The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

USS Redskin wrote:Let me get this straight:
Plan:
Let Fred Smoot go, a proven corner who was a locker room leader, played hurt, a fan fave and wanted to stay. Would’ve cost the team another $500,000 than they offered to keep him.
You draft a rookie Corner, who I am sure will be good in a year or so and in a few years will have to let go to b/c he will be too expensive.
You pass up possibly the next TO in the draft, even though you have no go to Receivers because….
You traded a whiney Laverneous Coles because 90 catches isn’t enough balls thrown his way and take a $9 million cap hit, which is like 15% of the cap.
You let a “core” linebacker go to a hated division rival. Nice Core guy – go to the Giants. Though, in his defense, Dallas would have been worse.
You slap your starting QB in the face for the 3rd time by drafting a rookie QB in the 1st round (who some say was 3rd round material).
1st Slap: Signing a over the hill, has-been in Brunell.
2nd Slap: Letting the over the hill back-up start 9 horrid games and saying he played like a hero in each one, before he finally starts the young QB.
3rd Slap: Drafting a potentially bad or good rookie, who, at least is mobile.
No way of getting around this.
That is a HUGE slap in the face. BAM – CRACK – SMASH – I was never a big Ramsey fan but I feel for him now. This sucks. They can spin it all they want. SMACK!
What’s up with the Team that I love so much?

Alot of this is "life in the NFL" As I said in another post winning cures all...players don't sign with the Redskins to win, they sign to get paid. If we were winning, don't think for a second that Smoot wouldn't have signed..he may have signed for less!

USS Redskin wrote:Let me get this straight:
Plan:
Let Fred Smoot go, a proven corner who was a locker room leader, played hurt, a fan fave and wanted to stay. Would’ve cost the team another $500,000 than they offered to keep him.
You draft a rookie Corner, who I am sure will be good in a year or so and in a few years will have to let go to b/c he will be too expensive.
You pass up possibly the next TO in the draft, even though you have no go to Receivers because….
You traded a whiney Laverneous Coles because 90 catches isn’t enough balls thrown his way and take a $9 million cap hit, which is like 15% of the cap.
You let a “core” linebacker go to a hated division rival. Nice Core guy – go to the Giants. Though, in his defense, Dallas would have been worse.
You slap your starting QB in the face for the 3rd time by drafting a rookie QB in the 1st round (who some say was 3rd round material).
1st Slap: Signing a over the hill, has-been in Brunell.
2nd Slap: Letting the over the hill back-up start 9 horrid games and saying he played like a hero in each one, before he finally starts the young QB.
3rd Slap: Drafting a potentially bad or good rookie, who, at least is mobile.
No way of getting around this.
That is a HUGE slap in the face. BAM – CRACK – SMASH – I was never a big Ramsey fan but I feel for him now. This sucks. They can spin it all they want. SMACK!
What’s up with the Team that I love so much?

USS Redskin..your ship is the only one that is sinking. Don't know how long you've been a fan, but every offseason Skins fans are highfiving and celebrating about "big time" popular moves....newsflash..that is not a winning formula...so quit judging the upcoming season based on the lack of 'popular' decisions in the offseason.

thaiphoon wrote:

thaiphoon - profanity is not aloud per board rules... your post was edited... thanks for understanding...

BTP - my apologies. I didn't mean for them to get out.

I tend to write first and then edit right before posting (good thing the wife is an Editor) since I type too fast and tend to transpose characters at times (like instead of typing since I type too fast and type sicne). I always endeavour to replace any offensive words with one that is non-profane but gets my point across.

Again, my apologies. I will be more vigilant next time.

it's been a tough weekend for some of you... we understand... we'll all have our burgundy & gold colored glasses on in another month or so..

You go to war with the Army you've got....

At some point though, you've got to tap the General on the shoulder and say :

"Sir, when are we gonne get our ammo?"

I complain when I see boneheaded moves. I will applaud good moves. I call it like I see it. The fact is the reason alot of people have been compaining alot for the past 6 years is the magnitude of boneheaded moves that have been made in that timespan.

Lemme work outta this funk I'm in. I'll bitch and moan for a little while longer and eventually I'll be ok I guess (probably right in time for training camp). I still don't agree with 100% of the decisions we've made this offseason but I guess I will have to live with them since I'm a 'Skins fan for life.

thaiphoon wrote:

You go to war with the Army you've got....

