The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

You are a Jewel, thats if you see obvious mistakes and acknowledge them.

I love when longtime fans say we suck when we do, cause I know where they stand.

If you guys are putting up a front to deal with some of our defencies........

Then my bad.

redskincity wrote:You are a Jewel, thats if you see obvious mistakes and acknowledge them.

I love when longtime fans say we suck when we do, cause I know where they stand.

If you guys are putting up a front to deal with some of our defencies........

Then my bad.

I have no clue what you're talking about with the Captain Crunch Secret Decoder Posting... but if you're jealous of my "jewel" label... you can have it... it didn't fit the whole image I'm trying to maintain anyways....

redskincity wrote:He is human and makes mistakes and he admits it.

I have a problem with fans who see obvious mistakes and then turn the cheek because its "Joe Gibbs."(Brunell)

He has acknowledged making mistakes. He has taken full responsibility.

Hindsight is phenomenal. If an unexpected play works, he is a genius. If it does not, he is "idiotic" and the result "inexcusable". We can discuss whether it is the call or the execution that did not work until hell freezes over.

Did he make mistakes before? Yes.
Did he make mistakes this season? Yes.
Will he make mistakes next season? Yes
Will he make mistakes in the seasons to come after that? Yes.

He is human. He is an extraordinary individual that will not blame -anybody- else but himself for -any- and -all- mistakes and losses, even if they are not his fault 100%.

The bottom line is: Are we better off now than we were last year or the years before? To me the answer is unquestionably a resounding YES!

I see pride in our team.
I see character in our team.
I see a TEAM, a winning TEAM in the making.

I know that in today's world of instant gratification an investment of a season or two is an anathema. But there is no other way. No pain, no gain. Are you with me?

BringThePain! wrote:

Redskin in Canada wrote:There are some true jewels in this site if we look carefully.

Awww... he called me a jewel..

Yep! But I also did it in plural. There are others.

BringThePain! wrote:

redskincity wrote:You are a Jewel, thats if you see obvious mistakes and acknowledge them.

I love when longtime fans say we suck when we do, cause I know where they stand.

If you guys are putting up a front to deal with some of our defencies........

Then my bad.

I have no clue what you're talking about with the Captain Crunch Secret Decoder Posting... but if you're jealous of my "jewel" label... you can have it... it didn't fit the whole image I'm trying to maintain anyways....

I perfer Pebbles and you can keep your 'Jewels, But you can borrow mine.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

redskincity wrote:He is human and makes mistakes and he admits it.

I have a problem with fans who see obvious mistakes and then turn the cheek because its "Joe Gibbs."(Brunell)

He has acknowledged making mistakes. He has taken full responsibility.

Hindsight is phenomenal. If an unexpected play works, he is a genius. If it does not, he is "idiotic" and the result "inexcusable". We can discuss whether it is the call or the execution that did not work until hell freezes over.

Did he make mistakes before? Yes.
Did he make mistakes this season? Yes.
Will he make mistakes next season? Yes
Will he make mistakes in the seasons to come after that? Yes.

He is human. He is an extraordinary individual that will not blame -anybody- else but himself for -any- and -all- mistakes and losses, even if they are not his fault 100%.

The bottom line is: Are we better off now than we were last year or the years before? To me the answer is unquestionably a resounding YES!

I see pride in our team.
I see character in our team.
I see a TEAM, a winning TEAM in the making.

I know that in today's world of instant gratification an investment of a season or two is an anathema. But there is no other way. No pain, no gain. Are you with me?

Does JPFair have two usernames???

We pretty much come here to discuss things that are hindsight.

We also know that this offense has been sucking for a while and we also know why.

Is it the coaching Yes

Its it the players Yes

Is it the Refs Yes

Its it other teams Yes

But that doesnt hide the fact that if we suck, its starts at the top.

But that doesnt hide the fact that if we suck, its starts at the top

Truer words have never been said. But, to think that a franchise that has been virtually destroyed by mismanagement for many years could be miraculously repaired almost overnight by virute of a persons reputation, is wrong. It must first be taken apart and put back together the way "the top" wants it. Such a monumental task can not be accomplished in one season.

JPFair wrote:

But that doesnt hide the fact that if we suck, its starts at the top

Truer words have never been said. But, to think that a franchise that has been virtually destroyed by mismanagement for many years could be miraculously repaired almost overnight by virute of a persons reputation, is wrong. It must first be taken apart and put back together the way "the top" wants it. Such a monumental task can not be accomplished in one season.

