The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

yeah that might be jumping to conclusions...who knows

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:The bad thing about Fiddy is that while, yes, his numbers are nice, when it counts, he literally drops the ball. It's agonizing to see that out of our "best current receiver". A mutual agreement to terminate our relationship with him is the best thing for both parties.

Who is Fiddy? And all of you just want this guy gone and will rose color whatever you want, but the plain simple fact is GARDNER IS THE MOST PRODUCTIVE WR ON OUR TEAM!!! I don't care about anything else, without him we have a bunch of number 2 or 3 receivers. You can say he drops balls at the wrong times, but I can remeber Gary Clark dropping a sure touch down almost every game, but he made up for it. You don't think that Moss drops passes! He dropded a higher percentage last year. And I would wager Patten does too. And here is another tid bit, Gardner hasn't missed a game!

heres another tid bit skinsfan#33. GARNDER IF HE DOES STAY WILL BE 5TH STRING. and he is definatley not the most productive reciever on the team. Moss is our #1 and Patten is our #2 and Trash or Dmac or Jacobs will be our #3.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

die cowboys die wrote:i don't know how you and some others can say that gardner is better than our other receivers.

the stats don't back up your argument either- over the past 3 or 4 years, patten and moss have each had about the same average amount of receptions per year as gardner (which is truly sorry because patten was mostly a #3 WR in NE!), yet they hold significantly higher yards-per-catch averages.
if you look at james thrash's numbers from 2000-2003 (before he took a backup role with us last year), they aren't too far off what gardner was producing.

thrash was an undrafted free agent.
patten came into the league as a free agent after playing in the arena league.
gardner was the #15 pick in the draft.

DCD,
Before you bring up stats, maybe you should look them up.

Compared to Moss - Gardner has 76 more receptions, 581 more yards and 3 more TDs. (are TDs game changing plays, because if they are he has average 5.6 a year)
Compared to Patten - Gardner has 62 more receptions, 484 more yards and 6 more TDs (again, are TDs game changing plays?)
Compare to Thrash (4 years prior to the last year, because that is what you said) - Gardner has 7 more catches, and 5 more TDs. That was his most productive 4 years of his career.

And I would wager there isn't a fan on this site that would say that Gardner had a better QB situation in those four years. Quite the opposite, Thrash had D Mac (the real one not McCants), Moss had Vinny T. and Pennington, and Patten had some guy named Bradey.

So everyone wanting Gardner gone, just remember that he IS CURRENTLY OUR MOST PRODUCTIVE WR. And our WR corps will be worse without him!

Currently our "best receiver"? You are on crack. Has Gardner EVER broken a tackle and run for a touchdown? NEVER. Gardner has no speed and no heart.
So you know what you can do with your stats.

washington53 wrote:heres another tid bit skinsfan#33. GARNDER IF HE DOES STAY WILL BE 5TH STRING. and he is definatley not the most productive reciever on the team. Moss is our #1 and Patten is our #2 and Trash or Dmac or Jacobs will be our #3.

Do you mean to call him "Trash" Its is Thrash. Hopefully that was a typo b/c he is a hardworking player.

SKINZ_DOMIN8 wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

die cowboys die wrote:i don't know how you and some others can say that gardner is better than our other receivers.

the stats don't back up your argument either- over the past 3 or 4 years, patten and moss have each had about the same average amount of receptions per year as gardner (which is truly sorry because patten was mostly a #3 WR in NE!), yet they hold significantly higher yards-per-catch averages.
if you look at james thrash's numbers from 2000-2003 (before he took a backup role with us last year), they aren't too far off what gardner was producing.

thrash was an undrafted free agent.
patten came into the league as a free agent after playing in the arena league.
gardner was the #15 pick in the draft.

DCD,
Before you bring up stats, maybe you should look them up.

Compared to Moss - Gardner has 76 more receptions, 581 more yards and 3 more TDs. (are TDs game changing plays, because if they are he has average 5.6 a year)
Compared to Patten - Gardner has 62 more receptions, 484 more yards and 6 more TDs (again, are TDs game changing plays?)
Compare to Thrash (4 years prior to the last year, because that is what you said) - Gardner has 7 more catches, and 5 more TDs. That was his most productive 4 years of his career.

And I would wager there isn't a fan on this site that would say that Gardner had a better QB situation in those four years. Quite the opposite, Thrash had D Mac (the real one not McCants), Moss had Vinny T. and Pennington, and Patten had some guy named Bradey.

