The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

SkinsJock wrote:Dak Prescott - really! - you want to go there? .... OK, name a college QB that we could draft to start here in 2017

hah. Man, I don't follow college football closely enough to know.

I think Prescott has really screwed perceptions up btw. He's been pretty damn good this season I hate to admit, and now all of these "experts" are looking at that saying, "Hey look you CAN get a starting rookie QB in the fourth round". But the guy is playing behind a ridiculously good offensive line with an absolute beast at running back. I highly doubt that Dak Prescott is blowing anybody away this year if he'd been drafted by the Browns.

I doubt Kirk goes to cleveland... but how dumb doespecially our organization look if kirk goes to another team and does very well.

He could win a super bowl in a place like Denver, multiple of them. If Brady or Brees decided to hang it up this year he could do it on either of those teams too. He could make the Jets or Bears contenders, or replace a dud like osweiler on the Texans. So we will either pay the man top qb money.... or we will let someone else do it, likely be talked about for years for letting him go, and draft a qb that has only a sliver of a chance of succeeding.

Kirk Cousins is not a Super Bowl QB unless he's able to go to a really good team that needs a QB and I can't think of one

I do understand that there's going to be competition for Cousins - they're going to have to pay him what the market value is - Cousins will not get a low ball offer from the Redskins unless he has a huge drop off in the next 8 games

SkinsJock wrote:Kirk Cousins is not a Super Bowl QB unless he's able to go to a really good team that needs a QB and I can't think of one

I do understand that there's going to be competition for Cousins - they're going to have to pay him what the market value is - Cousins will not get a low ball offer from the Redskins unless he has a huge drop off in the next 8 games

He's not a QB that can carry a team on his shoulders and win it on his own... which does not mean he can't help this team get to and win a super bowl... those are 2 different things.

There are 4 levels of QB
Elite (maybe 5 current qbs in this list)
Good ( maybe 6-7 in this list)
Managable (maybe another 6-7 at most)
Garbage (the remaining 14ish qbs)

If you have a qb that falls in one of those first 2 categories, you keep him. Kirk falls into the 2nd category, maybe right now he is on the lower end of it, but he is in there.

Deadskins wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:Who you think is going to give Cousins a deal?

If not us, any of about a dozen teams.

I don't know I see about 4 teams max and a good chance 3 out of 4 of those teams go with the draft. Everybody else either have existing situations or Kirk wouldn't be a major upgrade to invest in.

Jets - VERY POSSIBLE - have had past interest...however if their GM is out you better believe they are most likely going draft.

Jaguars - POSSIBLE - depends if their coach stays. If Kyle go there then of course Kirk would be a target. If things remain I think they will give Bortles every opportunity.

Bears - POSSIBLE - But not likely, Bears haven't drafted a quarterback in the 1st round since

49ers - POSSIBLE - I see them going draft with a high pick but they could go for Kirk.

But anyway thats too far down the road. Hopefully Cousins takes us to the playoffs and beyond and we can pay him what he deserve!

we really need to keep Cousins and I think he's going to both finish off the season well and be able to demand a lot of money
THEN
he's going to get a really good offer from the Redskins but he's going to be able to say "I'm worth more than that ... "

the Redskins will have to decide to:
pay him more than he's worth - based on what he has done and will be able to do
OR
pay him a lot more than he's worth - based on the QB market in 2017

my point is the Redskins will not make him a low ball offer but I wonder if they will go high enough to keep him

Cousins contract can be good for both the franchise and the player but it should not be a lot more than he's worth

SkinsJock wrote:Cousins contract can be good for both the franchise and the player but it should not be a lot more than he's worth

We really need to quit with the "more than he's worth" stuff. I was listening to people on the radio this AM say that. "I like him, but I wouldn't pay him $20m". That contract number is just whatever some team will pay him based on his performance against his peers.