He is tearing this Franchise apart so we will be proud.

I am just as frustrated as all hell , because I had the **** to watch the game again this morning

Maybe we play spoiler.

DCD wrote:

i took a good deal of space to articulate very specific and rational criticisms of the way the game was managed.

1. No defense should get beaten long.

It happens. Not often to this defense, but it happens. I saw Longley throw the pass, and, judging from the year, the Redskins probably had Pat Fisher and Mike Bass at CB, Brig Owens at FS, and Ken Houston at SS. Maybe the all-around best Redskins defensive backfield, but they missed on that play.

I also saw Vince Evans beat the Redskins on a long throw in the last game of the '92 season. Darrell Green was covering, but he missed.

Those things happen.

2. Should not have run three times when the Skins got the ball just after the 2 minute warning.

It made sense to me. Each running play took a Cowboy timeout, leaving them none when the Redskins punted. Yes, I thought, maybe try a play-action pass on second down, but you run the risk of an incompletion, which stops the clock. Or an interception.

It made sense to use their timeouts, punt from a decent spot, and trust the Redskin defense.

3. Antonio Brown should not have tried to break the punt return. Agreed. I wanted him to put his knee down, fair catch, do anything other than fumble. But he fumbled...over and done, and not a coaching decision. Maybe a decision to sign Brown, but that also depends on whether McCants can block and tackle and play on special teams. If not, then Gibbs needs a player. He expected brown to do the job.

redskincity wrote:...
We also know that this offense has been sucking for a while and we also know why.

Is it the coaching Yes

Its it the players Yes

Is it the Refs Yes

Its it other teams Yes

But that doesnt hide the fact that if we suck, its starts at the top.

Victory has many fathers and defeat is an orphan. You can blame -everybody- even your fellow fans for what that is worth.

Just PLEASE do not come back to the board when our team -succeeds- with the lines that, in hindsight:

1. I KNEW it all along.
2. I ALWAYS trusted Joe Gibbs.
3. I ALWAYS had confidence in our players.

There is a name for fans like those. They go wherever the wind is blowing at the moment.

Yes, I thought, maybe try a play-action pass on second down, but you run the risk of an incompletion, which stops the clock. Or an interception.

My biggest problem with the coaching this year has been with the way that Gibbs and Co. are coaching not to lose instead of coaching to win. Those three runs are a prime example. We hadn't been able to establish the run all game long so what made the coaches think that we could do it late in the fourth qaurter when the Cowboys were expecting a run. You have to make the defense guess and not just allow them to focus solely against the run. Look at how it worked for the Cowboys on those slant patterns when we were expecting them to run the ball. If we were going to run we should've at least tried a run outside or something like that instead of running up the middle into a defense that was expecting us to do just that.

My biggest problem with the coaching this year has been with the way that Gibbs and Co. are coaching not to lose instead of coaching to win.

Gibbs was coaching to win. He wanted safe running plays with a chance to make the first down, but, most of all, he was taking their timeouts, and putting the Cowboys in a position where they would have to score a TD on the Redskins defense. Playing on the Redskins' strength.

The earlier throws on third-and-short suggest that (a) Gibbs had seen the OL fail to pound out the short yard or two and (b) Ramsey still has trouble with the touch pass. I remember a play in the first half, just after the fumble recovery, when Ramsey drilled a pass high through a receiver's hands, thrown too hard when the receiver was just past the line of scrimmage. Ramsey is still learning.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

redskincity wrote:...
We also know that this offense has been sucking for a while and we also know why.

Is it the coaching Yes

Its it the players Yes

Is it the Refs Yes

Its it other teams Yes

But that doesnt hide the fact that if we suck, its starts at the top.

Victory has many fathers and defeat is an orphan. You can blame -everybody- even your fellow fans for what that is worth.

Just PLEASE do not come back to the board when our team -succeeds- with the lines that, in hindsight:

1. I KNEW it all along.
2. I ALWAYS trusted Joe Gibbs.
3. I ALWAYS had confidence in our players.

There is a name for fans like those. They go wherever the wind is blowing at the moment.

Why is it when we critize Joe Gibbs for whats happening right now we are crucified? Why cant we express concern for the crap you and I witnessed the other day?