So everyone wanting Gardner gone, just remember that he IS CURRENTLY OUR MOST PRODUCTIVE WR. And our WR corps will be worse without him!

Currently our "best receiver"? You are on crack. Has Gardner EVER broken a tackle and run for a touchdown? NEVER. Gardner has no speed and no heart.
So you know what you can do with your stats.

Does anyone read what I write? Facts are facts. No ifs ands or butts, Rod Gardner is our MOST PRODUCTIVE WR. The facts don't lie. I am not happy with the way he has played and would like and upgrade, but there is not on eon our team. Stops using your hearts. The facts are undeniable!

Great Natale wrote:

washington53 wrote:heres another tid bit skinsfan#33. GARNDER IF HE DOES STAY WILL BE 5TH STRING. and he is definatley not the most productive reciever on the team. Moss is our #1 and Patten is our #2 and Trash or Dmac or Jacobs will be our #3.

Do you mean to call him "Trash" Its is Thrash. Hopefully that was a typo b/c he is a hardworking player.

Sorry i will edit that right now....
I would never call him trash. I love Thrash. I was just typing really fast

I'm wondering if Gibbs isn't working on a deal for DE Howard from NO. At one point, the 'boys were rumored to be after him. But, after their draft, they probably don't need him now. How about Gardner, next year's 3rd and a 2nd in 2007 for Howard? I know, I know, Howard will want tons of cash and we don't have the cap space...which is true.

He's a double digit sack guy...a real good player...but...can we afford him?

I'm the guy who has been saying -- I like their fiscal restraint this off-season...now they've overpaid Moss, got 2 @ 1st rounders (one a QB) who will cost us some cap space.

skinsfan#33 wrote:DCD,
Before you bring up stats, maybe you should look them up.

Compared to Moss - Gardner has 76 more receptions, 581 more yards and 3 more TDs. (are TDs game changing plays, because if they are he has average 5.6 a year)
Compared to Patten - Gardner has 62 more receptions, 484 more yards and 6 more TDs (again, are TDs game changing plays?)
Compare to Thrash (4 years prior to the last year, because that is what you said) - Gardner has 7 more catches, and 5 more TDs. That was his most productive 4 years of his career.

And I would wager there isn't a fan on this site that would say that Gardner had a better QB situation in those four years. Quite the opposite, Thrash had D Mac (the real one not McCants), Moss had Vinny T. and Pennington, and Patten had some guy named Bradey.

wow, where do i start with this nonsense? first of all, i spent a good deal of time looking at the stats and using my brain to analyze them beyond the mere "CAREER TOTALS" line, a step you apparently skipped. you PROVED my point when you said "gardner has 7 more catches and 5 more TDs" than thrash. THRASH WAS NOT EVEN DRAFTED! and yet he is basically on par with gardner during his most productive 4 years. we are talking about around 2 catches and 1 TD more per year! that is pathetic, and a meaningless statistical difference.

and please don't try to sell me on the QB thing- donovan mcnabb is a great playmaker but he was not always a very good passer during thrash's time with him. ok, he has gotten a lot better in the past year or two but for a long time he was very inaccurate, and usually just threw 2 yard dump-offs to his tight end, who usually caught the ball while laying on the ground.
and vinny testaverde? our QBs have been at least as good as him during gardner's time here. chad pennington is a very good QB but was only healthy for ONE season with moss (a season in which moss caught 75 passes for 1105 yards).

i won't knock brady, but keep in mind patten was the #3 WR so he's not going to get as many passes thrown his way. yet in his last 4 full seasons (he was injured in 2003) he caught 194 passes for 2919 yards! in 4 seasons, gardner caught 227 passes for 2997 yards. can you not see how those stats are almost exactly equal in terms of their practical value? i will remind you ROD GARDNER WAS THE #15 PICK IN THE 1st ROUND OF THE DRAFT WHO SPENT 2 YEARS AS THE #1 WR, DAVID PATTEN WAS A #3 WR WHO PLAYED IN THE ARENA LEAGUE!!!.


yes, let's probe into that "2 years as #1 WR" issue a bit further as well. gardner and moss have both had 2 seasons as a #1 WR. first and most obvious, moss was PROMOTED to #1 after 2 years, whereas gardner was DEMOTED from#1 after 2 years. that means gardner has proven himself unworthy of that position, whereas moss has proven himself worthy.

as far as the stats go, they are irrefutable. MOSS IS A MORE PRODUCTIVE #1 WR THAN GARDNER:

GARDNER 2001: 46 catches, 741 yards
GARDNER 2002: 71 catches, 1006 yards
TOTAL AS #1 WR: 117 catches, 1747 yards