Its not a question of what he's worth. Its a question of what can we afford to pay a starting caliber QB without hurting ourselves at other positions. I don't think many of us view Cousins as a carry the team on his back type of QB. Seems like it would be stupid to pay him a contract where we can't afford to re-sign guys like DJax or Chris Baker if we want.

riggofan wrote: Seems like it would be stupid to pay him a contract where we can't afford to re-sign guys like DJax or Chris Baker if we want.

You have to look at outcomes though.....

So are you saying that you'd rather have McCoy with DJax and Baker vs. Cousins alone? I'd MUCH rather have the later. DJax is a good player, Baker is mediocre at best. The QB position, is undoubtedly the most important position on the field. You take out Cousins, insert McCoy --- and we are scoring at least 7 less points per game. At least. Also --- my guess is that we'll sign DJax regardless. Garcon is the one that may be a cap casualty.

Cousins is BY FAR the best option at QB next year (when looking at roster, FA, and draft). We know what McCoy can do ---- and it is basically the same output as Cousins in 2014. And Cousins is now 10X better than he was in 2014 (at least in terms of production). Cousins is a top 8-12 QB in the NFL. With no other options, you don't let that walk. If we had some "up and comer" at #2 that was impressing everyone, then sure, but we have a journeyman QB that has had multiple opportunities to prove himself and hasn't done so (his best QBR rating was 46....).

So in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. As a GM, you sit down and manipulate the numbers to make it work. Put together a $20M signing bonus, guarantee the first 2 years and backfill years 4 & 5. Get the contract to 5 years, 95M (42.5M guaranteed -- 20M sign, 10M Y1, 12.5M Y2). With the salary cap going up every year we can easily work with that.

But based on our cap situation, we can sign Cousins AND bring back the players we want to.

markshark84 wrote:

riggofan wrote: Seems like it would be stupid to pay him a contract where we can't afford to re-sign guys like DJax or Chris Baker if we want.

... in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. As a GM, you sit down and manipulate the numbers to make it work. Put together a $20M signing bonus, guarantee the first 2 years and backfill years 4 & 5. Get the contract to 5 years, 95M (42.5M guaranteed -- 20M sign, 10M Y1, 12.5M Y2). With the salary cap going up every year we can easily work with that - based on our cap situation, we can sign Cousins AND bring back the players we want to.

you're missing the point - what if the amount is enough that we cannot sign all the players we want

it very much looks like the FO is going to have to pay Kirk Cousins more than he's worth ... which is OK
but
if that amount is high enough that it prevents us from paying all the other players we want, it's a very interesting decision

markshark84 wrote:You have to look at outcomes though.....

So are you saying that you'd rather have McCoy with DJax and Baker vs. Cousins alone? I'd MUCH rather have the later. DJax is a good player, Baker is mediocre at best. The QB position, is undoubtedly the most important position on the field. You take out Cousins, insert McCoy --- and we are scoring at least 7 less points per game. At least. Also --- my guess is that we'll sign DJax regardless. Garcon is the one that may be a cap casualty.

Yeah just throwing those names out there to make the point about the $$/cap. I'm tired of hearing people say we can't pay Cousins "more than he's worth". Like there is some pay scale out there dictating how much a quarterback should or shouldn't make. As long as Cousins' deal doesn't badly affect our ability to re-sign the guys we need, I could care less what his paycheck is.

I agree with your comment that "in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. "

SkinsJock wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

riggofan wrote: Seems like it would be stupid to pay him a contract where we can't afford to re-sign guys like DJax or Chris Baker if we want.

... in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. As a GM, you sit down and manipulate the numbers to make it work. Put together a $20M signing bonus, guarantee the first 2 years and backfill years 4 & 5. Get the contract to 5 years, 95M (42.5M guaranteed -- 20M sign, 10M Y1, 12.5M Y2). With the salary cap going up every year we can easily work with that - based on our cap situation, we can sign Cousins AND bring back the players we want to.

you're missing the point - what if the amount is enough that we cannot sign all the players we want

it very much looks like the FO is going to have to pay Kirk Cousins more than he's worth ... which is OK
but
if that amount is high enough that it prevents us from paying all the other players we want, it's a very interesting decision

It was roughly a few weeks ago where you were declaring that Cousins has not proven he's a "good starting QB", now it's ok to pay him more than he's worth?

riggofan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:You have to look at outcomes though.....