At some point though, you've got to tap the General on the shoulder and say :

"Sir, when are we gonne get our ammo?"

I complain when I see boneheaded moves. I will applaud good moves. I call it like I see it. The fact is the reason alot of people have been compaining alot for the past 6 years is the magnitude of boneheaded moves that have been made in that timespan.

Lemme work outta this funk I'm in. I'll bitch and moan for a little while longer and eventually I'll be ok I guess (probably right in time for training camp). I still don't agree with 100% of the decisions we've made this offseason but I guess I will have to live with them since I'm a 'Skins fan for life.

My point is how can you decide the intelligence of these moves when you have not seen any of these guys play yet?

No offense, but it is foolish to judge the draft before the drafted players have played at least a season or so. That is just plain silly.

There will be some busts in this drafts, and there will be some overacheivers and surprises. Heck some Free Agents will outperform some drafted players, and some draftees will be cut.

The point is, WE DON"T KNOW YET..no one does. Sure, complain all you want...but complaining about something you can't have sure knowledge on yet is just plain whining.

thaiphoon wrote:

You go to war with the Army you've got....

At some point though, you've got to tap the General on the shoulder and say :

"Sir, when are we gonne get our ammo?"

Go around saying that to the General before you even get on the boat to head off to prepare to plan for war, and see how far it gets you.

My point is how can you decide the intelligence of these moves when you have not seen any of these guys play yet?

No offense, but it is foolish to judge the draft before the drafted players have played at least a season or so. That is just plain silly.

There will be some busts in this drafts, and there will be some overacheivers and surprises. Heck some Free Agents will outperform some drafted players, and some draftees will be cut.

How about we go through The Danny's previous drafts or Gibbs' last 2 drafts before retiring the first time ? Yes past performance is not indicative of future results, but lemme ask you this:

If you're playing blackjack at a casino and the dealer gets 21, 7 times in a row, are you going to be optimistic of your chances for the 8th ? Especially when you're dealt two 3's?? Didn't think so.

The point is, WE DON"T KNOW YET..no one does. Sure, complain all you want...but complaining about something you can't have sure knowledge on yet is just plain whining.

And pretending the 'skins can do no wrong and every move they make will pan out is just plain silly.

OCSkins wrote:Guys it's freaking Manfreda, the guy must be a closeted cowpuke fan. This guy would rather have Schottenheimer, or Puke Parcells over Gibbs. He's a spoiled brat whining because we didn't take Mike Williams who had been out of football for over a year. "Waaah Waah the 'Skins didn't take Mike Williams I'll make every other fan suffer because I am a bandwagon jumper!" Hey I'm not happy about missing out on david Pollack but you'd better believe I'm going out to get a Chris Samuels Jersey, If I can find a store that has them in Southern California (mostly they sell Coles and Chump jerseys. Arrgh) I am seriously sick of you, Manfreda when we try to agrue with you using reason and backing up our points you resort to name calling. Does anyone know if Manfreda has said anything positive about the 'Skins? I can understand fans who question the moves we made, but I am sick of the bandwagon jumpers like Manfreda.

You guys have done a lot more name calling than I have. I am the only one that has reason. This draft will bite this team in the ass. It sad when you all have no opinion. I am sorry I am not going to be a blind fan, I always take an unbiased view things just because I like a team doesn't mean I agree with the organazations moves.

Go around saying that to the General before you even get on the boat to head off to prepare to plan for war, and see how far it gets you.

Considering my brother made a similar complaint about poor equipment for his guys in his unit (he's their Sergeant) before being shipped out to Afghanistan. And the General subsequently chewed out the asses of the people whose job it was to provide the effective equipment to them ... I'd say pretty good if the General is not a jerk.

hey at least we got a center

First of all, you can't used "censored" curse words either, so you may want to re-read the rules.

Secondly, you may want to re-read my post. The complaining that is going on for the upcoming season is more analogous to complaining to the General about not having enough equipment for the war in Iraq on Sept. 1, 2001. That is to say, there is a lot that needs to happen between now and the start of the season before we will be at a point where we can start legitimately worrying.

That is to say, there is a lot that needs to happen between now and the start of the season before we will be at a point where we can start legitimately worrying.