Did you know that we are the only team that did not take advantage of the chuck rule?? Stuff like this has to be worked out and I suppose we'll tend that next year but man lets us talk about.

Why is it when we critize Joe Gibbs for whats happening right now we are crucified?

Because you fail to realize that it takes time to build what Joe Gibbs is trying to build. You have to realize that to get where we want to be, it doesn't happen overnight. You have to see the progress that's being made, instead of focusing solely on whether we win the instant football game.

If Joe Gibbs is at fault for this team being in a state of disarray, then criticism should go his way. But, when players say things like "I really think we're on the verge of something special here" (Samuels) and "I know it sounds hard to beleive, but I really beleive this is going to work" (Ramsey) we have to have as much faith in the Coaches as the players have, because from listening to the players, they have a lot of faith in Joe Gibbs. Can that be said about any other Redskins coach since 1992?

redskincity wrote:Why is it when we critize Joe Gibbs for whats happening right now we are crucified? Why cant we express concern for the crap you and I witnessed the other day?

The "crap" you saw the other day is miles ahead of the "crap" you have witnessed over the last decade. That's why.

I understand that -only- victories will bring you on board. You will get your victories. I only say that you may be wasting a great opportunity to witness progress in the making and the lessons to be taught arriving there.

Did you know that we are the only team that did not take advantage of the chuck rule?? Stuff like this has to be worked out and I suppose we'll tend that next year but man lets us talk about.

We can talk about this point all you want. But this rule does not a team make.

You fail to see the progress made by laying a good TEAM foundation. But I do not get the impression that some fans appreciate the importance and magnitude of the work done to date. Many fans enjoy the taste of victory, not the difficult taste of the struggle to get you there.

I will not try to convinece you any further. If what some of us say is true, you will arrive at the same conclusuion by YOURSELF.

The alternative is that if what you say is true, the Skins have no hope and we might as well switch coaches, players and staff all over again and again until we win the lottery. There is no lottery! There is only hard work and sacrifice. That's it.

JPFair wrote:I can assure you, you have it all wrong. The complaint you have should be with the execution of the plays, not with the coaches. In referance to your comments above, Joe Gibbs' confidence in his players is such that running the ball three times in a row, the odds are high that a first down will be had.

JP, the fact that gibbs tried to pass on several 3rd and shorts suggests that he does NOT have confidence in the players to pick up 3.3 yards. even if he DID have that confidence, that would be a further indictment of his coaching. it isn't your job to call the game based upon some idealistic principles of how football should be played with some ideal team- you have to call the plays that YOUR ACTUAL TEAM can win with.

JPFair wrote:You're a typical example of the modern day NFL fan. You want to see long passing plays, huge gains, and points on the board. If we did not run the ball three consecutive times, what would we do? Throw the ball, thereby increasing the possibility of an interception? How bout throwing an incompletion, allowing the clock to stop without anyone burning a time-out?

i don't deny that i enjoy watching lots of offense. who doesn't? but what i want more than that is to WIN. i didn't say i wanted the skins to pass down the field in that situation- i wanted them to actually try to get a first down! which means probably trying a SHORT pass (off play-action)-- especially since the defense was sure we would just run into the pile.

JPFair wrote:If the Defense have been doing it all year long, why NOT ask them to do it again? It shows that Joe and Greg have faith in their players, which is more than I can say about you. In this case, it didn't work out! Things like this happen in football.

the reason to not ask them to do it again is because 2 of the CBs got injured and wouldn't be able to play. it makes no sense to put a decimated secondary out there to stop what will surely be a bunch of long pass attempts.

JPFair wrote:By getting this angry, you're re-assuring me just how wrong you are. Take a Valium and relax. Don't blame your anger management issues on one of the greatest coaches to ever set foot on a football field.

what on earth does anger have to do with being correct or incorrect?? it was inexcusable to do anything except fair-catch that punt, and that criticism HAS to go all the way to the head coach. i'm sorry welch, it makes no sense to say that gibbs should just let antonio brown do whatever he wants with the ball, trusting him to do the right thing. gibbs is the coach, it is his job to TELL him what the right thing is!

JP, the fact that gibbs tried to pass on several 3rd and shorts suggests that he does NOT have confidence in the players to pick up 3.3 yards. even if he DID have that confidence, that would be a further indictment of his coaching. it isn't your job to call the game based upon some idealistic principles of how football should be played with some ideal team- you have to call the plays that YOUR ACTUAL TEAM can win with.