So are you saying that you'd rather have McCoy with DJax and Baker vs. Cousins alone? I'd MUCH rather have the later. DJax is a good player, Baker is mediocre at best. The QB position, is undoubtedly the most important position on the field. You take out Cousins, insert McCoy --- and we are scoring at least 7 less points per game. At least. Also --- my guess is that we'll sign DJax regardless. Garcon is the one that may be a cap casualty.

Yeah just throwing those names out there to make the point about the $$/cap. I'm tired of hearing people say we can't pay Cousins "more than he's worth". Like there is some pay scale out there dictating how much a quarterback should or shouldn't make. As long as Cousins' deal doesn't badly affect our ability to re-sign the guys we need, I could care less what his paycheck is.

I agree with your comment that "in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. "

Whats Cousins current passer rating ranking? Never hear anyone mention it.

mastdark81 wrote:Whats Cousins current passer rating ranking? Never hear anyone mention it.

He's ranked 14th in espn QBR and looks like 14th in NFL passer rating (among QBs who have thrown more than 100 passes) right now.

I'm assuming you had some point to make, but maybe you haven't looked at those stats since this weekend's games or something.

riggofan wrote:

mastdark81 wrote:Whats Cousins current passer rating ranking? Never hear anyone mention it.

He's ranked 14th in espn QBR and looks like 14th in NFL passer rating (among QBs who have thrown more than 100 passes) right now.

I'm assuming you had some point to make, but maybe you haven't looked at those stats since this weekend's games or something.

Naw I didn't have a point to make was just curious. He's a little better than half the quarterbacks. A tad bit over middle of the pack according to the rating. I think if he get in top 10 and we will be in playoffs!

I think he's played around a C+ through 8 games. Which is fine. Would like to see him take 5 more chances per game for big plays. When I say big plays doesn't mean the 40+ yard pass just take more game changing type plays and throws into the endzone. I think everything he does would be fine but we are not scoring enough touchdowns given the yards we are racking up so something is not right. Offensively would like Gruden & Co. to drill in his head "dictate" and hopefully we see more Tampa games from him when needed.

mastdark81 wrote:Naw I didn't have a point to make was just curious. He's a little better than half the quarterbacks. A tad bit over middle of the pack according to the rating. I think if he get in top 10 and we will be in playoffs!

I think you're right about that actually. If he'd just score on his next five or six trips to the red zone, it would probably put his QBR back up where it was last year.

mastdark81 wrote:I think he's played around a C+ through 8 games. Which is fine. Would like to see him take 5 more chances per game for big plays. When I say big plays doesn't mean the 40+ yard pass just take more game changing type plays and throws into the endzone. I think everything he does would be fine but we are not scoring enough touchdowns given the yards we are racking up so something is not right. Offensively would like Gruden & Co. to drill in his head "dictate" and hopefully we see more Tampa games from him when needed.

yeah I agree with you on that grade. He should be a B, but it seems fair to knock him for the red zone. Just the way it is.

I heard one of the radio guys, maybe Al Galdi, make a decent point this morning. He was talking about how there was this time recently when everyone was knocking the Redskins for their third quarter performance. Like the team was just getting blown out every third quarter and everyone was up in arms about it, what is the coaching staff doing, what's wrong with them, etc; Then that just stopped.

The red zone issue might be like that. Its been an annoying failure for the first half of the season. There's no reason the team can't change that.

StorminMormon86 wrote: It was roughly a few weeks ago where you were declaring that Cousins has not proven he's a "good starting QB", now it's ok to pay him more than he's worth?

why is that so many posters here like to twist stuff around?