MOSS 2003 74 catches, 1105 yards
MOSS 2004: 45 catches, 838 yards
TOTAL AS #1 WR: 119 catches, 1943

it gets much worse for gardner if you just look at the last 2 years (and what is more important than recent performance?):

GARDNER 2003: 59 catches, 600 yards
GARDNER 2004: 51 catches, 650 yards
TOTAL LAST 2 YRS: 110 catches, 1250 yards

the number of catches is almost the same but the difference in yards is ridiculous. you can argue "we were throwing short" but that point is invalid for a couple reasons- first of all, spurrier still wanted to go deep all game long in 2003. but gardner still got shorter passes because he simply CAN NOT GET OPEN, he can't beat anyone deep. that is not a problem that moss or patten have ever had.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

SKINZ_DOMIN8 wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

die cowboys die wrote:i don't know how you and some others can say that gardner is better than our other receivers.

the stats don't back up your argument either- over the past 3 or 4 years, patten and moss have each had about the same average amount of receptions per year as gardner (which is truly sorry because patten was mostly a #3 WR in NE!), yet they hold significantly higher yards-per-catch averages.
if you look at james thrash's numbers from 2000-2003 (before he took a backup role with us last year), they aren't too far off what gardner was producing.

thrash was an undrafted free agent.
patten came into the league as a free agent after playing in the arena league.
gardner was the #15 pick in the draft.

DCD,
Before you bring up stats, maybe you should look them up.

Compared to Moss - Gardner has 76 more receptions, 581 more yards and 3 more TDs. (are TDs game changing plays, because if they are he has average 5.6 a year)
Compared to Patten - Gardner has 62 more receptions, 484 more yards and 6 more TDs (again, are TDs game changing plays?)
Compare to Thrash (4 years prior to the last year, because that is what you said) - Gardner has 7 more catches, and 5 more TDs. That was his most productive 4 years of his career.

And I would wager there isn't a fan on this site that would say that Gardner had a better QB situation in those four years. Quite the opposite, Thrash had D Mac (the real one not McCants), Moss had Vinny T. and Pennington, and Patten had some guy named Bradey.

So everyone wanting Gardner gone, just remember that he IS CURRENTLY OUR MOST PRODUCTIVE WR. And our WR corps will be worse without him!

Currently our "best receiver"? You are on crack. Has Gardner EVER broken a tackle and run for a touchdown? NEVER. Gardner has no speed and no heart.
So you know what you can do with your stats.

Does anyone read what I write? Facts are facts. No ifs ands or butts, Rod Gardner is our MOST PRODUCTIVE WR. The facts don't lie. I am not happy with the way he has played and would like and upgrade, but there is not on eon our team. Stops using your hearts. The facts are undeniable!

I noticed how you conveniently dodged my points.

Let me ask again: Your favorite Receiver, Gardner, has he
EVER broken a tackle?

The answer is obviously NO. So this is what you will do. Whichever team takes your #1 Receiver, you will be a fan of THAT team because you obviously don't know anything about football and I don't want you as a Skins fan. You seem to love mediocrity while the vast majority of us loathe it.

fredp45 wrote:I'm wondering if Gibbs isn't working on a deal for DE Howard from NO. At one point, the 'boys were rumored to be after him. But, after their draft, they probably don't need him now. How about Gardner, next year's 3rd and a 2nd in 2007 for Howard? I know, I know, Howard will want tons of cash and we don't have the cap space...which is true.

He's a double digit sack guy...a real good player...but...can we afford him?

I'm the guy who has been saying -- I like their fiscal restraint this off-season...now they've overpaid Moss, got 2 @ 1st rounders (one a QB) who will cost us some cap space.

We can't afford to trade for him OR sign him. He's too good and worth too much to the Saints.

die cowboys die wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:DCD,
Before you bring up stats, maybe you should look them up.

Compared to Moss - Gardner has 76 more receptions, 581 more yards and 3 more TDs. (are TDs game changing plays, because if they are he has average 5.6 a year)
Compared to Patten - Gardner has 62 more receptions, 484 more yards and 6 more TDs (again, are TDs game changing plays?)
Compare to Thrash (4 years prior to the last year, because that is what you said) - Gardner has 7 more catches, and 5 more TDs. That was his most productive 4 years of his career.