That's your opinion, but I think you're wrong. I'm of the opinion that the flow of the game dictates whether you throw on 3rd and short or not. In the last series, the "flow" of the game called for the running game, in my opinion. I think he did the right thing.

i don't deny that i enjoy watching lots of offense. who doesn't?

Offense comes in many forms, not just downfield passes. Offense is also running the ball up the middle. That being said, there is more to a football game than what a fan wants to see. There's defense, strategy, coaches system, etc... If a fan wants to see "lots of offense" in the form of downfield passes, etc... they're not going to get it just yet. It takes time for Joe Gibbs to be able to implement that type of offensive system. You have to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run, etc...

i didn't say i wanted the skins to pass down the field in that situation- i wanted them to actually try to get a first down!

Well, then what ARE you trying to say? Are you suggesting that they weren't trying for a first down? Were they deliberately trying to give the ball back to Dallas with time on the clock? That's a very strong allegation to make, if in fact that's what you're saying.

which means probably trying a SHORT pass (off play-action)-- especially since the defense was sure we would just run into the pile

Again, the risk of an incompletion is there which stops the clock without burning a timeout. Sometimes you have to play the averages. As for running into the pile with the defense knowing it was coming.. Did you ever hear the story about how the Redskins ran Riggins up the gut NINE straight times, and each time they did the offensive line (I think it was Bostic, though I'm not sure) told the defense what they were doing? It doesn't matter whether the defense knows it's coming or not. If the play works, it works with or without the defense knowing it. In this situation, I agree with Gibbs' call to run it up the middle and try and get a first down that way. At least that way, the worst case scenario is that we rely on a No. 2 ranked defense to hold them. Using your short pass philosophy, what would the worst case scenario be? Give it to Dallas with one timeout left, and still rely on the defense? As Joe Gibbs said, he consulted with Greg Williams and they felt it was the right thing to do. ENOUGH FOR ME!!! I have no doubt that the coaches consider the "worst case scenario" and I'm sure they considered a short pass, and what the situation would be if they threw an incompletion. So, it boiled down to two scenarios:

1- Run the ball up the middle and possibly get a first down, but if not, rely on the defense to hold Dallas. In this case, Dallas have no timeouts left.

2- Try a short pass, possibly off of play-action, and run the risk of an incompletion. In the event of an incompletion, then what? Give it back to Dallas WITH a timeout left. And, of course, rely on the defense.

In either of these situations, the coaches have to assume more than just what might happen if the play is succecsfull. They have to plan on what to do if the play does not work.

the reason to not ask them to do it again is because 2 of the CBs got injured and wouldn't be able to play. it makes no sense to put a decimated secondary out there to stop what will surely be a bunch of long pass attempts.

Again, Joe Gibbs consulted with Greg Williams and they felt they could do it. What a brilliant show of confidence in not just the starters, but also the players who make up the "depth" of this team. If I was a second string player in that situation, I'd take a pay cut to play for these type of coaches. Our second and third stringers have been doing a great job all year long. What about Taylor? Where was he? 9 times out of 10, Taylor levels that guy and the guy drops the ball. It didn't happen this time. Time to move on!

what on earth does anger have to do with being correct or incorrect??

In theory, nothing. But, in your case, it has everything to do with it. Because, whether you know it or not, every time the Redskins lose a game, you run to this board and rant and rave about "inexcusable" and "amateurish" coaching that our coaching staff makes. I don't doubt your passion and need to "rant", but as I said, do it in a professional, tactful, and more importantly, accurate manner. These coaches are NOT amateurish, nor do they do anything "inexcusable". Your accuasations of amateurish and inexcusable decisions are borne more out of anger than fact. IMO, you should see this team for what it is, not what you want it to be RIGHT NOW!!! Myself, I prefer to watch the progression that's taking place rather than be satisfied with instant and temporary gratification. You should too!

Redskin in Canada wrote:

redskincity wrote:Why is it when we critize Joe Gibbs for whats happening right now we are crucified? Why cant we express concern for the crap you and I witnessed the other day?

The "crap" you saw the other day is miles ahead of the "crap" you have witnessed over the last decade. That's why.

I understand that -only- victories will bring you on board. You will get your victories. I only say that you may be wasting a great opportunity to witness progress in the making and the lessons to be taught arriving there.