Kirk Cousins is a good NFL QB - his market value is going to be very high because of the position he plays

any team that signs him is going to have to pay him more than he's worth because of who else is available at QB

do we pay him enough to make sure he stays EVEN if that amount restricts the team's ability to add other good players we need

riggofan wrote: As long as Cousins' deal doesn't badly affect our ability to re-sign the guys we need, I could care less what his paycheck is. I agree that "in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. "

I hope they pay Cousins whatever it takes to stay here

totally agree that $ do not matter EXCEPT if that $ amount hurts our ability to add anyone and everyone we need

I hope Cousins gets the highest $ contract for a QB ever - as long as we can afford to do whatever we want while he's here

SkinsJock wrote:Kirk Cousins is a good NFL QB - his market value is going to be very high because of the position he plays

any team that signs him is going to have to pay him more than he's worth because of who else is available at QB

He's worth what his market value is. You can't have it both ways.

don't pay any attention to the nitpickers ... the question remains the same ...

do we pay Kirk Cousins enough to keep him even if that means we don't have enough to pay the other good players we need?

SkinsJock wrote:don't pay any attention to the nitpickers ... the question remains the same ...

do we pay Kirk Cousins enough to keep him even if that means we don't have enough to pay the other good players we need?

If it's nitpicking to ask you to pick one side of the fence and stay on it, then I'm guilty.

But your other question has been answered many times already, and that answer was no. The team will offer him what they think they can afford, and then, if they can't work out a deal, they let him walk. That's why we went with the non-exclusive rights franchise tag, instead of the exclusive rights one. If another team was willing to give us draft picks, then sayonara Kirk.

SkinsJock wrote:don't pay any attention to the nitpickers ... the question remains the same ...

do we pay Kirk Cousins enough to keep him even if that means we don't have enough to pay the other good players we need?

The question really is do you risk letting him go knowing that I'm all probability it means we go through atleast 5 more qbs over the next 5-6 years until we get to someone else worth even asking this question about?

The answer is no, we dont. This is an offensively built team from coaches down, to get rid of the most important person on the field that is executing his job well would be team suicide. We aren't the Denver Broncos who can win without a good QB. Letting Kirk go almost sets in stone that we will not be a threat in the playoffs for many years.

The salary cap is going to go up atleast 10 million per year, the impact of paying him north of 20 million, on a team that is building through the draft, that 3-4 years from now will have 40million extra in money to spend, is not going to devoid this team of talent or opportunity.

If we have to overpay a little, then so be it.

I'm so used to watching us throw the bank at free agents, it'd be a relief to overpay a little to keep homegrown talent.

SkinsJock wrote:

markshark84 wrote:

riggofan wrote: Seems like it would be stupid to pay him a contract where we can't afford to re-sign guys like DJax or Chris Baker if we want.

... in our situation, it would be REALLY STUPID to let a top 10 QB walk. As a GM, you sit down and manipulate the numbers to make it work. Put together a $20M signing bonus, guarantee the first 2 years and backfill years 4 & 5. Get the contract to 5 years, 95M (42.5M guaranteed -- 20M sign, 10M Y1, 12.5M Y2). With the salary cap going up every year we can easily work with that - based on our cap situation, we can sign Cousins AND bring back the players we want to.

you're missing the point - what if the amount is enough that we cannot sign all the players we want

it very much looks like the FO is going to have to pay Kirk Cousins more than he's worth ... which is OK
but
if that amount is high enough that it prevents us from paying all the other players we want, it's a very interesting decision

No sure I missed the point when I already addressed it (see highlighted above)...... I am saying that it's a GMs job to make it work. But with our cap situation, our FO should be able to pay Cousins his market value and sign the players we reasonably want to resign.

I also find it funny that you are saying I am missing the point --- when you weren't even the person asking the question......

markshark84 wrote:No sure I missed the point when I already addressed it (see highlighted above)...... I am saying that it's a GMs job to make it work. But with our cap situation, our FO should be able to pay Cousins his market value and sign the players we reasonably want to resign.

It seems like they should be able to make it work. I would add too that I'm most concerned about having $$ available to re-sign our own players, especially young players that we've drafted. The idea that the FO should let Cousins go so we have more money to spend on free agents is nuts.