on a radio station. That is not enough information for me to judge a man on his leadership qualities. You do not hear about anything good he has done. You do not answer my question on why he did not use the school buses to evacuate the poorest citizens of NO. Stop trying to reframe your original post and answer what he has done to be a good leader.

Oh, read this link. Maybe the 13.6 billion of federal money Boston went over budget for the big dig could have gone to improove the Levee's and not and pork project for Boston and Teddie Kennedy. I hope you are enjoying your new tunnel and roads.

http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/wastebasket/transportation/4-12-00.htm

Oh, and one other thing, Nagin requested Federal assistance in evacuating the city. Again, his request was denied for reasons that have not been explained yet.

They propably told him to use the 2000 school buses.

Please read the following news story. I will highlight a few important notes below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm

It was announced at a news conference by the Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the hurricane struck early the next morning.

The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?

Yes Mayor why was the evacuation not ordered earlier?

.

The mayor said people going to the Superdome, a sports venue named as an alternative destination for those unable to leave, should bring supplies for several days. He also said police could commandeer any vehicle for the evacuation.

But how much support was there at the Superdome? And how much city transport was actually used? There is a photo showing city school buses still lined up, in waterlogged parking lots, after the hurricane.

Mayor why was there no food and water provided for the shelters? Yes Mayor how much of the city transport was used? We know the answer to that question, the buses are under water while he ran to safe ground in Baton Rouge.

NJ SKINSFAN wrote:

Oh, and one other thing, Nagin requested Federal assistance in evacuating the city. Again, his request was denied for reasons that have not been explained yet.

They propably told him to use the 2000 school buses.

He didn't have drivers. How George Bush of you not to think of that.

NJ SKINSFAN wrote:Sending people to the superdome without providing food and water. 2000 school buses under water which could have been used to evacuate people. Blaming others all while running to Baton Rouge. Yes what a great leader!

Where did you think the school buses would be? Do school buses drive under water? Are you aware that the tax payers of new Orleans had disaster workers on their payroll, bought and paid for and already supposedly in place. FEMA.
Were you not aware that the citizens of New Orleans pay for federal government programs and that the federal government is not an outside agency doing charity work.
Did you, until this moment, now that you think about it, think that people receiving federal assistance do not pre-pay for the service or did you think, like most Republicans, that the federal government is a private concern somehow not really belonging to the people who pay for it?
Are the people of New Orleans expected to provide their own line of defense and then also pay the federal government, their employee, for nothing?
Perhaps you think the people of New Orleans, all bums, should learn to stand on their own and not depend on the services they've already paid for. Maybe they should have their own standing army and missle program? Wimps.

Special note to you tough guy independent types. Get your hands out of the pockets of the rest of us!

The thing that saddened me the most is that we have Americans who truly believe our appointed officials condone pain, suffering and dying. I would like to believe that all Americans to include our elected officials due the very best they can given the circumstances (in this case a category 5 hurricane) regardless of the race, religion or party affiliation.

I agree. I saw a news clip yesterday and the reporter questioned whether rescue operations would have been quicker to respond if the majority of those affected were not lower class minorities. I was furious. They were humans!! and I don't think operations were slowed because of class or color. If anything we need to work on the readiness of our rescue response.

Oh, read this link. Maybe the 13.6 billion of federal money Boston went over budget for the big dig could have gone to improove the Levee's and not and pork project for Boston and Teddie Kennedy. I hope you are enjoying your new tunnel and roads.

This is a classic example of what someone does when they're misinformed!! What on earth does the Big Dig in Boston have to do with the situation in New Orelans? This is absolutely ridiculous!! Stay on topck my friend!!!

And, that topic is this: Ray Nagin did an outstanding job, and if anyone is repsonsible for the chaotic response from the Federal Government, it is not him. As I said, this thread is not about assigning blame, but when someone is saying that Nagin did NOT go a good job, I'm going to defend my position where it might look that I'm assigning blame. Nagin has done the right thing, and that's the whole point of this thread. This is not about the Big Dig or anything else. S

JP Fair,

I have raised several good questions about the performance of Mayor Nagin which you have not responded to. They are as follows:

1. Why did the mayor wait until there was 24 hours left to evacuate the city? He knew at leasr 48 hours in advance that this was a cat 4 or 5 storm. Everybody knew the levee's would not hold up in a hurricane stronger than a Cat 3.