Did you know that we are the only team that did not take advantage of the chuck rule?? Stuff like this has to be worked out and I suppose we'll tend that next year but man lets us talk about.

We can talk about this point all you want. But this rule does not a team make.

You fail to see the progress made by laying a good TEAM foundation. But I do not get the impression that some fans appreciate the importance and magnitude of the work done to date. Many fans enjoy the taste of victory, not the difficult taste of the struggle to get you there.

I will not try to convinece you any further. If what some of us say is true, you will arrive at the same conclusuion by YOURSELF.

The alternative is that if what you say is true, the Skins have no hope and we might as well switch coaches, players and staff all over again and again until we win the lottery. There is no lottery! There is only hard work and sacrifice. That's it.

I dont need you to convince me of anything, I am a grown enough to know and see what is going on right now.

You like and pretend what you want to see and I will continue to criticize the facts and the facts are that we suck and I as a dedicated fan realize that along with the rest of the Redskin community.

I am a local Redskin fan and have been a skin fan since swimming in my Daddys scrotum. I buy cars from ex-Redskin players and the whole nine yards and my dedication is constantly tested.

You and I can only hope that this team is turned around. I dont have a crystal ball and neither do you. We can only wish that we are better than what I witnessed this year.



Its about as dumb as a weather man reporting sunny skies, when we are stuck in a snow storm.

Facts are facts and opinions are opinions and I am speaking from a nonfictional point.

Maybe in the future I will not say "we suck," maybe I will say what the players and the coach is saying week after week in local interviews and that is "We're just not getting it done."

...I also believe the minute you stop pretending nothing is wrong, is the minute this debate is over.

JPFair wrote:

Why is it when we critize Joe Gibbs for whats happening right now we are crucified?

Because you fail to realize that it takes time to build what Joe Gibbs is trying to build. You have to realize that to get where we want to be, it doesn't happen overnight. You have to see the progress that's being made, instead of focusing solely on whether we win the instant football game.

If Joe Gibbs is at fault for this team being in a state of disarray, then criticism should go his way. But, when players say things like "I really think we're on the verge of something special here" (Samuels) and "I know it sounds hard to beleive, but I really beleive this is going to work" (Ramsey) we have to have as much faith in the Coaches as the players have, because from listening to the players, they have a lot of faith in Joe Gibbs. Can that be said about any other Redskins coach since 1992?

It takes time to build a team and it also take time to build years and years of frustration. The frustration is we are not happy little home right now.

My comments have nothing to with where we are headed but where we are. 'Realize that and stop acting like you are the only one that knows what is going on.

Redskincity,

If you're going to talk about your Daddys nutz, take it to smack. This is the hogwash forum!

JPFair wrote:Redskincity,

If you're going to talk about your Daddys nutz, take it to smack. This is the hogwash forum!

Yeah its a figure of speech. Get with it!!

If you really dont like it PM a Mod

The frustration is we are not happy little home right now.

What the heck is that? When you say "we", who are you referring to? If you mean that "we" as fans are not "happy" right now, then you have no right to speak for us fans. I am quite happy with where we are right now. I'm not a fair weather fan, and I choose to see the big picture.

My comments have nothing to with where we are headed but where we are.

Yes, you've made that obvious.

'Realize that and stop acting like you are the only one that knows what is going on.

Tell ya what! I'll stop acting like that as soon as you DO realize what's going on.

If you really dont like it PM a Mod

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I should have to rely on PM'ing a mod to sensor your daddys nutz. It's up to you to realize that your daddys nutz belong in smack.

I thought they belonged in his pants... but whatever...

JPFair wrote:

The frustration is we are not happy little home right now.

What the heck is that? When you say "we", who are you referring to? If you mean that "we" as fans are not "happy" right now, then you have no right to speak for us fans. I am quite happy with where we are right now. I'm not a fair weather fan, and I choose to see the big picture.

My comments have nothing to with where we are headed but where we are.

Yes, you've made that obvious.

'Realize that and stop acting like you are the only one that knows what is going on.

Tell ya what! I'll stop acting like that as soon as you DO realize what's going on.

I am not speaking for you. I have not seen a so called fan like you ever.

I am speaking of fans who realize whats going on, not fans who drives to every game like a maniac, then comes to board and attempt to justify even the BS spectacle we see week after week.

Get a life. Try www.ebay.com