Well some of us like to get an early start and warm the seats for the latecomers. You'll thank the early-birds later when the seats are warm and the beer is already cold.

thaiphoon wrote:

My point is how can you decide the intelligence of these moves when you have not seen any of these guys play yet?

No offense, but it is foolish to judge the draft before the drafted players have played at least a season or so. That is just plain silly.

There will be some busts in this drafts, and there will be some overacheivers and surprises. Heck some Free Agents will outperform some drafted players, and some draftees will be cut.

How about we go through The Danny's previous drafts or Gibbs' last 2 drafts before retiring the first time ? Yes past performance is not indicative of future results, but lemme ask you this:

If you're playing blackjack at a casino and the dealer gets 21, 7 times in a row, are you going to be optimistic of your chances for the 8th ? Especially when you're dealt two 3's?? Didn't think so.

The point is, WE DON"T KNOW YET..no one does. Sure, complain all you want...but complaining about something you can't have sure knowledge on yet is just plain whining.

And pretending the 'skins can do no wrong and every move they make will pan out is just plain silly.

No one is claiming the Skins do know wrong. Some of us are just prudent enough to realize that we can't judge what is wrong before the consequences are known.

To use your 'blackjack analogy', do you make a habit of judging your hand before you turn over the card.

This is football...you don't know who is the Right pick or Wrong pick before you've seen the players in the system.

Nope but when I see 2 3's dealt to me and the dealer is showing a ten I'm not very hopeful of the outcome. I still might beat the dealer but I wouldn't bet the house on that hand.

thaiphoon wrote:Nope but when I see 2 3's dealt to me and the dealer is showing a ten I'm not very hopeful of the outcome. I still might beat the dealer but I wouldn't bet the house on that hand.

But, thai, the point is that you don't yet know what you were dealt.

But, thai, the point is that you don't yet know what you were dealt.

Actually you do...you just don't know how the hand is goign to play out. You know what 2 3's are (just like you know what the players did in college) you just don't know if you're going to beat the dealer and with what you're dealt and what you need to beat the dealer your odds aren't good.

I believe your analogy is flawed. College performance is not necessarily a good indicator of pro success.

It's like you were handed two threes, but you have no idea if that is good or bad, because you haven't been told the rules of the game you are playing.

I believe your analogy is flawed. College performance is not necessarily a good indicator of pro success.

Actually its not flawed at all...else why do teams rank the players based upon performance ?? If its not a good indicator then we should just have a monkey throwing darts at the picks on a corkboard.

It's like you were handed two threes, but you have no idea if that is good or bad, because you haven't been told the rules of the game you are playing.

Now yours is flawed. We've seen these kids play in comptetion. We know what the rules are. We know what they can do. Just like we know that if the dealer is showing a ten and has a ten under and we have 2 3's then we need 15 to beat the dealer, 14 to push.

thaiphoon wrote:

I believe your analogy is flawed. College performance is not necessarily a good indicator of pro success.

Actually its not flawed at all...else why do teams rank the players based upon performance ?? If its not a good indicator then we should just have a monkey throwing darts at the picks on a corkboard.

It's like you were handed two threes, but you have no idea if that is good or bad, because you haven't been told the rules of the game you are playing.

Now yours is flawed. We've seen these kids play in comptetion. We know what the rules are. We know what they can do. Just like we know that if the dealer is showing a ten and has a ten under and we have 2 3's then we need 15 to beat the dealer, 14 to push.

Your logic overlooks the notion that while playing well in college has an impact on where you are drafted, being drafted high does not mean you will be successful.



Playing well in college is not always an indicator of pro success. Your reasoning is flawed because you base it on the notion that the round in which a player is drafted dictates his future performance.

Terrell Owens....4th Round Pick
Rod Gardner......1st Round Pick

Terrell Davis....6th Round Pick
KiJana Carter....1st Round Pick

Heath Schuler....1st Round Pick
Tom Brady........6th Round Pick

Ryan Leaf........1st Round Pick
Brett Favre......2nd Round Pick

There are so many variables that go into a player's success:
1. The system they are drafted into.
2. Their character.
3. Injuries.
4. Time they are allowed to develop.
5. Whether they have already peaked.
6. Work ethic. Talent alone does not cut it in the NFL.

Dude..try again. There is no way you can tell this message board that you can tell who is going to be a boom or bust less than a week out of the draft.