2. Why didn't he use all means of transportation in advance of the storm before? Which it clearly states in the New Orleans emergency response plan under Mayor. did you read that yet? Before the flood crazyhorse, before the flood.

3. Why did he send people to the superdome and then not provide food or water? What were they supposed to do?

Please answer these questions and then we can continue the debate.

Again I agree with you that he did the right thing by contacting the governor and asking for federal assistance. the governor was totally inept, I just don't think he did everything he could do. they were all slow to respond before and after the storm. These questions must be answered before we call him a great leader.

NJ,

O.K. I'll answer your three questions, however, you must answer the questions I ask you as well. You seem to forget at the outset of this debate you said that Nagin didn't follow the "local emergency plan that was in place". Please tell me what the "local emergency plan that was in place" was.

Now, on to your questions, which I might have really nothing to do with the original content of this thread. But, to satisfy you I'll answer them from my perspective.

1. Why did the mayor wait until there was 24 hours left to evacuate the city? He knew at leasr 48 hours in advance that this was a cat 4 or 5 storm.

48 hours before the storm, meteorologists did not know the exact path of the storm, and for that matter, didn't know how strong it would be once it made landfall. 48 hours before the storm hit New Orleans, people didn't even know that New Orleans was in definite danger. At that time, 48 hours or even more, Nagin prepared for evacations and advised residents to evacuate. At that time, it was not a "mandatory" evacuation because they didn't know how dangerous it would be. The following day, 24 hours before the storm made landfall, Nagin ordered a "mandatory" evactuation of the city, but more importantly, contacted the Governor of Louisiana and requested that Martial Law be imposed in New Orelans, and the Federal Government provide both National Guard troops and Military to assist with what was now a mandatory evacuation. As a point of interest, those were not the only two requests that Nagin made, but in my opinion, the most important. Of even more significance, is that Nagin requested the Governor of Louisiana to convene an emergency meeting of FEMA, in other words, a meeting with Federal Agencies to co-ordinate a FEDERAL response to what was coming, as opposed to a local response. His request was denied.

2. Why didn't he use all means of transportation in advance of the storm before? Which it clearly states in the New Orleans emergency response plan under Mayor. did you read that yet?

Because the Mayor of a city doesn't have the Authority to use "all means of transportation". 48 hours before the storm hit, it was a voluntary evacuation because Nagins request to get the FEDS involved was denied. As far as your school bus scenario goes, Nagin requested before the storm that the Federal Government order EVERY bus in the country to go to New Orleans to assist in what was now a mandatory evacuation. BEFORE the storm. You can read all the little news program reports that state they should have did this, or they should have did that, but getting Federal assistance to a Natural disaster is a situation that requires extensive co-odrination between several different Local, State, and Federal agencies. The only way for that to begin is for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to begin their Plan once the Governor, or higher, makes an official request. The Governor did not do such a thing until the day the storm made landfall.

3. Why did he send people to the superdome and then not provide food or water? What were they supposed to do?

The Mayor of NO sent people to the Superdome in anticipation of FEMA taking the lead role in the disaster effort. They did not take the lead role until after the storm hit. Had Nagin's request for Federal Assistance in the form of National Guard troops been granted, food, water, supplies, medicine, and the like would have been at the Superdome at the right time. Unfortunately, the Governor denied the request to provide National Guard troops on the ground until after the storm. I agree that it was a major erros to have thousands of people at the Superdome without food and water, but at a very minimum, Nagin at least had the foresight to realize that people needed to get out of the affected areas. Getting them to the Superdome, in theory, was the right thing to do. Perhaps Nagin erred in assuming that FEMA would act accordingly, but again, this is not assigning blame. If you want to call it NOT taking blame, then so be it.