And I would wager there isn't a fan on this site that would say that Gardner had a better QB situation in those four years. Quite the opposite, Thrash had D Mac (the real one not McCants), Moss had Vinny T. and Pennington, and Patten had some guy named Bradey.

wow, where do i start with this nonsense? first of all, i spent a good deal of time looking at the stats and using my brain to analyze them beyond the mere "CAREER TOTALS" line, a step you apparently skipped. you PROVED my point when you said "gardner has 7 more catches and 5 more TDs" than thrash. THRASH WAS NOT EVEN DRAFTED! and yet he is basically on par with gardner during his most productive 4 years. we are talking about around 2 catches and 1 TD more per year! that is pathetic, and a meaningless statistical difference.

and please don't try to sell me on the QB thing- donovan mcnabb is a great playmaker but he was not always a very good passer during thrash's time with him. ok, he has gotten a lot better in the past year or two but for a long time he was very inaccurate, and usually just threw 2 yard dump-offs to his tight end, who usually caught the ball while laying on the ground.
and vinny testaverde? our QBs have been at least as good as him during gardner's time here. chad pennington is a very good QB but was only healthy for ONE season with moss (a season in which moss caught 75 passes for 1105 yards).

i won't knock brady, but keep in mind patten was the #3 WR so he's not going to get as many passes thrown his way. yet in his last 4 full seasons (he was injured in 2003) he caught 194 passes for 2919 yards! in 4 seasons, gardner caught 227 passes for 2997 yards. can you not see how those stats are almost exactly equal in terms of their practical value? i will remind you ROD GARDNER WAS THE #15 PICK IN THE 1st ROUND OF THE DRAFT WHO SPENT 2 YEARS AS THE #1 WR, DAVID PATTEN WAS A #3 WR WHO PLAYED IN THE ARENA LEAGUE!!!.


yes, let's probe into that "2 years as #1 WR" issue a bit further as well. gardner and moss have both had 2 seasons as a #1 WR. first and most obvious, moss was PROMOTED to #1 after 2 years, whereas gardner was DEMOTED from#1 after 2 years. that means gardner has proven himself unworthy of that position, whereas moss has proven himself worthy.

as far as the stats go, they are irrefutable. MOSS IS A MORE PRODUCTIVE #1 WR THAN GARDNER:

GARDNER 2001: 46 catches, 741 yards
GARDNER 2002: 71 catches, 1006 yards
TOTAL AS #1 WR: 117 catches, 1747 yards

MOSS 2003 74 catches, 1105 yards
MOSS 2004: 45 catches, 838 yards
TOTAL AS #1 WR: 119 catches, 1943

it gets much worse for gardner if you just look at the last 2 years (and what is more important than recent performance?):

GARDNER 2003: 59 catches, 600 yards
GARDNER 2004: 51 catches, 650 yards
TOTAL LAST 2 YRS: 110 catches, 1250 yards

the number of catches is almost the same but the difference in yards is ridiculous. you can argue "we were throwing short" but that point is invalid for a couple reasons- first of all, spurrier still wanted to go deep all game long in 2003. but gardner still got shorter passes because he simply CAN NOT GET OPEN, he can't beat anyone deep. that is not a problem that moss or patten have ever had.

DCD,
If you take "snap shots" of almost any stat, you can make it say whatever you want. You did put some thought into looking up your stats. You looked at areas that will make your case stronger. This is great if you just want to feel better about your view, but when you have been proven wrong the most dignified thing to do is just admit your mistakes. Inatead you chose to insult me.

Gardner was "demoted" to #2 after 2 years because we signed Coles. Moss was promoted to a #1 Wr because we signed Coles. And yes in Moss' best season he was a little better than Gardner, but he had Chap Pennington all year. Gardners best season he had Shane Mathews, Danny Awful, and a rookie Ramsey. You can't tell me that that is not impressive. Gardner will never be a super star and he will always drops some balls, but he is worth almost 6 TDs every year. He has been consistant and healthy. Moss might end up being great and I hope he does. But so far he has been less productive then Gardner so far in his career.
I don't understand your when Gardner was drafted arguement, because "WE HAVE ALREADY DRAFTED HIM! Now the only thing that matters is how you produce and again we are about to cut our most productive WR. Just think, Gardner's best year was as a #1 WR, which is what he would be on our team without Coles.

Perhaps I'm missing the point of all the Gardner bashing. Didn't he try to win for us? Did he ever hold out or fail to report or make an ass of himself? Just what did he do wrong?
His stats look pretty good, not great, but pretty good. Look who was throwing to the man? The various systems! Why the bashing? Expecially from you guys you defend the continued nonsense from the FO!

Gardner can contribute to the team but it might have to be by leaving forever.