Among ALL the good points itemised on your post, the following has been underestimated by several of us:

GibbsLombardi wrote:8. We've upgraded special teams with speed and intelligence.

We used to hold our breadth every time our STs entered the field last season. This is not going to happen this season.

thaiphoon wrote:

Umm BANDWAGON/FAIR WEATHER FRIEND?? LOL
ForgUmm BANDWAGON/FAIR WEATHER FRIEND?? LOL
Forgive me for my cosign, but you pointed out what sounds to be the obvious.
ive me for my cosign, but you pointed out what sounds to be the obvious.

It pains me to say this but as much as I disgree with John on just about everything, I don't think refusing to reward Danny for a sub-standard product for the past 6 years by continuing to line his pockets through merchandise sales should be considered a fair weather fan.

Many fans are equally passionate about their Skins and root for them even if they don't like the owner. They watch their team at home on TV but refuse to give anymore money than necessary to reward Snyder's bumbling. Think about it, if a restaurant continues to give you bad service and bad food, are you going to continue to frequent the restaurant ?

Yes I know things have been different since JG is back in town but that doesn't wash Snyder's sins right away for many 'Skins fans.

So I disagree with John Manfreda on pretty much everything. But I disagree with you that refusing to buy memorabilia b/c you don't want to reward the owner for a bad product is a "fair weather" fan. I didn't know that true fans had to blindly follow and keep their wallets open so that Danny could empty them continuously. My apologies.

I mean really, I was being funny .....Co-signing off my manz...BringThePain! I realize purchasing Redskins paraphernalia, doesnt make the fan. Although your opinion is appreciated and respected. But me, I will refuse to sit down and analyze if I am PHAT-NING Dannys pockets(my purchases are not enough to make a diff anyway)....I buy, what I buy to show my LOVE, SUPPORT, and PLAYER APPRECIATION....and most importantly to show the HATERS....no matter how bad it may seem, and no matter how bad it gets....I will ALWAYS REPRESENT!

-REDSKINS TILL I DIE-

Your logic overlooks the notion that while playing well in college has an impact on where you are drafted, being drafted high does not mean you will be successful.

No but having the chance to pick more of the possible 224 players to be picked (non-compensatory) based upon your team ratings is better than having to wait until the second or third round to even start picking. Wouldn't you liek to have the option of taking one of the best 32 players you have rated (assuming everyone else has the same ratings and you get my point) rather than wait until pick 40 or 50 to start your draft ?? I thought so.

Playing well in college is not always an indicator of pro success. Your reasoning is flawed because you base it on the notion that the round in which a player is drafted dictates his future performance.

When have I said this ?? I've already said (using the blackjack analogy) that you don't know how the hand will play out. But you know going into the hand that you have a better chance of beating the dealer with cards that are better in your estimation. This is why teams go for players that they think perform better.

There are so many variables that go into a player's success:
1. The system they are drafted into.
2. Their character.
3. Injuries.
4. Time they are allowed to develop.
5. Whether they have already peaked.
6. Work ethic. Talent alone does not cut it in the NFL.

Sure ... I don't disagree. Which means that all that is factored in AS WELL AS THEIR PERFORMANCE !!! My wife:

2.) is a character
3.) never been injured
4.) has enough time to develop
5.) dunno whethere she's peaked or not - you'll have to ask her
6.) has a great work ethic.

However, she's 5'0 and 105lbs and while she is quite fast she wouldn't make it in the NFL because she wouldn't be able to PERFORM as an NFL player!!! My point is that yes Gibbs takes character guys and I like the intangibles too (especially character). But at some point the guy has to have performed... this is why they rank them and this is why performance matters and why the intangibles will raise or lower your status depending upon the team but if you're a CB and you run a 5.0 40 ... you ain't getting drafted even if you've never been hurt and are basically Mother Teresa in shoulder pads.

Dude..try again. There is no way you can tell this message board that you can tell who is going to be a boom or bust less than a week out of the draft.

Didn't said I could. I said it doesn't bode well when you are dealt a crappy hand and what we've been doing for the past 6 years is exactly that. I never said you can't win off of one, I said the odds don't favor you. I'll be happy to debate what I HAVE said with you. But I will not debate what I have NOT said. Fair enough ??

Fair enough. You are implying contradictory things though.

Earlier you mentioned."We've seen how the kids play in college" in reference to your blackjack analogy. My point was that...seeing the kids play in college is no substitute for WAITING to see them play in the NFL.