Nagin, IMO, did what he thought was right, and in time will be proven to be the proper course of action. His angry response to the Governor and the President in light of their refusal to act BEFORE the storm hit, is in my opinion, why I created this thread: Because he is a man of character and integrity. Whether or not he is an effective leader is debatable and will be determined at the ballot box. Nowhere in this thread did I say that Nagin is/was/will be a fantastic leader. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't, but if you look back at my original post, you'll see that I was giving Nagin the Kudos he deserves for acting in a morally sound, from the heart, and in the best interests of his city. I stated that that is what I expect from a Politician in this country. Perhaps it was ME that made the mistake of grouping you in to the category of people who should expect that from our elected Officials. For that, I aplogize. I can see now that you expect something other than honesty, integrity, and working in the best interests of their people, as something that we should expect from our elected Officials.

If you think what Nagin did or didn't do was the sign of ineffective leadership, then you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine. However, Nagin, IMO, has acted with the utmost of dignity, honesty, integrity, and most important of all, in what he thought was the best interests of the city of New Orleans. Nagin is by no means perfect, but he is honest and speaks from the heart. I expect nothing more from our Politicians.

Now, on to my questions for you:

1- What does the "Big Dig" in Boston have to do with anything even remotely connected to the situation in New Orelans?

2- What was the "local emergency plan" in place the day before Hurricane Katrina hit?

3- Does the Mayor of a city in the United States have the authority to directly order FEDERAL troops (National Guard, Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy) to do ANYTHING, much less drive school buses out of the city?

4- Does the Mayor of a city have the authority to order Federal employees to take food, water, medication, supplies, and other necessities to any place within that city?


Much of Nagins role in the whole thing is open to interpretation. You and I clearly disagree on how he performed, however, you state that I am assigning blame etc... I am not assiging blame, at least not in this thread. I believe there is plenty of blame to go around, and hopefully in time that blame will be isolated, corrected, and prevented from happening in the future. But for now, the purpose of this thread was to honor Nagin for the way he acted. In my opinion he acted with integrity, honesty, and dignity. Any errors on his part will be addressed, as they should be.

But, my biggest question of all is how on earth can you create a nexus between the Federal money that was used for the construction of a highway system in Boston and Ray Nagins character? I fail to see any connection at all, but would love you to enlighten me.

Now, with that said, thank you for your unnecessary permission for me to resume the debate.

JP,

I will start by answering your questions.

1- What does the "Big Dig" in Boston have to do with anything even remotely connected to the situation in New Orelans?

This crack was completely way off track and I apologize for this. I was just trying to imply that the 13 billion dollars of federal taxpayers dollars could have been used to fix the levee's and possibbly save a city.

2- What was the "local emergency plan" in place the day before Hurricane Katrina hit?

Again here is the City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Under the direction of the Mayor, the Office of Emergency Preparedness will coordinate activities in accordance with the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan to assure the coordination of training programs for all planning, support, and response agencies. Departments, authorities, agencies, municipalities, and all private response organizations bear the responsibility of ensuring their personnel are sufficiently trained.

In bold is the concept of the plan. Notice under the direction of the mayor. I guess they were not prepared.

Part 2 section I

The safe evacuation of threatened populations when endangered by a major catastrophic event is one of the principle reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. The thorough identification of at-risk populations, transportation and sheltering resources, evacuation routes and potential bottlenecks and choke points, and the establishment of the management team that will coordinate not only the evacuation but which will monitor and direct the sheltering and return of affected populations, are the primary tasks of evacuation planning. Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.

Please pay special attention to this. it is the plan you are looking for that NO had in place. Did the mayor read this plan.

Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.

Please pay special attention to the following paragraph of the City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. this is the concept of the plan, it deals with shelters and provisions of food. it also deals with identifying the transportation network.

II. CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS

The Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedure is designed to deal with all case scenarios of an evacuation in response to the approach of a major hurricane towards New Orleans. It is designed to deal with the anticipation of a direct hit from a major hurricane. This includes identifying the city's present population, its projected population, identification of at-risk populations (those living outside levee protection or in storm-surge areas, floodplains, mobile homes, etc.), in order to understand the evacuation requirements. It includes identifying the transportation network, especially the carrying-capacity of proposed evacuation routes and existing or potential traffic bottlenecks or blockages, caused either by traffic congestion or natural occurrences such as rising waters. Identification of sheltering resources and the establishment of shelters and the training of shelter staff is important, as is the provision for food and other necessities to the sheltered. This preparation function is the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Please feel free to read through the rest of the plan.

3- Does the Mayor of a city in the United States have the authority to directly order FEDERAL troops (National Guard, Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy) to do ANYTHING, much less drive school buses out of the city?

4- Does the Mayor of a city have the authority to order Federal employees to take food, water, medication, supplies, and other necessities to any place within that city?

You are trying to confuse the issue with these last two questions, i am trying to show you that there was a plan in place for the city NO and that there was a lot the mayor could have done before the disaster. You have not been able to grasp this concept. I understand that the mayor can not order federal troops and supplies in to his city without the governer approving this. But the plan clearly states what the mayor is responsible for and i don't think he followed his own plan.

Nowhere in this thread did I say that Nagin is/was/will be a fantastic leader

By the title of your thread "Nagin for president I just assumed you would want your president to be a good leader. I appologize for assuming I now know that being a good leader is not one of your top priorities. You would rather him be a good politician, caring and speak from the heart. I guess that didn't save lives of hundreds or perhaps thousands of NO residents. Only time will tell!

NJ,

To highlight just how wrong you are, let me ask you a question before I answer the rest of your questions. First, let me quote you directly from your previous post. In your previous post, you said:

You have not been able to grasp this concept. I understand that the mayor can not order federal troops and supplies in to his city without the governer approving this.

Are you suggesting that the Governor DOES have that authority? I'd be willing to bet you don't know the answer to that question. In fact, you're probably going to jump straight on to google right now to try and find the answer. In any event, it appears that you're not familiar at all with the way a city, county, state, or even how the United States is structured to receive Federal assistance, troops, or even Federal Taxpayers Dollars. For your own informational purposes, the Governor of a State is in no way connected with the Federal Government as it relates to ordering of Federal resources in response to a Natural disaster. I would suggest that you read the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) website to familiarize yourself with exactly how Federal assistance is provided to individual cities or states in the event that such assistance, in whatever form, is required. Read up on FEMA to find out what their core mission is, what their responsibilities are, how they co-ordinate between local, state, and Federal officials to deploy and utilize Federal resources before (it's important to note that they can act before a disaster as Nagin had requested), during, and after a disaster occurs within the United States.

By reading your post, I can deduce that you're not too familiar with the proper chain of command in how a City can obtain Federal assistance. I'm not going to spell it out for you, but feel free to go to the FEMA website and maybe then, this is my chance to do it to you, we can resume the debate. But for now, I think in order for us to realistically debate the issue of Federal assistance to the city of New Orleans, it would be paramount for you to get up to speed on the proper protocols for a City to request and receive Federal assistance from the Federal Government.

Now, back on topic. And, it's important for you to realize just what the topic is. The topic is that Ray Nagin, at least relating to the Hurricane, has acted in a professional, proper, decent, and compassionate way. If errors were made, then he will be held accountable for them. Before the hurricane hit, while the hurricane was making landfall, and the subsequent response from local, State, and Federal agencies, Ray Nagin acted as I would like my elected officials to act. That is what my thread is about.

Now, addressing your somewhat baffling reasoning behind posting the New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management plan, let me say a few things. First of all, the NOCEM plan was not the "local emergency response plan in place" that you mention. The Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan that you posted, is a document that has been in effect for many years in New Orleans, and if you want to pick it apart paragraph by paragraph, you'll see that Ray Nagin followed everything to the letter. In no instances at all, not that I can see, did he deviate from the established plan. In fact, he had tremendous foresight to realize that the New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan was lacking in the fundamental needs of the city, so he requested Federal intervention before the storm hit.

