The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Gibbs' Hog wrote:

curveball wrote:How this suprises anyone is beyond me. Palmeiro was a high average/low power guy for his first 5 full season. He averaged less than 16 homers a year over more than 150 games a season despite spending time in the relatively homer friendly confines of Wrigley.

Canseco went to Texas mid-season in 1992 and Palmeiro jumps up to 37 homers in 1993 and has stayed at that type of level since.

How does a guy go from an 8 homer 600 AB season to one of the top 10 homer guys of all-time if it wasn't juice.

By this reasoning, you should also state that Brian Roberts is juicin'. He's never hit more than 4 or 5 homers in a season, and all of a sudden he's a machine. Definately pumped, by your assertions.

One does have to question him. Look at someone like Brady Anderson or Bret Boone. Huge jumps in power production from people one doesn't expect.


But you don't see the coincidence between the timing of Palmeiro's power surge and Canseco's allegations?

curveball wrote:One does have to question him. Look at someone like Brady Anderson or Bret Boone. Huge jumps in power production from people one doesn't expect.


But you don't see the coincidence between the timing of Palmeiro's power surge and Canseco's allegations?

First of all, you can question all you want regarding Brian Roberts. And most people would probably agree with you that if someone jumps in their production, suspicions can be aroused. but I don't think you can just classify every athlete that has "suddenly" risen to a higher plateau as someone who started taking steroids. Sure, it is indeed the case with many athletes, but not with all.


From a baseball standpoint, I don't think you can just assume that a consistent hit-producer that "suddenly" ups his HR count is taking 'roids. I put "suddenly" in quotation marks because it does not happen overnight. It usually happens between seasons, where players are constantly working to improve their game.

There's a lot of players that have high batting averages and low HR counts. My assertion (for the non-'roiders) is that if you can consistently hit for extra bases, getting your HR count up is not as hard as it seems. For many guys (IMO, Brian Roberts included), all it takes is getting the bat under the ball just a little more than before, so that it carries at a slightly higher trajectory. Ichiro is an amazing hitter - and I'll bet he could get more HRs by altering his swing technique a little bit. Have you seen him hit? He's always kind of falling away and running when he makes contact. But why would he risk his batting average by changing his swing? There's just no need.


On a personal note, I play golf. I am always trying to get more distance on my drives. I am an unmotivated "worker-outer", so gaining weight and muscle are pretty much out of the question, just to improve my driving distance. But I also don't need those things; I choose a club with a different loft (altering the trajectory), I position my body differently to be more balanced and harness more energy (hip turn and recoil), and I swing the club with a faster velocity (higher club-head speed = more force).


I don't know if Raffi took steroids or not (intenionally or unintentionally), but just because someone starts performing better than they could before doesn't automatically mean they are cheating.

Your right......a big jump in performance doesn't mean they are cheating. But until they get they get a real test program in place there will always be suspicions of people cheating.

Portis is said to have bulked up some in the offseason. Noone is accusing him of cheating, because he gets tested. Unlike baseball the NFL has a real testing program set up.

We will always accuse baseball players of cheating until the union stops fighting Congress and the commisioner and gets a real testing program set up.

Redskins Rule wrote:Your right......a big jump in performance doesn't mean they are cheating. But until they get they get a real test program in place there will always be suspicions of people cheating.

Portis is said to have bulked up some in the offseason. Noone is accusing him of cheating, because he gets tested. Unlike baseball the NFL has a real testing program set up.

We will always accuse baseball players of cheating until the union stops fighting Congress and the commisioner and gets a real testing program set up.

I think you're right. But the problem seems to not be the actual testing procedures, so much as what can be detected in the tests.

I've been following some cycling ( ), ok...the Tour de France, over the past few years, and they have very strict standards with regards to substance detection. I know that even a fraction of a percentage difference in erythropoietin (EPO) levels in a person's body can constitute an infraction in the anti-doping standards. The ironic thing here is that a person's kidneys control this hormone, and can slightly raise or lower its own levels when in rest.

I read an article recently (if I find where I read it, I will post) that suggested that it is possible, although highly unusual, for an athlete's own body to alter the production of certain hormones, which could adversely affect a drug test. In fact, the article said that anti-doping agencies in cycling (UCI, for example) usually test for substances such as EPO before a race, because the body will release any above-average levels during the course of a long, grueling stage race.

But another problem is that some people produce more natural EPO than others.


Either way, as the tests keep getting better, the drugs keep getting better. It's apparently damn hard to get a truly accurate reading of EPO levels in one's blood, and if an athlete uses a small enough amount, it can be undetectable.

I hope that all sports will eventually have the ability to detect any and all illegal substance. But I think that we will always have newer and better things - again, better tests lead to more creative solutions for the drugs.


Here's a pretty technical, but interesting article I found on this issue:


http://www.dailypeloton.com/epo.asp

Well, so much for Palmeiro's implied story that he inadvertantly took a banned substance, probably through a legal supplement.

He tested positive for Stanozolol. Unless a veteranarian snuck in his house and violated him while he was sleeping, he knew exactly what was going into his body.

curveball wrote:he knew exactly what was going into his body.

Of course he did Jose showed him how to do it

Frankly, the guy doesn't look like a steroid user to me-- I know the look and he doesn't have it. He's also without the weight of the habitual user. His power comes from his wrists and timing, not muscle (Ernie Banks and Henry Aaron similiar quick bat sluggers without traditional power). If he, in fact, is not the victim of a lab screw up, he might have taken something or used a salve that contained steroids without understanding that he was doing so. Would he have deliberately taken steroids at this time, knowing he was under scrunity. Probably not. A habitual user or offender. No. I don't think so.

P.S. I am a White Sox fan and do not follow Palmeiri or have
any real interest in him, except in the fact that he does not seem to fit the profile of a steroid user. I think he should continue to protest his innocence... and the possibily should be looked into seriously. Labs are notorious for cross contamination, labelling errors, and all sorts of mistakes. Bad lab work cannot be absolutely ruled out, especially when the accused protests his innocence and his body does not show evidence of steroid use.

Merged your thread because there was already a thread on the Palmeiro situation.