At this point that is basically impossible being that it is only 3 days after the draft. This business of mocking the draft...and then grading the draft...is Hogwash...no pun intended.

As a fan of this very team, you should understand that. That is why it sickens me to hear this rhetoric every single year. Some people cried and moaned that we should have gotten Kellen Winslow. etc..etc...

The point is that you cannot make bold assertions that the draft went wrong, or the moves were bad, stupid and will reflect negatively on the season just yet.

The players were the same on Friday before the draft as they are today. The only difference is they have a jersey to hold up. I would just say err on the side of patience when you are judging a 3 day old draft.

You should refer to the thread I created about Gibb's draft. You make the assumption that picking in the First Round is essential to building a champion.

Joe Gibbs has proven that untrue already. Between 1982 and 1990 we only had 1 first round pick...Darrell Green. From 1984 to 90 we had none. They were traded away for players or picks. I seem to recall 2 Superbowl titles somewhere in there.

We've traded a 1st rounder one year, and had 2 this year, and already people are calling for Gibbs' head.

I just say if you have a question or confusion about Gibb's philosophy...do your research for some guidance on the man's method. Whether you like it or not, it actually works.

Thai,
If you are so certain that you are such a genius, and the rest of us are idiots for waiting to see how things play out, why bother lowering yourself into a discussion with us?

We drafted two top-shelf players in the first round. What more do you want? You want the coaching staff to consult your list of priorities before making their choices?

Fair enough. You are implying contradictory things though.

Earlier you mentioned."We've seen how the kids play in college" in reference to your blackjack analogy. My point was that...seeing the kids play in college is no substitute for WAITING to see them play in the NFL.

The analogy is not contradictory. I know that a CB that runs a 5.0 40 and played marginally in college is not a good player to draft. I also know that getting 2 3's is not the best hand in the world to get. I could still get 21 and that CB could still become a Pro Bowler (albeit probably at ST or Safety who knows?) but you still have some inkling of insight into the type of player/hand you're going to get.

The reverse is true. You could be dealt 2 tens but if the dealer gets 21 then you lost. Still doesn't mean that 20 isn't a good hand.

At this point that is basically impossible being that it is only 3 days after the draft. This business of mocking the draft...and then grading the draft...is Hogwash...no pun intended.

As a fan of this very team, you should understand that. That is why it sickens me to hear this rhetoric every single year. Some people cried and moaned that we should have gotten Kellen Winslow. etc..etc...

Actually I wanted Taylor and not Winslow. I was happy.

The point is that you cannot make bold assertions that the draft went wrong, or the moves were bad, stupid and will reflect negatively on the season just yet.
The players were the same on Friday before the draft as they are today. The only difference is they have a jersey to hold up. I would just say err on the side of patience when you are judging a 3 day old draft.

I understand you point and the logic behind it. I just feel that I'm right about the lack of wisdom we used to trade as many picks as we did for Campbell.

You should refer to the thread I created about Gibb's draft. You make the assumption that picking in the First Round is essential to building a champion.
Joe Gibbs has proven that untrue already. Between 1982 and 1990 we only had 1 first round pick...Darrell Green. From 1984 to 90 we had none. They were traded away for players or picks. I seem to recall 2 Superbowl titles somewhere in there.

You also missed my response to that thread too ... Gibbs also had a GM who had a knack for getting late round and undrafted gems. We don't have such a person and haven't for a VERY long time.
BTW- under the old rules (pre-freeagency) we also used to stash developmental players on IR (Stan Humphries ring a bell?). Remember Jerry Glanville was pissed about it and went off on Gibbs right before we played his Falcons.

We've traded a 1st rounder one year, and had 2 this year, and already people are calling for Gibbs' head.

I don't want his head. I think he's a great coach and a decent talent evaluator. What he needs as a competent GM and good scouts who can find late round talent. We haven't seemed to have that in longer than I can remember.

I just say if you have a question or confusion about Gibb's philosophy...do your research for some guidance on the man's method. Whether you like it or not, it actually works.

It HAS worked in the past and that is why he will always be my coach. My concern (and I'm extremely hopeful that he will succeed) is that it won't now. Hopefully for our team's sake you are correct and I'm wrong. And I will never be more happy being wrong than at that moment and will gladly admit I was.