After reading this Comprehensive plan, it's even more apparent that he acted in accordance with the authority given to him. Specifically, he ordered the evacuation of the city before the storm hit, he ordered evacuation procedures to be put in place, which they did. Nagin began the process of evacuating the city, within the plan that you posted, however, he also advised the Governor that the NOCEM plan was insufficient to deal with a Category 5 hurricane. To that end, he ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city and notified the Governor of Louisiana that this disaster was such that Federal assistance was imperative. If you recall, the city was in the middle of an evacuation when the storm hit. It was not sitting there waiting for the storm to hit, they were in the process of implementing emergency plans. Having implemented the emergency plan, and realizing that this was a storm the likes of which this region had never experienced, he sought the assistance of Federal Authorities, and as I've said many times, he was rebuked. What more could he possibly do? You're not suggesting for one minute that he could handle this storm without Federal Assistance are you? It sure seems from the tone of your arguement, that you expect Nagin to have been able to evacuate the city, prevent looting, repair the levees, rescue people from their homes, all without the help of the Federal Government? If the Mayor of New Orelans ordered thousands and thousands of people to the Superdome knowing full well that there was insufficient food and water there to give to the evacuees, then he should be lambasted accordingly. However, if you read the link that you posted, you'll see that the responsiblity for feeding and clothing evacuees during an evacuation lies with the American Red Cross. Are you saying that the Red Cross were not in place at the Superdome? Go scramble to google and you'll find out that the Red Cross were in place at the Superdome from the moment the Mayor ordered the Superdome to be used as a shelter. If the Mayor failed in any way to feed the evacuees or if he deliberately sent thousands to the Superdome knowing that there would be no food and water for them, then he should be held accountable. But, you'll probably be the only person in the entire Country who says that the Red Cross haven't been working tirelessly to feed those evacuees. My guess is that there was enough food and water there to feed the evacuees until the requested National Guard presence be allowed. Little did he know at that time that the Governor would deny his request for National Guard presence.

Reading the NOCEM plan, the only thing that I can see where Nagin was at fault at was the responsiblity for a well trained and prepared Police Force. New Orelans has long been regarded as the most corrupt Police force in the United States, and the cowards that were on the force at the time the hurricane hit showed their true colors by abandoning the city. As responsibility for the conduct, training, and overall performance of the Police Force lies with the Mayor, then he failed in his responsibility in this regard. While the responsibility of the Police force lies with Nagin, it in now way reflects his lack of character and integrity which I steadfastly maintain that he is a man of character and integrity, which I believe all politicians should have, and sadly, do not have.

I actually expected a better response from you than simply posting what the Mayor is allowed do during an emergency. From your previous post, it seemed like you had documented evidence to support your claim that Nagin was negligent in his handling of the storm, both before, during, and after. To merely put out the "concept" of the emergency plan in place is a very weak arguement.

As for Nagin being an effective leader, I do not live in New Orelans and don't know enough about his past to say with any degree of confidence whether or not I think he'd be a good leader. However, having witnessed how he's handled the recent situation in New Orelans, and as I said in my post, he epitomizes what I think Americans should expect from a Politician. Please don't assume what I want out of a leader. First and foremost, what I want from an elected Official is integrity, honesty, and common decency which Ray Nagin has proven to have. As for how he has been as a leader for New Orelans, ask someone from New Orelans that question.

So, just as you instructed me to answer your questions before I was allowed to resume the debate, I'm telling you, that before we can resume this debate, familiarize yourself with the FEMA mission, the roles and responsibilities of various individuals in requesting Federal assistance, and how such assistance is obtained. Once you do that, get back to me and we can resume the debate.

Actually, NJ, disregard my previous post. Instead of even reading it, sipmly answer one question:

What would YOU have done differently than Ray Nagin did?

I would have forced evacuation of the people of New Orleans prior to the Hurricane and not cared one bit the heat I took for it. I would have put them on buses and gotten them the heck out of dodge. Sorry to jump in there J.P but I've been saying that all along. My maternal instincts would have been to get those people out of there.

Niki, two points related to what you say:

First, Nagin DID order the mandatory evacuation.

Second, there's a difference between a mandatory evacuation and a 'forced' evacuation. For a 'forced' evacuation to take place, the city of New Orelans would have needed Federal troops to complete it in the timeframe that they had.

Now, as far as your maternal instincts go, as Bush himself said, you have to respect the people who just didn't want to give up their property and leave. So, it's a double edged sword. A mandatory evacuation requires you to leave, but there are those that will refuse to leave their own property behind. In your scenario, it would have taken Federal troops to complete a forced evacuation in time for the storm to hit. For the record, Nagin had requested ANY and ALL resources the Federal Government could supply, including that of troops to complete a 'forced' evacuation.

Well I am sorry but at that point I wouldn't have been worried about what was required. And I'm speaking on an emotional level.

The fact that so many people were in one place was a nightmare in my head from the begining. I had visions of the superdome's roof caving in.

First, Nagin DID order the mandatory evacuation.

He ordered the evacuation but did not give the poor people, people without transportation and the sick a way to get out. He gave them a shelter with no food and water. Lets not get bogged down with fema and federal officials, because I don't think the people of NO care.

To answer your question I would have evacuated the people of NO by any means possible. at the very least provide food and water to the shelters.

I have enjoyed debating with you and suggest we agree to disagree. I respect your opinions and only wish you the best. I am not willing to make Nagin president just yet.

NJ SKINSFAN wrote:I am not willing to make Nagin president just yet.

not while hillary is available!

To answer your question I would have evacuated the people of NO by any means possible. at the very least provide food and water to the shelters.

WOW, you'll make a perfect politician! An excellent way to answer a question, just give a broad hypothetical response without any specific type of actions. "any means possible"? Give me specifics, not just "any means possible". That's almost as weak as your comparing the Big Dig in Boston to the Hurricane in New Orleans.

Lets not get bogged down with fema and federal officials, because I don't think the people of NO care.

What kind of double standard is this? First, you said to pay particular attention to the New Orelans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan, and now you say let's not get bogged down in FEMA and Federal Officials? You're sadly mistaken when you think the people of NO don't care. They DO care, and that's why they want answers to why they didn't get the Federal help that they so desperately needed. I suggest we you DO get familiar with FEMA and what their mission is, what they're responsible for, and who is allowed to request Federal assistance. You talk a lot about what you think Nagin didn't do, yet you use nothing but vague "all means possible" to specify what you yourself would do.

If you want to assign blame, and I'm sure the time will come when such a thing is done, but in order to start figuring out what went wrong, you first have to understand the chain of command, and who has the authority to do certain things. If you do your homework on the matter, you'll see that Nagin followed proper procedures, did as much as he could, and was denied the Federal assistance that he insisted was necessary.

Your opinion of Nagin is just that, an opinion, as is mine. But, when it comes time to hold people responsible for certain failures, you'll see that the ones who will be reprimanded or found to have been negligent, will be at a higher level than the Mayor.

I respect your opinion of Nagin, however different it is than mine, but Nagin did just what you would have done....."by any means possible". Perhaps he could have done more, hindsight is 20/20. But, he did what he did with integrity, honesty, and never attempted to cover anything up. You'll see, there will be attempts far above him to cover up certain failures within the Government and when it's all said and done, Nagin will remain a man of integrity and honor.

As for Nagin for President, I guess not only do you fail to see what the proper protocols are for requesting Federal assistance, but you've never heard this type of humorous symbolism either.

Well I am sorry but at that point I wouldn't have been worried about what was required. And I'm speaking on an emotional level.

Speaking from an emotional level is understandable, however, it is unrealistic to think that Nagin could have acted on an emotional level to change certain things. Specifically, the Constitution of the United States gives no authority whatsoever to a Mayor of a city to order Federal troops to do anything. It was and is impossible to expect a Mayor of any U.S. City to singlehandedly order Federal Troops to do anything, much less order them to evacuate individuals from their property. Should those people have evacuated, yes they should have. But, 1/3 of the New Orleans Police Force didn't even report for duty after the hurricane hit. Nagin had no control over that, although he is responsible for the Police force in NO. To that extent, Nagin failed in his duty as Mayor to maintain a Police Force that could assist in the evacuation. But, from a logistical standpoint, Nagin had no authority whatsoever to order Federal troops to enter New Orelans. He does, however, have the authority to order local Law Enforcement Officials to assist in the evacuation. He did just that, in addition to 'requesting' Federal assistance through proper channels.

Nagin's in the clear and so is the Governor. Bush is nailed. Here's proof enough:

Date: 8/27/2005


Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina


BATON ROUGE—Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:
• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.
• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.
• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.


Mr. President
Page Two
August 27, 2005


• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.



The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:
• FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.


I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,




Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
Enclosure


sh is not> Here's proof enough.

Don't let the the liar get you guys.


What the absentee Governor asked for is merely a formality dealing mainly with financial assistance under current law.


Constitutional law throughtout the last two centuries severly limits any President's power when dealing with an emergency situation in any particular state (I'm hoping crazyhorse tries to get into a Constitutional law debate with me but that won't happen, because he realizes that he'll lose that).


He'll try to argue that Bush was on "vacation", not realizing that just because he's not in D.C. (like every other Federally-elected official) means that his vacation is like you and I's. Anyone who doesn't understand that the President, be it Republican or Democrat, never truly goes on "vacation", but merely shifts residences for a short period of time, shouldn't even be in this discussion.

After I destroy that argument, he'll try to shift focus to Rice's shopping spree in NYC, again not realizing that the intelligent people here understand that the SoS isn't involved with domestic stife.

I could go back and forth, refuting his juvenile positions, always able to counter with the ultimate rebuttal, (Democratic Mayor Nagin blaming the chaos on Democratic Governor Blanco while praising FEMA and Bush), but then you'd all miss my secret Bleu Cheese Dip recipe which will probably be in my respone to the next post.



BTW, someone needs to thank me for saving probably 5 pages of pointless threads with that Cliff Notes version of how it will be.

(Democratic Mayor Nagin blaming the chaos on Democratic Governor Blanco while praising FEMA and Bush)[

Curveball, I realize your post was geared towards crazyhorse, and probably rightfully so. But, could you clarify to me where it is written that Nagin "blaming the chaos on Democratic Governor Blanco" while praising FEMA and Bush.

My understanding of it, and I like to consider myself a good source on the functions of the Federal Government and how the whole Federal assistance to individualt States works. But, my understanding is that Nagin requested, through the Governor, that Blanco and Bush get together with FEMA to hammer out a more extensive Federal Assistance plan. Brango denied Nagins request, and subsequently made the request for Federal assistance (but failed to make the request for martial law) the day after the hurricane hit. Nagin stated all along that all he wanted to do was get Branco and Bush to meet to discuss an appropriate response becuase she had rebuked his previous response. Many may criticise Nagins infamous angry radio interview, but you've gotta remember, his request for Federal assistance had been denied and he was watching his city become a state of lawless anarchy.

Once Bush met with Nagin, Nagin admitted that he was satisfied with Bush's promise for further assistance, not for his past assistance, but he was satisfied with Bush proposed future Federal response.

I'm extremely knowledgable on the inner working of the Federal Government, being a manager of a VERY MAIN player in this particular beurocracy, and I can see first hand where certain errors were made, and errors that will be made public in the coming week. I won't reveal what those errors are, but from what I've been able to see, Nagin followed his authority to the letter, and had every right to question Brancos response to his request, and yet still praise Bush for his promise of future response. To that end, Bush has lived up to his end of the bargain. Since Bush toured New Orelans, the Federal assistance has come pouring in. But, that's not when it was needed the most. It was needed the day before the hurricane when Nagin had requested much more assistance.

Please don't look at my response as one of allying myself with crazyhorses response, becuase in theory, I disagree with it